Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

[Adventageous]

I do not need to read your books when they like you have done in the above post, they will have conflated the creature with the Creator.

You can read more here:

Alive

god-of-the-living.blogspot.com

You of course do not have to read the materials if that is your decision.

Please consider the following in relation to God, and Godhead:

"Notice “His person” (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3 KJB), “form of God” (Php. 2:6 KJB), “shape” (Jhn. 5:37 KJB), “image” (Gen. 1:26,27; Heb. 1:3 KJB), “likeness” (Gen. 1:26,27 KJB), “being” (Act. 17:28 KJB), having “parts” (Exo. 33:23 KJB), has a very real movable “Throne” on which He sits (Dan. 7:9-10; Rev. 4-5 KJB, &c.), has “the hair of his head like the pure wool” (Dan. 7:9 KJB), has a “face” (Gen. 32:30; Exo. 33:11,20; Deu. 5:4, 34:10; Mat. 18:10; Rev. 20:11 KJB), with “eyes” (2 Chr. 16:9; Pro. 22:12; Rev. 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB), with “nostrils” (2 Sam. 22:9,16; Psa. 18:15 KJB), able to hear and has “ears” (Num. 11:18, 14:28; 1 Sam. 8:21; 2 Sam. 22:7; 2 Kin. 19:28; 2 Chr. 7:15; Psa. 18:6, 34:15, 130:2; Isa. 5:9, 37:29; Jam. 5:4; 1 Pet. 3:12 KJB).

God is a Soul (Living Being with form; Jer. 5:9 KJB), and is a Spirit (thus having a mind (Intelligence), Mat. 12:28 KJB), has a “mouth” (Num. 12:8; Deu. 8:3; Jos. 9:4; 1 Kin. 13:21; Psa. 33:6; Pro. 2:6; Isa. 1:20, 40:5, 58:14, 62:2; Jer. 9:12,20, 23:16; Mic. 4:4; Rev. 1:16 KJB), has a “tongue” (Psa. 35:28, 66:17, 71:24, 119:172 KJB; the Son praises the Father; Isa. 30:27 KJB), has “lips” (Job 11:5, 23:12; Psa. 89:34; Isa. 30:27 KJB), has “teeth” (Gen. 49:12 KJB) and expresses emotions (Grieved; Gen. 6:6; Jdg. 10:16; Psa. 78:40, 95:10; Eze. 16:43; Heb. 3:10 KJB; Jealous / love; Exo. 34:14; Deu. 4:24, 32:21; Psa. 78:58, 79:5; Isa. 42:13; Eze. 38:19; Zep. 3:8; Zec. 8:2; 1 Cor. 10:22 KJB; Anger; Num. 12:9; Deu. 32:22; Jdg. 10:7; 2 Sam. 22:8; Job 19:11; Psa. 2:5, 7:11, 21:9, 90:11; Isa. 28:21, 30:30, 66:15; Jer. 30:24; Lam. 2:3, 3:43; Eze. 5:13, 38:18; Hos. 12:14; Nah. 1:6 KJB; Hates evil; Psa. 5:5-6, 11:5; Jer. 44:4; Rev. 2:6,15 KJB; takes vengeance / justice; Deu. 32:34-35,41-43; Psa. 94:1; Isa. 1:24, 34:8, 66:6; Jer. 46:10; Amo. 2:13; Nah. 1:2; Heb. 10:30 KJB), with organs of speech and breath (Num. 12:8; Psa. 18:8; Isa. 30:27-28; Rev. 1:15 KJB), speaks with a language that is understood (Exo. 3:4, 19:19, 20:19,22; Lev. 1:1; Num. 7:89, 12:4, 22:9; Deu. 4:12,33,36, 5:24-26; 1 Kin. 19:12-13; Psa. 68:33; Jer. 25:30; Eze. 43:6; Joe. 2:11, 3:16; Amo. 1:2; Act. 7:31; Heb. 12:19,26 KJB), laughs and ‘sleeps’ (Psa. 2:4, 59:8, 78:65 KJB), sings (Zep. 3:17 KJB), and rejoices (Deu. 28:63, 30:9 KJB).

God has “shoulders” (Deu. 33:12 KJB), wears garments (Job 29:14 KJB), “whose garment was white as snow” (Dan. 7:9 KJB), wears a crown/s (Isa. 62:3; Rev. 19:12 KJB), and sometimes the Son dresses as priest (Dan. 10:5-9; Rev. 1:13-16 KJB), and sometimes the Son dresses as King (Rev. 17:14, 19:16 KJB), and sometimes the Son dresses as Warrior (Exo. 15:3, 17:16; Jos. 5:13-15; Isa. 66:16; Jer. 14:9, 21:5; Zec. 14:3 KJB).

