"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[XtraPercept]

So did John:
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

I thought we had some agreement, but you reason like a pharisee; refusing to observe the definitions of words for understanding.

I state a direct Biblical truth, "God is all-powerful"

and you state in opposition, "He can't do what He said."

To which I reply, "He already does."

At which you insist, "no He does not, He did not mean what He says."

 

[saved by grace 101]

I thought we had some agreement, but you reason like a pharisee; refusing to observe the definitions of words for understanding.

I state a direct Biblical truth, "God is all-powerful"

and you state in opposition, "He can't do what He said."

To which I reply, "He already does."

At which you insist, "no He does not, He did not mean what He says."

I don't mind you claiming I reason as a Pharisee, John agreed with me, was he one too?
You have a head theology on this that is no ones reality. Only Jesus lived a sinless life on this earth. I don't think you even understand what would be required to reach sinless perfection on this earth

 

[BreadOfLife]

I cannot believe you wrote that! Paul is referring to the Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony when he states the law is the letter that kills the ministry of death and condemnation?
1) The non moral law/rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:9) Such law would NOT be as Paul described in 2Cor3:6-9 Law you can faultlessly obey you can indeed be justified by obeying, yet Paul states you cannot be justified by obeying the law. Why not? Well there's only the moral left!
Paul stated the law engraved in stone was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation(2Cor3:6-9), NOT the law written on parchments! The only law engraved in stone was the Ten Commandments.
Im sorry, but you are way outside of comfort zone here!

WOW. What a skewed and perverse view of 2 Cor. 3:6-9 . . .

Paul isn’t condemning the Commandments that were carved in stone is what kills. He is referring to the legalistic view of the Commandments and the rest of the Law – instead of following the spirit of the Law. Jesus made the SAME comparison when chastising the Pharisees

Jesus Himself implied that the ceremonial/ritual aspects of the Law were NOT possible to follow to the letter ALL the time because there are times when it is not prudent (Mark 2:23-28, Luke 13:15-16).

And to be honest, the words 'Ten Commandments' are for the old covenant, not the new.
I lived with some catholics once in a christian community, nice people, however, when it came to justification they struggled, as you do.

I don’t “struggle” with justification.
I adhere to what the Church teaches - which is also the Biblical teaching.

 

[saved by grace 101]

WOW. What a skewed and perverse view of 2 Cor. 3:6-9 . . .

Paul isn’t condemning the Commandments that were carved in stone is what kills. He is referring to the legalistic view of the Commandments and the rest of the Law – instead of following the spirit of the Law. Jesus made the SAME comparison when chastising the Pharisees

Jesus Himself implied that the ceremonial/ritual aspects of the Law were NOT possible to follow to the letter ALL the time because there are times when it is not prudent (Mark 2:23-28, Luke 13:15-16).

I don’t “struggle” with justification.
I adhere to what the Church teaches - which is also the Biblical teaching.

Of course Paul wasnt condemning the commandments. But if you rely on observing them for justification then they are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation.
Of course, Paul held that law to the pristene level it was set at, NOT a watered down version
IE
You have ceased dwelling on all impure thoughts haven't you? Your catechism states if you transgress one you have transgressed them all. And for you, your continued justification hinges on obeying them

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your church really should have explained it to you Heb10:15-18

Huh??
Those verses describe exactly what I explained to you:
The atoning Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Noe - get back to the topic.
If you want to attack Catholics - start another thread . . .

 

[saved by grace 101]

I don’t “struggle” with justification.
I adhere to what the Church teaches - which is also the Biblical teaching.

Which of the following is correct?

CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

2069: To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.

They are still in use today. the catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.



What does the bible say?



So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6



Which law is Paul talking about in the above? He goes on to tell us:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet/one of the Ten Commandmants.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7&8

 

[saved by grace 101]

Huh??
Those verses describe exactly what I explained to you:
The atoning Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Noe - get back to the topic.
If you want to attack Catholics - start another thread . . .

