then by all means baptize away i guess jesus needed to be saved to,, i wonder if anyone told him ?
IS THERE ONLY WATER BAPTISM?
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There's a problem with that. Baptism with the Spirit was not a thing at this time. So, no one hearing His words would understand Him to mean anything other than water.
18 Because also Christ once for sin did suffer—righteous for unrighteous—that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 20who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah—an ark being preparing—in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 Also to which an antitype doth now save us—baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven—messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him.
Yeah, baptism isn't mentioned. Taking one or two verses and ignoring the rest is not sound exegesis. People could make up almost any doctrine doing that. Sound exegesis requires that we look at every single passage in the New Testament that pertains to salvation. I mean if we just take a passage or two, we could make any argument. For example, I could claim that we are saved by works and post Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
See, it doesn't say anything about faith, belief, baptism, or anything else. All it says is obey. Taking just a single passage, one could claim that people are saved by obedience and nothing else. After all, the passage says nothing of, faith, belief, or baptism. Are we going to pit this passage against Ephesian 2:8? Are we going to ignore it? Or are we going to look at this passage and Ephesians 2:8 and conclude that one must have faith and obey. You see that's exegesis. We take all of the passages we find and reconcile them. We draw a conclusion that aligns with every passage.
once again if your part of the bandwagon salvation by water baptism.. keep on marching . i could go to Hebrews but your mind is made up.. sorry water baptism follows salvation and not to be saved either . you feel free to claim as you like
That's an interesting reply. You said my mind is made up, yet you have not addressed a single point I've made, rather you've dismissed them. That would indicate that it is "your" mind that is made up, and no amount of Scriptural evidence is going to change that.
ok my reply
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
psst his mind was made up.. i dont follow water baptism salvation. i have addressed your point you just ignore it .. so looks like nothing left to discuss . im not going to budge when there is far more scripture salvation by grace through faith..
hebrews 9
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
hebrews 10:
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
im done good night
btw there are several doctrines i reject hands down Calvinism apostolic , catholic j.w and Mormons.. and anything else the is contrary to scripture. btw did you happen to notice i am the only one replying... could it be the rest dont want to waster there time..
Actually, you haven't addressed it. Yes, Paul may have had his mind made up, but he also was taught by Jesus. The statement shows the flaw in the reasoning. You said, "there is far more scripture salvation by grace through faith.. " As I pointed out, we need to look at all of the passages not just the ones that fit our theology. However, there is a reason why there are more passages about faith than baptism. The reason is that baptism was not a problem in the Bible, they did it. However, if you read Acts 15, you'll find that there were Jews from Jerusalem that were going behind Paul undercutting him ministry. They were telling his converts that faith was not enough. They were telling them that they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Much of Paul's letters are addressing this issue telling his converts that they just need faith and that they don't need to circumcised and keep the Law.
Your line of reasoning is like saying a car doesn't need wheels because the repair manual doesn't mention wheels when explaining how to fix the carburetor
yes i have time to move on im dusting my shoes off at you/
thats ok I DO NOT nor will not agree with what your saying... your playing with strange fire
Taken
Well-Known Member
Context.
2,000 + years ago, “MEN”, (adults), primarily (Jews, first), were being Taught, “a new better Testament”…
* An Offering of Salvation, (Before Mortal Death.)
* A handful of “MEN”, chosen, given, accepted, the Task, to Teach (this new Offering).
* Little by little, bit by bit, few by few…the Teaching Was spread.
* Anciently, Historically, Modernly, Humans Naturally “struggle with Knowledge”… they “HEAR”…but do NOT “SEE”, the immediate / “Effect / Or Understanding Thereof”.
* a child can be TOLD, watch …
I will throw a ball UP, a Plane is going UP…
The UP, is SEEN, UP becomes Understood.
Teaching, Shall come DOWN, is one thing, Understanding of DOWN becomes Realized, WHEN they “SEE” it come DOWN.
* an adult, an older child nearing adulthood…
Who have Learned the Knowledge “EFFECT”, “knowledge and Understanding” of a human, submerged, DOWN, Under Water… Results IN A Bodily Death…
Unless and Until, the Body IS “shortly, quickly”, Brought UP from out of the Water.
* Water Baptism, IS an Introduction, Prelude, Teaching, via, “WORD (Hearing), WORD (Agreeing), AND VISIBLE (Seeing)…
Of the Up, Down, Up… Teaching Concept…
Regarding…
* a Living man…UP / (alive)
* having Heard Gods Word…
* Agreeing / Trusting Gods Word… for man to lay DOWN “his” life unto God…
* Freely, the man Agreeing, Trusting, Gods Word, that that man shall Again RISE UP Alive, by the Promise, Authority, Promise OF God…
AND…the Man making that VOW, Before Witnesses….The Lord God, and Often, by standers, even a whole Crowd, such as a gathered church congregation.