God has “arms” (Isa. 51:9, 53:1; Jhn. 12:38 KJB), has a “right hand” (Rev. 5:1; Act. 7:55-56 KJB), so has “hands” (Gen. 49:24; Exo. 33:22; Deu. 33:27; Psa. 21:8, 74:11, 89:13, 118:16; Isa. 52:10; Hab. 3:4 KJB), having “fingers” (Exo. 8:19, 31:18; Deu. 9:10; Psa. 8:3; Luk. 11:20 KJB), utilizes weapons (Deu. 32:23; Job 19:12; Psa. 7:12-13, 21:12, 64:7; Isa. 34:5; Jer. 50:25; Lam. 2:4, 3:12-13; Hab. 3:9 KJB).

He is able to be looked upon, “to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone” (Rev. 4:2 KJB), having His own “nature” (Gal. 4:8 KJB), having also “back parts” (Exo. 33:21-23 KJB, speaking of the Son, but remember the Son is in the “express image” of the Father; Jer. 18:17 KJB), has a “heart” (Gen. 6:6 KJB), and “loins” ([H4975]; waist to upper thighs, see 1 Kin. 18:46 KJB), Eze. 1:27 KJB), able to sit on posterior (Dan. 7:9; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3, 10:12; Rev. 4:2 KJB) and even a “divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4 KJB), having “feet” (Rev. 1:15 KJB); see also “under his feet” (Exo. 24:10 KJB, speaking of the Son, as the Son is in the “express image” of the Father; Psa. 18:9 KJB), and so walks (Gen. 3:8; Psa. 104:3 KJB).

Some, after reading the many texts just presented, will come to the erroneous man-made conclusion, that those texts are simply anthropomorphisms (that which seeks to describe God in merely human terms / thinking), but that reverses the texts themselves! Instead of the texts of Genesis, which clearly state that mankind was made in the “image” and “likeness” of God (Gen. 1:26-27 KJB), these other persons turn the texts around on their head (upside down) and say God is merely pictured as like having mankind’s image and likeness, though has no actual “form”, “shape”, “body” or “parts” at all! What a vaporization of the eternal Living God and Father! What utter abominable and perverse erasure through fallible words of mankind! God’s perfectly inspired and preserved word (Psa. 12:6-7 KJB) says one thing, and lo, in contrast, ‘scholarly’ ‘good’, ‘godly’ ‘pastoral’ mankind says another. Whom is the Christian to believe?" [pages 60-61]

Thus, instead of the creature (Adam) being made in God's image & likeness, those that anthropomorphize those texts, are the ones who actually make God into mankind's image and likeness. It is they who have (as you have said) "conflated the creature with the Creator." In so doing, they also vaporize the eternal throne of Deity, and the physical nature of Heaven (3rd) itself into 'airy' non-things, and so vaporizing the 'devil' himself into merely an idea.

 

[Adventageous]

How can 1,000 years come unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)? Both Paul, in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that the day of the Lord will be both an unexpected and sudden event. You are blatantly contradicting not only what is written in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but also 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 about the day of the Lord.

Since the 1000 years are the "day of the LORD", it has a beginning, and an ending, an 'evening' (earth in darkness) followed by 'morning' (saints in heaven, where all is light and no darkness at all), followed by 'evening' (back to earth in darkness to close out the 'day').

When Jesus returns in the second advent, the beginning of the "day of the LORD", all of the living human wicked / lost are destroyed (put to death) "with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thes. 2:8).

The already dead wicked (like Cain, et al.; except for some in the special resurrection already mentioned previously), remain dead until the 1000 years are finished at the 3rd advent: "... the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished ..." (Rev. 20:5), and (vs 7) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (vs 8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (vs 9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The lost dead, who had remained dead at the second advent (like Cain), and those lost who were alive and killed at the 2nd advent of Jesus, shall all lie together in death for 1000 years, and be raised together at the ending of the 1000 years to face executive punishment, annihilation.

Since scripure says, "the dead know not any thing", this means they have no knowledge of the passage of time in death. It comes as "sudden destruction" and as a "thief" to them. For the lost since the time of Cain the 3rd Advent of Jesus will be as the very next moment to them, and for those living lost that are slain at Jesus' 2nd advent, the 1000 years will not be remembered by them, and so when Jesus returns at the 3rd advent, it is still as the 2nd advent to them. Only to the living saints that lived through all of it, will it be recognizable as the 3rd advent, when all of the lost are consumed together.

Please re-read the texts I provided in their context, and see the multiphase events. Thank you.

 

[Adventageous]

Then the kingdom, authority, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be delivered to the people of the holy ones of the Most High Da 7:27.

And 2nd coming context and reference "under all of Heaven" denoting the Earth is the habitation of the Saints is also problematic?