They say something else as well in the first part, something you omitted to mention

 

[JustMe]

Please post where I said what you stated above.

You stated:

"You preach we must obey commands, like the 10Cs and if you violate just one of them, do you think your salvation is in jeopardy?"


Please give the post number where I stated that if we violate just one commandment our salvation is in jeapardy.


Waiting...

I got your answer then to mean, no, judging from the inferences I gathered on this subject from your posts. Thanks

 

[BreadOfLife]

They say something else as well in the first part, something you omitted to mention

WRONG.

I didn’t “fail” to do anything.

I explicitly discussed the first part about putting His Laws in the hearts of the people in an earlier post. This is referring to NOT being legalistic about His Laws – but how they should be a PART of us in everything we do, think or say.

Which of the following is correct?

CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

2069: To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.

What’s wrong with you? What part of that do you NOT understand?

It’s NOT saying that you “lose” your justification if you violate a Commandment. If that were the case, everybody would be in big trouble. It says the justified man - NOT the man who is trying to keep his justification.

There so much more to add – but I won’t go into it here. You have hijacked this thread and gone off-topic, which is against forum rules. Take it to the Christian Debate Section.

Any f If you want to discuss this further – START A NEW THREAD . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

I got your answer then to mean, no, judging from the inferences I gathered on this subject from your posts. Thanks

What's the problem JustMe?

Can't find the post where I ALLEGEDLY stated what you said??

P'LEASE BE CAREFUL WHEN QUOTING ME.

 

[saved by grace 101]

WRONG.

I didn’t “fail” to do anything.

I explicitly discussed the first part about putting His Laws in the hearts of the people in an earlier post. This is referring to NOT being legalistic about His Laws – but how they should be a PART of us in everything we do, think or say.

What’s wrong with you? What part of that do you NOT understand?

It’s NOT saying that you “lose” your justification if you violate a Commandment. If that were the case, everybody would be in big trouble. It says the justified man - NOT the man who is trying to keep his justification.

There so much more to add – but I won’t go into it here. You have hijacked this thread and gone off-topic, which is against forum rules. Take it to the Christian Debate Section.

Any f If you want to discuss this further – START A NEW THREAD . . .

Paul said you die to the law, that is not what your catechism stated, just the opposite. So your continued justification does not hinge on obeying the TC?

 

[GodsGrace]

I got your answer then to mean, no, judging from the inferences I gathered on this subject from your posts. Thanks

JustMe

STOP misquoting me.

It's not my responsibility if you don't understand the English language.

You are not to INFER anything....
You are not to GATHER anything....

If you wish to post to me... please read my posts carefully and STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I don't have a lot of time here and don't wish to spend it CORRECTING YOU.

 

[marks]

Paul said you die to the law, that is not what your catechism stated, just the opposite

We die to the Law, but are not lawless. We have a much higher Law that we serve, the Law of Love. Like Paul wrote in Romans 7, when we come to Christ, then return to the Law, it's like reuniting with the corpse of our dead husband. Ick!

Paul calls this in Galatians "fallen from grace", and to be sure, "by faith in Christ we have access into the grace in which we stand", not "into the obedience of Law by which we stand".

Paul also wrote of "the motions of sin, which were by the Law, did work in our members . . ." Law provokes the flesh to sin, and does not give us righteousness. The Law being a single thing (all that You say we will do) is not kept by anyone, everyone is a lawbreaker.

Much love!

 

[saved by grace 101]

We die to the Law, but are not lawless. We have a much higher Law that we serve, the Law of Love. Like Paul wrote in Romans 7, when we come to Christ, then return to the Law, it's like reuniting with the corpse of our dead husband. Ick!

Paul calls this in Galatians "fallen from grace", and to be sure, "by faith in Christ we have access into the grace in which we stand", not "into the obedience of Law by which we stand".

Paul also wrote of "the motions of sin, which were by the Law, did work in our members . . ." Law provokes the flesh to sin, and does not give us righteousness. The Law being a single thing (all that You say we will do) is not kept by anyone, everyone is a lawbreaker.

