Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, it will bring about that promise, but that's not what I had in mind. Peter was referring to "His promise" that he had previously referenced.

2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The answer I was looking for was the promise of His second coming, which last days scoffers scoff at. His second coming has not yet occurred, therefore we still look for new heavens and a new earth in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming.

Christ is bringing to fruition the city that Abraham sought all his life, establishing its foundation during the thousand-year reign by replacing the old heavenly and earthly powers and instituting a new governance over the earth.

It's all on earth and has little to do with Heaven (God's Realm)

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are being very foolish. I said nothing about three layers of heaven.

Shame, I was looking forward to that post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Leave it with you to digest - you need to study Deut 32 - Isaiah 65 - 2 Peter 3 and Rev 21

No, you need to study them and ask God to show you what they mean (James 1:5-7). It's clear to me that you've never done that.

Because you have nothing Scriptural to provide you always default to these replies - they do nothing for me at all.

Is 2nd Peter 3 not scripture? Is Revelation 21 not scripture? Jesus also taught that the heavens and the earth will pass away when He comes again (Matthew 24:35-39). Is that not scripture? Your weak arguments do nothing for me. So, what are we doing here? We completely disagree with each other on this topic. I'm not willing to continue wasting my time on you with this topic indefinitely. If you have anything new to bring to the table, feel free. Otherwise, I'm ready to move on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ is bringing to fruition the city that Abraham sought all his life, establishing its foundation during the thousand-year reign by replacing the old heavenly and earthly powers and instituting a new governance over the earth.

And then what is described in Revelation 20:7-9 happens to ruin it all. Your view turns Christ's efforts during a supposed future thousand year reign into a complete failure that Satan is able to ruin during a short period of time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Shame, I was looking forward to that post.

Congratulations on misrepresenting my view. Maybe your strawman that exists in your imagination will make the post that you were looking forward to.

 

[Adventageous]

I'm not so sure that the references to the new heavens and new earth are including the third heaven. It most likely refers to the first heaven (earth's atmosphere)

Correct, 'the New Heaven and Earth' refer to this world and its land and (1st) air / heaven (atmosphere), with some retouching of the moon, and putting the sun and moon back into their places (which will have been knocked out of place at the 2nd advent as earlier references provided shows) and a few other things.

Rev_21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

​

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.​

As according to several places in the OT, and NT, it is this present evil world (earth / land & air / atmosphere / heaven, as well as ocean) that burns up. The second heaven, where the sun, moon and 'stars' (local Sol system "planets"; 2 Kin 23:5 KJB) are get a slight retouching (ie moved back into their places, the moon resurfaced since it is pockmarked at present with evidence of Noah's flood destruction, having been damaged by debris shot out into the second heaven by such force that terrified even the devil himself). The primary heaven that Rev. 21:1 refers to is the first heaven, or atmosphere of earth, which at the 2nd advent / coming will, as written, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together".

 

[Hiddenthings]

No, you need to study them and ask God to show you what they mean (James 1:5-7). It's clear to me that you've never done that.


Is 2nd Peter 3 not scripture? Is Revelation 21 not scripture? Jesus also taught that the heavens and the earth will pass away when He comes again (Matthew 24:35-39). Is that not scripture?

These all testify to 3 ages of ecclesiastical periods of governance...one replaces the other until the third which is everlasting!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Correct, 'the New Heaven and Earth' refer to this world and its land and (1st) air / heaven (atmosphere),

The first covenant was established at Sinai, when God called His people to be a kingdom of priests and kings. As you know, this order would eventually be replaced by a new arrangement of heaven (rulers) and earth (peoples)

 

[Hiddenthings]

The primary heaven that Rev. 21:1 refers to is the first heaven, or atmosphere of earth, which at the 2nd advent / coming will, as written, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together".

Your fixation with atmosphere is comical once you come to understand the true interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These all testify to 3 ages of ecclesiastical periods of governance...one replaces the other until the third which is everlasting!