Daniel 7 is built in a repeating structure in 4 phases.

1. Dan. 7:2-14,15 - the vision, symbols (Daniel) & vs 1 intro​

2. Dan. 7:16-18 - the vision entirely summed up briefly by (Gabriel)​

3. Dan. 7:19-22 - the vision questioned (Daniel)​

4. Dan. 7:23-27 - the vision explained more detail (Gabriel) & vs 28 outro.​

Dan. 7:22 has 4 time periods in a single sentence.

1(a.). Dan. 7:22a - "until" refers to the previous time period (AD 538-1798, or 1,260 years)

2(b.). Dan. 7:22b - "the Ancient of days came" is the Person / Being of the Father moving from Holy place in Heaven (where He had met twith Jesus upon His ascension) back to the Most Holy Place of heaven (to begin the antitypical day of atonement; ending of the 2,300; Dan. 7:9-10,13; 8:13-14,26 in 1844)

3(c.). "judgment was given to the saints of the most high" - during the 1000 years in heaven

4(d.). "the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" is the end of the 1000 years period, or day of the LORD, when the wicked are all finally consumed unto ashes & smoke, and God recreates the earth and its first heaven.

​

(Dan. 7:22c) Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.​

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Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.​

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Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

The judgment by the saints, takes place during the 1000 years in Heaven (aka "glory", see 2 Pet. 1:17).

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?​

​

Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.​

Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.​

Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.​

Psa 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.​

Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.​

Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;​

Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;​

Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;​

Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.​

Only after the 1000 years (limited) and the judgment of the saints amening what is written in the word of God in heaven, do the saints "inherit" the earth made new everlastingly (eternal).

(Dan. 7:22d) Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.​

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Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.​

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Rev 20:5;p But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ...​

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Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

​

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

That judgment already took place during the 1000 years, and now at its end, comes the execution of the judgment in their destruction on earth, which burns up the whole crust of the earth, as it was in the days of Noah' water flood. Reading straight through:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

That "sea" is the lake of fire which burns itself out., see chapter 48 - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

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Isa_47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.​

Mal_4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.​

 

[Hiddenthings]

Daniel 7 is built in a repeating structure in 4 phases.

1. Dan. 7:2-14,15 - the vision, symbols (Daniel) & vs 1 intro​

2. Dan. 7:16-18 - the vision entirely summed up briefly by (Gabriel)​

3. Dan. 7:19-22 - the vision questioned (Daniel)​

4. Dan. 7:23-27 - the vision explained more detail (Gabriel) & vs 28 outro.​

Dan. 7:22 has 4 time periods in a single sentence.

1(a.). Dan. 7:22a - "until" refers to the previous time period (AD 538-1798, or 1,260 years)

2(b.). Dan. 7:22b - "the Ancient of days came" is the Person / Being of the Father moving from Holy place in Heaven (where He had met twith Jesus upon His ascension) back to the Most Holy Place of heaven (to begin the antitypical day of atonement; ending of the 2,300; Dan. 7:9-10,13; 8:13-14,26 in 1844)

3(c.). "judgment was given to the saints of the most high" - during the 1000 years in heaven

4(d.). "the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" is the end of the 1000 years period, or day of the LORD, when the wicked are all finally consumed unto ashes & smoke, and God recreates the earth and its first heaven.

​

(Dan. 7:22c) Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.​

​

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.​

Wow Advent, I mean wow wee! Talk about doing violence to the text.

“Judgment Was Given to the Saints of the Most High”

The statement “judgment was given to the saints of the Most High” is not an incidental phrase, nor is it symbolic of a private heavenly reward. It is a deliberate echo of Daniel 7:18 and must be read within the judicial framework of Scripture. Judgment here is delegated authority, not mere discernment, and it is given only after a defined process has taken place.

Daniel makes the order unmistakable: “Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” (Daniel 7:22)

Judgment is first given to the saints, and only then do they possess the kingdom. This immediately implies that the saints are no longer mortal, no longer probationary, and no longer awaiting a verdict. They have already passed through judgment themselves.

Scripture confirms that principle elsewhere: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.” (1 Peter 4:17)

God does not entrust judgment to those who have not first been judged. The saints cannot execute judgment while still awaiting their own. Therefore, the phrase “judgment was given to the saints” presupposes resurrection, accountability, and justification.

Only then do the saints take up the role described in the Psalms: “To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints.” (Psalm 149:7–9)

This is not poetic devotion; it is judicial action. The judgments are written, predefined by God, and administered by glorified saints acting as His agents. Zechariah reinforces the same outcome:

“And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.” (Zechariah 14:5)

Come where, Advent, at the end of the thousand years to make such judgments? Nonsense!

The saints come with Christ to establish order, not to escape the earth. Their role mirrors what angels do now, executing divine will but unlike angels, the saints will do so openly among the nations.