Much love!

Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
That only leaves what is holy, just and good(Rom7:12)
And that has been placed in our hearts and minds, so in our hearts we do not want to be lawless.
Sadly, many believe they have to be good enough for God. They cannot be, the standard is far too high.

 

[saved by grace 101]

We die to the Law, but are not lawless. We have a much higher Law that we serve, the Law of Love. Like Paul wrote in Romans 7, when we come to Christ, then return to the Law, it's like reuniting with the corpse of our dead husband. Ick!

Paul calls this in Galatians "fallen from grace", and to be sure, "by faith in Christ we have access into the grace in which we stand", not "into the obedience of Law by which we stand".

Paul also wrote of "the motions of sin, which were by the Law, did work in our members . . ." Law provokes the flesh to sin, and does not give us righteousness. The Law being a single thing (all that You say we will do) is not kept by anyone, everyone is a lawbreaker.

Much love!

Good post by the way

 

[MonoBiblical]

Something that came to me that blew my socks off:

"Before Abraham Was, I AM" (Jn.8:58)

I had never understood this but suddenly tonight I believe the meaning came to me. Why did Jesus say I AM? Why didn't he just say I was? I think the answer is that God inhabits eternity. He cannot say I was, or I will be as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He never changes. God is outside time!

He didn't say I was because it wouldn't be proper Greek syntax. But it is strange the way [it] turns out in english. Prior to Abraham to have been becoming of it, I am. Prior Abraham rejoicing, Jesus was "the light of the world" or rather a "light of a world". This so impressed some of the tribe of Judah to pick up stones to throw at him. This was thought somehow blasphemy.

 

[JustMe]

What's the problem JustMe?

Can't find the post where I ALLEGEDLY stated what you said??

P'LEASE BE CAREFUL WHEN QUOTING ME.

Copy that, O wise one. Know thou self, it is invigorating for the soul

 

[XtraPercept]

I don't mind you claiming I reason as a Pharisee, John agreed with me, was he one too?
You have a head theology on this that is no ones reality. Only Jesus lived a sinless life on this earth. I don't think you even understand what would be required to reach sinless perfection on this earth

You contend to limit the power of God, saying what He cannot do. Neither John nor I say such.

Jeremiah 32:17-19 details the God of Whom I speak:

17 ‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.
18 You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them, O great and mighty God, whose name is the LORD of hosts,
19 great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the children of man, rewarding each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds.

I say I am forgiven and God smiles upon me as He guides me morning to morning.

What God tells me is very clear and easy to understand. I try to share it, but it makes sense how Jesus spoke truth to everyone and they were usually amazed or furious.

You really see yourself among the Disciples and not the crowd? I was in the crowd until only recently. I had to reject everything the crowds believe to see the truth.

 

[marks]

Sadly, many believe they have to be good enough for God. They cannot be, the standard is far too high.

I've fallen into that trap before, I called it having a broken faith. It's just no good! It's only in His grace that we stand!

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

John14:15 refers to Christ's commands in the gospels. I thought we agreed, the more you love others the more you are in line with those commands
I believe it is not obligatory to obey the TC?
Have you not read what I have previously stated? The law which was once engraved in stone is now in the heart of a believer. We do not have to say now, you MUST obey the TC, it is a case of believers wanting to live in their heart as God desires them to live. You MUST old coven ant, you want to, New Covenant.
You can only die to the power of the law if you die to justification of obeying it
Concerning your verses from Galatians
Do we then make void the law by faith/righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law? God forbid: Yea: We establish the law
I have a question
If you believed as a christian you have no justification of obeying the moral law, would you then happily go out and sin as much as you liked?

The Law is in the heart,
but the commandments must still be obeyed.

You never address the ceremonial, civil and moral law.

The MORAL LAW MUST be obeyed.

If you want to, fine.
If you do not want to or infringe the Moral Law, you have sinned and must ask forgiveness.