* Where Two or Three ARE gathered…one man with the Lord God… IS Two gathered.
The Lord God and the man ARE witnesses…
To the man’s Word, Declaration, Vow of Belief, and Willingness to Promise his own Life unto Death To and for the Lord God…
IS Satisfactory For the Lord God to Raise UP that man, (PER Gods Timing)…
* Rapture, raised UP by Christ the Lord…
(Pertaining to men, WHO accepted Gods Offering)…
Before last days Tribulations are sent down from Heaven.
Or
* First Resurrection, raised UP by God…
(pertaining to men, WHO accepted Gods Offering)…
During last days Tribulations sent down from Heaven.
No Water “example” necessary or required.
* Present day “water baptisms”…continue…to be performed, for they, who require, EXAMPLES To SEE to believe.
* Acknowledging…humans continue to be born, generations of children, ignorant, unknowing, still learning, little by little, bit by bit… hearing and “being babes”…examples to “SEE”, resonates with them.
Context and perspective.
Water does not Save.
Salvation Given, Received, IS NOT a Visible Act that human men can SEE.
Salvation “Offering” IS by, through, of The Lord God unto a “living manKind of Being”…
(Not Offered, angels, animals, plants).
Glory to God,
Taken
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Show us the word "water" in Ephesians 4:5.
Ephesians 4:5 - ..one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 for the word drink(s) and see the connection with the Holy Spirit.
exactly water baptism salvation denies the the redeeming Blood of Jesus. which becomes works based salvation something man must do. Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
no water mentioned
In post 32 you said water baptism wasnt for salvation and here you are ,repeating it, we can establish its not for salvation.. OK but you still endorsed water baptism, so the question remains if we are to water baptized where are our instructions on how do it?
They didnt happen together in Mark 1:8 because the Holy Ghost wasnt given until Christ was risen...............[John 7:39 KJV] "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
It was together in Acts............[Acts 2:38 KJV] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
But look at this passage..........
[Acts 11:1 KJV] "And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God."
[Acts 11:15 KJV] "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."
[Acts 11:16 KJV] "Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."
Peter said the Holy Ghost was given them before water baptism and Peter even references Mark 1:8
google it gezz you just want to argue to prove your point. Jesus went under the water full immersion . how many times do you need to be told ? i dont sprinkle i usually go to the river or creek . maybe a baptistry at one of the local churches
Read the account of the Ephesians re-baptism in Acts 19 which I've posted below. In verse 3 when they were asked what baptism they had been baptized in, they responded John's baptism. Question: what was John's baptism? Was it in water?
They were then explained further about John's baptism in verse 4 and also about Christ. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus per verse 5. Question: what baptism was this? Was it in water? It doesn't say. It also said THEY were baptized. Were they baptized BY the Holy Ghost? No. In verse 6, after they were baptized in the Lord’s name, not the Holy Ghost baptized them in the Lord's name; it then says Paul laid his hands on them and THEN, the Holy Ghost came on them. How do you explain these passages of scripture if the claim is made that the one one baptism is not by water but by the Holy Ghost/Spirit? That logic would infer that they were baptized twice by the Holy Ghost, wouldn't it? Once per verse 5, and then again in verse 6 subsequent to the baptism in verse 5. Makes NO sense, or rather, about as much sense that tge one baptism in Ephesians is Spirit baptism versus water. Nor would the passages read correctly. It only makes sense that they were baptized in water unto John's baptism, and again baptized in water into Christ.
Acts 19:2-6
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So, I see that you ignored the scriptures I cited in post #52. Now in regard to Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 2 (No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit) reveals that they were not yet saved believers.
They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith in Christ, they were then (afterwards) baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so this is an exception and not the rule). It did signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present to lay hands on the Samaritans in Acts chapter 8. God's purpose there was to emphasize unity in the church. The Jews despised the Samaritans.
his baptism was external Christ baptism is eternal of the spirit ... question why was Jesus baptize?/ did he need salvation
Was John's baptism in water? YES
Was the Ephesian's re-baptism in the Lord's name in water? If YES, why? Why not the Holy Ghost then? Why did they get baptized in water again if there's only one baptism and it's not by water as you continuously and erroneously claim? Didn't the Holy Ghost fall on them after Paul laid his hands on them? Isn't that the baptism you claim to be the only one? If they believed Paul's preaching to them about Jesus, wouldn't that have been sufficient per your line of thinking instead of being immersed in water again, and then the Holy Ghost could have fallen on them then instead of having to get immersed in water again followed by Paul laying his hands on them? If belief is sufficient, Paul could have just laid his hands on them with no 2nd water immersion, unless their baptism into Christ was also in Spirit and not water? You make no sense nor can your flawed logic be used to explain Acts19 and the Ephesians 2nd baptism.