To suggest that saints are already reigning in heaven empties these passages of meaning. Judgment cannot be both ongoing and complete, nor can it be delegated before it is concluded. God’s order is consistent:

judged → immortalised → entrusted → ruling.

Thus, “judgment was given to the saints of the Most High” stands as powerful evidence for a future, earthly reign of resurrected, glorified believers, men and women who were first judged by God and then honoured with the execution of His righteous judgments.

@Brakelite - I'm sorry but you and Advent have the activities of the Saints during the 1000 years so wrong it could not be more obvious.

The irony in your teaching is that you return only after all the work of the true saints has already been done, after they have been in the midst of the nations, openly working righteousness among them. By your own teaching, you make yourself entirely redundant.

 

[ewq1938]

Allow me to reply once more. Reiterating, with additional material.

I will come again,

(Location is Earth)

and receive you unto myself;

(Location is Earth)

that where I am,

(Location is Earth)

there ye may be also

(Location is Earth)

Not one single word about going back to heaven.

 

[Hiddenthings]

After this I will return, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down. Acts 15:16.

The Apostle held an understanding which Advent rejects.

Beyond the prophetic significance of these verses from Amos, they are remarkably relevant to the very time in which James quotes them before the assembled brethren. Although Amos came from the southern kingdom, he was specifically commissioned as a prophet to the northern kingdom. During his ministry, the northern kingdom’s days were numbered due to its consistent refusal to heed the Word of Yahweh.

Amos declared that Yahweh would “raise up the tabernacle that is fallen.” Yet at the time of his prophecy, the tabernacle of David had not actually fallen; it was still flourishing in many respects. The southern kingdom itself would continue for over 130 years after the northern kingdom’s destruction. In context, Amos was predicting that the southern kingdom, like its northern counterpart, would eventually disintegrate and, at a later point in history, be restored.

When James cited Amos, the first part of the prophecy had already been fulfilled: David’s tabernacle—his houses and dwelling places—had been laid low, first by the Babylonians and then under the iron rule of Rome. By referencing this prophecy, James indicated that Yahweh’s faithful saints were anticipating the restoration of all twelve tribes to David’s throne, as well as the inclusion of the Gentiles into the way of salvation, before the return of Christ to establish the kingdom.

Restoration of the Tabernacle of David

“After this” This refers to the divinely appointed period for calling individuals to God’s eternal purpose. Two thousand years were to pass while this work continued, until the “set time to favour Zion” arrived (Psalm 102:13), and the day of opportunity was complete.

“I will return” God would intervene in the ongoing oppression of Israel to fulfill His plan: the re-establishment of the Davidic throne (cf. Jeremiah 12:15). James cites this prophecy at the Jerusalem conference to affirm the second advent of the Lord Jesus, at the close of the Gentile times (Acts 17:31), when both the natural and spiritual children of God will be restored. In context, Jeremiah 12:15 shows that Judah will be gathered from among the Gentiles (v. 14), and that the Gentiles themselves will embrace God’s name (vv. 16–17). James’ reference to the “return” points forward to the Lord’s return and the restoration of His people.

“And will build again” This occurs as a consequence of the calling of the Gentiles (v. 14; Amos 9:11–12). By quoting Jeremiah 12:15, James emphasizes that from the beginning, Yahweh intended to include Gentiles in His salvation. Therefore, the apostolic church should not resist the Spirit’s guidance in the preliminary work of calling Gentiles.

“The tabernacle of David” The Greek term skenen, meaning tent, signifies a humble dwelling, likely representing the fallen state of David’s temple. Historically, it denotes the dominion established under the Davidic covenant (2 Samuel 7), where God’s laws were respected and His worship observed. Prophetically, it points to the New Covenant and the inclusion of Gentiles in the hope of Israel, without the restrictions of the Mosaic tabernacle.

“Which is fallen down” The tabernacle fell because of the apostasy and wickedness of the people. The last king to sit on David’s throne, Zedekiah, was warned:

“Thou [Zedekiah], profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, Thus saith Adonai Yahweh; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.” (Ezekiel 21:25–27, ESV)

Since then, no son of David has succeeded to the throne. James reminded his audience that the full restoration will occur only at the Lord Jesus’ return.

“And I will build again the ruins thereof” This refers to the future work of God. Present attempts by the Jews to re-establish their nation will ultimately fail under the overwhelming force from the north (Ezekiel 38). True national resurrection requires the breath of life from the Messiah. Christ will re-establish Zion and restore Davidic dominion.

“And I will set it up” The restored kingdom will form the foundation of the Millennium, a permanent establishment that returns it to its intended glory (Jeremiah 17:25; 23:5; 30:9; 33:15, 17, 21–22; Ezekiel 34:23–25).

Jeremiah 23:5 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.”​

Jeremiah 33:15, 17, 21–22 “In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David…; There shall not fail a man to sit on the throne of Israel…; For thus says the LORD: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel​

Ezekiel 34:23–25 “And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them… I will make a covenant of peace with them.”​

 

[Hiddenthings]

I will come again,

(Location is Earth)

and receive you unto myself;

(Location is Earth)

that where I am,

(Location is Earth)

there ye may be also

(Location is Earth)

Not one single word about going back to heaven.

John 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

I go - to Golgotha (cf. John 13:36), to prepare a place of sacrifice, a location akin to the mercy-seat, where humanity might meet with God.

I WILL COME BACK - Just as the High Priest returned to the congregation with a special blessing on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 9:23; Heb. 9:28), so Christ will return.

WHERE I AM - That is, in my Father’s house. More precisely, this refers to him sitting on David’s throne (2 Sam. 7:13–14) in Jerusalem (Isa. 2:2–4; 9:6–7; Luke 1:32–33)

The Old Testament prophecies thoroughly refute their teaching, as there is simply no Scriptural basis to support it.

 

[Adventageous]

I will come again,

(Location is Earth)

and receive you unto myself;

(Location is Earth)

that where I am,

(Location is Earth)

there ye may be also

(Location is Earth)

Not one single word about going back to heaven.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

Context, context, context and you missed the words at the beginning of verse 3, and you didn't even use ellipses, "And if I go and prepare a place for you ..."

Go? Go from where? Earth / world. Go to where? 3rd Heaven, back to the Father's house. Jesus is to leave the earth / world to "go" and "prepare a place" not on earth, even among the Father's house, are "many mansions" (unfallen worlds, large spacious furnished places to dwell):

... I [Jesus]​

will [future tense to the first advent & promise]​

come [from where? Heaven 3rd, "my Father's house", "a place" he had gone "to"]​

again [to the world in a second advent; Does it say he lands on earth at that time? No. 1 Thes. 4:17 clearly states He (Jesus) would be "in the air", or 1st Heaven, not on land at the second advent.]​

and [in addition to, moreover, tied to the previous "and" material before it in a chain of events]​

receive [they move to Him "in the air", not He to them on the ground; as the other texts cited state, that He sends angels to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven "up" to Himself.]​

you [saints / disciples]​

unto [going from earthbound to heaven rising as being gathered by Jesus' holy messengers that came with Him]​

myself [Jesus, located at that point in the 1st Heaven, "in the air", not on the ground];​

that [effect of cause of previous events]​

where [location, "in the air", "up" from the ground, above, over all, which is how every eye shall see him]​

I am [Jesus existence at that time, "in the air", "up", '1st Heaven', yet whose mind is always in the third Heaven upon the Father's will / heart / mind],​

there [location, "in the air", "up" from the ground, having all been gathered together "unto" Jesus "up" above the ground]​

ye [saints / disciples]​

may [possibility by providence and salvation / redemption]​

be [location, exist, dwell "in the air", "up" from the ground of this wicked world]​

also [in addition to myself (Jesus) existing in this way, "in the air", "up" from the ground of this wicked world.]​

and [in addition to, moreover, tied to the previous "and" material before it in a chain of events]​

whither [location, 3rd heaven]​

I [Jesus, as Head of the Body]​

go [leaving earth / world to another place not on earth]​

ye [saints / disciples]​

know [for they knew the location of Jesus' destination, for He had told them, that He had come from the Father in Heaven (3rd) and was going back to the Father in Heaven (3rd)]​

and [in addition to, moreover, tied to the previous "and" material before it in a chain of events]​

the [definite article, specific]​

way [Jesus is the way to live, the manner / example of how to get to the same destination / condition as Jesus]​

ye [saints / disciples]​

know [by experience of having been with Jesus]​

Nothing about touching the earth / land in the 2nd Advent.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

Context, context, context and you missed the words at the beginning of verse 3, and you didn't even use ellipses, "And if I go and prepare a place for you ..."

Go? Go from where? Earth / world. Jesus is to leave the earth / world to "go" and "prepare a place" not on earth, even among the Father's house, are "many mansions" (unfallen worlds, large spacious furnished places to dwell):

... I [Jesus]​

will [future tense to the first advent & promise]​

come [from where? Heaven 3rd, "my Father's house", "a place" he had gone "to"]​

again [to the world in a second advent; Does it say he lands on earth at that time? No. 1 Thes. 4:17 clearly states He (Jesus) would be "in the air", or 1st Heaven, not on land at the second advent.]​

and [in addition to, moreover, tied to the previous "and" material before it in a chain of events]​

receive [they move to Him "in the air", not He to them on the ground; as the other texts cited state, that He sends angels to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven "up" to Himself.]​

you [saints / disciples]​

unto [going from earthbound to heaven rising as being gathered by Jesus' holy messengers that came with Him]​

myself [Jesus, located at that point in the 1st Heaven, "in the air", not on the ground];​

that [effect of cause of previous events]​

where [location, "in the air", "up" from the ground, above, over all, which is how every eye shall see him]​

I am [Jesus existence at that time, "in the air", "up", '1st Heaven', yet whose mind is always in the third Heaven upon the Father's will / heart / mind],​

there [location, "in the air", "up" from the ground, having all been gathered together "unto" Jesus "up" above the ground]​

ye [saints / disciples]​

may [possibility by providence and salvation / redemption]​

be [location, exist, dwell "in the air", "up" from the ground of this wicked world]​

also [in addition to myself (Jesus) existing in this way, "in the air", "u" from the ground of this wicked world.]​

and [in addition to, moreover, tied to the previous "and" material before it in a chain of events]​

whither [location, 3rd heaven]​

I [Jesus, as Head of the Body]​

go [leaving earth / world to another place not on earth]​

ye [saints / disciples]​

know [for they knew the location of Jesus' destination, for He had told them, that He had come from the Father in Heaven (3rd) and was oing back to the Father in Heaven (3rd)]​

and [in addition to, moreover, tied to the previous "and" material before it in a chain of events]​

the [definite article, specific]​

way [Jesus is the way to live, the manner / example of how to get to the same destination / condition as Jesus]​

ye [saints / discples]​

know [by experience of having been with Jesus]​

Nothing about touching the earth in the 2nd Advent.

The irony is that the text makes no mention of Jesus returning to Heaven to rule, nor of a third advent.

Yet, as you noted, you are not here to defend your own integrity, so you are free to say whatever you wish and remain blameless in your own eyes.

It's terrible exegesis that you can assign your own narrative to individual words and have the arrogance to think you can get away with it.

For instance, provide evidence that "in the air" means 1st Heaven? You are just making stuff up to suite your own confirmation bias.

 

[Adventageous]

John 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

I go - to Golgotha (cf. John 13:36), to prepare a place of sacrifice, a location akin to the mercy-seat, where humanity might meet with God.

I WILL COME BACK - Just as the High Priest returned to the congregation with a special blessing on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 9:23; Heb. 9:28), so Christ will return.

WHERE I AM - That is, in my Father’s house. More precisely, this refers to him sitting on David’s throne (2 Sam. 7:13–14) in Jerusalem (Isa. 2:2–4; 9:6–7; Luke 1:32–33)

The Old Testament prophecies thoroughly refute their teaching, as there is simply no Scriptural basis to support it.

You think Jhn. 14 is referring to Calvary, crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[Adventageous]

The irony is that the text makes no mention of Jesus returning to Heaven to rule, nor of a third advent.

This is like saying John 1:1 makes no mention of Jesus' second nature, of humanity. Just because one verse does not describe the fullness of events, does not mean those events are not spelled out elsewhere in conjunction.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You think Jhn. 14 is referring to Calvary, crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus?

No - if you looked at John 13:36 you will see the language is similar.

John 13:36 “Simon Peter said to him, ‘Lord, where are you going?’ Jesus answered, ‘Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.’”

After the Lord has ascended Peter will walk in Christ ministry and experience a similar death.

When Christ returns for the second time, He will grant immortality to His saints, and they will reign from Jerusalem.

You cannot run from the OT Prophecies!

 

[Hiddenthings]

This is like saying John 1:1 makes no mention of Jesus' second nature, of humanity.

That is because Jesus did not have a second nature Advent! Boy, imagine getting you to try and prove Hypostasis - now that would be something to behold!...or not!

Even your examples contain error!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Adventageous

Clearly you do not know how Jesus was given Life (Divine Nature!)

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).

Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).

Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

“I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).

You have some major doctrinal issues to contend with especially when you cross references these verses with Romans 1:1-4

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh (100% Human!) 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:1–4.

God raised Christ and blessed him with immortality and with Divine nature (with Power)

If you cannot distinguish between Christ in the flesh and the exalted, glorified Christ, you really should refrain from posting on Revelation 20 and go back to the drawing board.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Adventageous, if in your argument you were to deny Christ’s life, his divine nature at the resurrection, you have, in effect, denied it for yourself as well.

Hebrews 7:16 "Who has become (not inherent) a high priest not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.”

Who gave Jesus this indestructible life?

Hebrews 10:20 “By a new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his (Christ's) flesh.”

Why through his flesh? What did God do in the Flesh of Christ that opened the way to Life?

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Where did God place His Life? How was it placed there? What did God do to the Nature of Christ that introduced this LIFE?

Romans 8:11 “If the Spirit of him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he (God) who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

AND

Romans 2:7 – “…to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”

Did God give Christ eternal life?

If you say no? BUT what is you said yes

 

[ewq1938]

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.​

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

Context, context, context and you missed the words at the beginning of verse 3, and you didn't even use ellipses, "And if I go and prepare a place for you ..."

Again, that's BEFORE his coming. I kept the context but you have not. He clearly said when he comes back to Earth, we will be THERE on Earth with him but SDA doctrine forbids this so what is said in the verses cannot be accepted.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Adventageous Romans 8:11 is a difficult passage for you to deal with, I’m afraid. I have already removed what knowledge of John 1:1–4 you thought you had and removed the foundation upon which your gospel rests, yet you have offered no satisfactory response to the plain teaching of these texts. Scripture must not be wrested in an attempt to deny Christ the eternal life granted to him by Yahweh, because to do so ultimately undermines your own hope. The life bestowed upon Christ at his resurrection is the very same life believers look to receive at his return. I'm sure you will try in vain - but something tells me you will take a second look!

You have already considered the consequences of this belief, I'm sure.

 

[Adventageous]

Wow Advent, I mean wow wee! Talk about doing violence to the text.

No. Your response has nearly entirely misrepresented what I have said.

“Judgment Was Given to the Saints of the Most High”

The statement “judgment was given to the saints of the Most High” is not an incidental phrase, nor is it symbolic of a private heavenly reward. It is a deliberate echo of Daniel 7:18 and must be read within the judicial framework of Scripture. Judgment here is delegated authority, not mere discernment, and it is given only after a defined process has taken place.

Daniel makes the order unmistakable: “Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” (Daniel 7:22)

Judgment is first given to the saints, and only then do they possess the kingdom.

Did I say it (judgment given to the saints) was an "incidental phrase"? No.
Did I say it (judgment given to the saints) was symbolic? No.
Did I say it (judgment given to the saints) was not to "be read within the judicial framework of Scripture"? No.
Did I say it (judgment given to the saints) was not real "delegated authority"? No.
Did I say it (judgment given to the saints) was "mere discernment"? No.
Did I ever imply any of the above? No.

The judgment given to the saints is real judgment in delegated authority, granted them by Jesus. That is exactly what I stated in regards judgment being given to the saints (in Heaven); Dan. 7:22c; Rev. 20:4 and subsequent texts of 1 Cor. 6:2-3; and even included the whole of Psa. 149:1-9 which deals with several phases of the judgment by the saints. Yes, they have real authority to judge as a nation of kings/priests, but only so based on the word of God.; their final authority in all matters of faith and practice. They are only allowed to judge, or "amen", according to what is already written in punishments therein as stated by JEHOVAH Elohiym. in other words, they cannot say, "I think ... this person deserves this and that", while another says "I think this and that". No. They open the books of records (as angels are doing now under JEHOVAH Elohiym's guidance; Dan. 7:9-10; &c.) and look upon the deeds of the dead lost (all dead on earth) and compare those deeds done in the flesh, while alive, against the Law of God, His standard in the written word (that two-edged sword).

Did I say that judgment comes after the possession of the eternal kingdom? No.
Did I ever imply such in any portion of what I wrote? No.

I already stated in the previous response that the saints inherit the kingdom after all judgment and execution thereof (wicked reduced to ashes, at the end of the 1000 years), and the re-Creation by JEHOVAH Elohiym. Not a moment before.

This immediately implies that the saints are no longer mortal, no longer probationary, and no longer awaiting a verdict. They have already passed through judgment themselves.

That is exactly what I stated and cited in Psa. 149. Wherein my response do you read any differently?

Scripture confirms that principle elsewhere: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.” (1 Peter 4:17)

God does not entrust judgment to those who have not first been judged. The saints cannot execute judgment while still awaiting their own. Therefore, the phrase “judgment was given to the saints” presupposes resurrection, accountability, and justification.

That is exactly what I said. Of course, judgment given to the saints, pre-supposed that they had already passed from judgment upon themselves to life in Christ Jesus, and have been granted crowns, as king/priests, in authority, and have been granted immortal "flesh and bones" (Luk. 24:39) even as Jesus now has, through either translation, or resurrection, and glorification and going up above all as Jesus (their Head) had.

Did I ever say the saints were to receive this judgment beforehand, while still mortal? No.
Did I ever say the saints were to receive this judgment before their resurrection / translation / glorfication? No.

Of course judgment begins at the house of God (Eze. 8-9), and it begins with the elders (the chief teachers in the church / body of Christ, since they had more light / knowledge and responsibility than others). Where did I say otherwise? Nowhere.

Only then do the saints take up the role described in the Psalms: “To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints.” (Psalm 149:7–9)

This is not poetic devotion; it is judicial action. The judgments are written, predefined by God, and administered by glorified saints acting as His agents. Zechariah reinforces the same outcome:

That is exactly what I said. The saints "in glory" (Psa. 149; glorified and in Heaven, crowned, victorious, resurrected, translated, etc) are given judgment. They do not execute judgment in heaven. They simply Amen what the written word (two edged sword) says. When they return to the earth to address the wicked at the end of 1000 years (Rev. 20:5, 7-10, 11-15), then is the execution of the judgment written, that they had already Amen-ed. The judge in the bench must first go over the evidence. At the end sentence of judgment is given. Then the judged guilty to be handed over for execution of the judgment written / determined. Where did I say otherwise? Nowhere.

Psa. 149 has several phases in it. Not just a single one. As for instance, Psa. 149:1-2, speaks of the "new song" (song of Moses and of the Lamb", and "Zion" (which is in Heaven) and refers to the resurrection, "sing" and "joyful" (Isa. 26:19, &c). Psa. 149:4-5, is the saints glorification and taken to Heaven as children of Heavenly "Zion", "beautify the meek with salvation", "in glory". Psa. 149:6 refers to the word of God (two-edged sword "in their mouth", and thus refers to the judgment in looking at the record books and comparing it to the standard of JEHOVAH Elohiym in the written word (see also "written" in Psa. 149:9), as final authority. Psa. 149:7-9 is at the ending of the 1000 years, when they all come back to earth to "execute ... the judgment written", which was first considered during the 1000 years while in Heaven, Dan. 7:22c; Rev. 20:4.

The judgment and the excution thereof are differing stages in differing locations.

“And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.” (Zechariah 14:5)

Zec. 14 is at the end of the 1000 years (3rd advent), not before, and not during.

​

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

There is no place in scripture in which New Jerusalem comes down to earth before the 1000 years. Zec. 14 shows the destruction of the wicked, as does Rev. 20, from which Rev. 20 is drawing from. That is the 3rd Advent, at the ending of the 1000 years, to "execute" the judgment written, that had already been discussed during the 1000 years in heaven, when judgment was given to the saints of the most high; Dan. 7:22; Rev. 20:4, after their own resurrection glrofication; Rev. 20:5b-6.

 

[Adventageous]

Come where, Advent, at the end of the thousand years to make such judgments? Nonsense!

The saints come with Christ to establish order, not to escape the earth. Their role mirrors what angels do now, executing divine will but unlike angels, the saints will do so openly among the nations.

The saints return to "execute judgment", which is torment unto 2nd death or annihilation by total global fire at the end of ther 1000 years:

​

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The saints are not then directing the lost. They have already Amen-ed the termination of the lost during the 1000 years. There are not taskmasters among the righteous over the lost.

To suggest that saints are already reigning in heaven empties these passages of meaning. Judgment cannot be both ongoing and complete, nor can it be delegated before it is concluded. God’s order is consistent:

I have no idea what you are referring to here. I have not said, anywhere, in any of my replies that, "saints are already reigning in heaven" right now. I have only ever stated that Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and the 'firstfruits' group, are either already transalted, or resurrected, and glorified there, awaiting for the rest to be there. Then judgment will be given unto them all together during the 1000 years.

I agree, JEHOVAH Elohiym's order is entirely consistent. I did not say judgment was taking place now, anywhere. I said the saints are given judgment during the 1000 years in Heaven, and the execution of that judgment at the end of the 1000 years on earth.

Pro_11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.​

Yea, at the end of the 1000 years.

judged → immortalised → entrusted → ruling.

Thus, “judgment was given to the saints of the Most High” stands as powerful evidence for a future, earthly reign of resurrected, glorified believers, men and women who were first judged by God and then honoured with the execution of His righteous judgments.

I stated that already. What you read of (or into) my post I do not know.

@Brakelite - I'm sorry but you and Advent have the activities of the Saints during the 1000 years so wrong it could not be more obvious.

The irony in your teaching is that you return only after all the work of the true saints has already been done, after they have been in the midst of the nations, openly working righteousness among them. By your own teaching, you make yourself entirely redundant.

From your response, I do not think you have comperhended what I wrote - at all.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Adventageous Have you seen this also?

Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”

By the Eternal Divine Spirit which imparted Divine Nature upon the Son we too might walk in the same Newness of Life.

Romans 6:10 "For the death Jesus died Jesus died to sin, once for all, but the life (Eternal) Jesus lives Jesus lives to God.

(Added Jesus in place of he)

Jesus died once to sin’s flesh so that God might achieve the victory and demonstrate His righteousness, by crucifying our weak, corruptible flesh and giving us hope despite our condemnation due to sin.

I can tell you do not know the Christ - the Son of Man and the Son of the Living God.