That is something you have made up in your imagination. Jesus taught about 2 ages, not 3, so I'm going to stick to what Jesus taught. He taught that there is this temporal age during which people get married and die and then the eternal age to come during which people will no longer get married and will no longer die (Luke 20:34-36). When Jesus comes again He will usher in the eternal age to come with the eternal new heavens and new earth. As Peter wrote, we should be looking for new heavens and a new earth where only righteousness dwells in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. You are looking for an earthly millennial kingdom where wickedness still exists instead.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That is something you have made up in your imagination. Jesus taught about 2 ages, not 3, so I'm going to stick to what Jesus taught. He taught that there is this temporal age during which people get married and die and then the eternal age to come during which people will no longer get married and will no longer die (Luke 20:34-36). When Jesus comes again He will usher in the eternal age to come with the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Jesus’ ministry warned of the passing of the Mosaic age (ad70) and pointed directly to the coming Millennial age, during which he would reign with his saints.

If you go over to Matthew 5:17-20 he outlines it clearly!

“‘I say unto you’” expresses independent authority, speaking without quoting others. “Amen”!!

“Heaven and earth” – referring to the Jewish conception of heaven and earth (Deut 32:1 cf. Isa 1:2, 10).

Key Points:

1. Original creation: The first things made by God’s word (Gen 1:1; Ps 33:6).
2. Declaration of God’s righteousness: (Ps 50:6; 97:6).
3. Source of all good: (Isa 55:8–13).
4. Symbol of the imputation of righteousness to humanity: (Isa 45:8; 42:5–6; Hos 10:12).
5. Jewish corruption of heaven and earth: (Jer 4:22, based on Gen 1:2).
6. End of the Jewish heaven and earth to restore God’s righteousness: (Isa 51:5–6 cf. v16; 68:17; 2 Pet 3:12–13).

Enjoy - make sure you look up all the references!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Of course, to my knowledge there is no biblical record that teaches a three-layered heaven. It appears to be an unusual construct developed to accommodate fallen-angel theology and reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of angels.

God’s divine nature cannot sin, for it is eternal and defined by His holiness. If angels were capable of sinning by nature, this would imply sin within God Himself—an impossible paradox that @Adventageous has yet to address in his framework

2 Peter 1:4 “By which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.”

Blue text = God's nature i.e Christ, Angels and future Saints
Red Text = Humanity or as Romans 8 puts it Sin's Flesh.

What this means is that the Adventist hope of becoming like the angels amounts, in his view, to possessing a nature that still carries the propensity to sin.

A terrible doctrine which corrupts the entire story of the Bible...and as we have seen Revelation 20.

 

[Adventageous]

He taught that there is this temporal age during which people get married and die and then the eternal age to come during which people will no longer get married and will no longer die (Luke 20:34-36).

Correct. The language of Jesus upon that topic is explicit.

Luk 20:27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,​

Luk 20:28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.​

Luk 20:29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.​

Luk 20:30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.​

Luk 20:31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.​

Luk 20:32 Last of all the woman died also.​

Luk 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.​

​

Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:​

Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:​

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.​

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.​

Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

Luk 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.​

Luk 20:40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.​

The 'question' (trying to trick / trap Jesus), by the Sadducees, dealt with matters of the life in / after the resurrection (at the end of the world), which the Sadducees did not believe in (*), seeing as they could not find such a doctrine in the Torah (Pentateuch) of Moses, and they only claimed to believe Moses, rather than those prophets that came afterward. However, Jesus knowing the scriptures better than they, showed them from 'Moses' (Torah / Pentateuch), in Exo. 3:6:

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.​

​

Now, those who hold to certain WTS / JW / LDS- like doctrines will of course deny the statements of Jesus by attempting to spiritualize it/them away into some other non-thing/s, but in so doing they unwittingly assault the very resurrection of Jesus, which is the preeminent resurrection from which all others are resurrected (bodily, with "flesh and bones"; Luk. 24:39 KJB), along with the great future resurrection of the sleeping saints to come, along with how the New Heavens & Earth (world) will function at a foundational level. It is amazing, that even the Sadducees were put to silence, and "after that they durst not ask him any question at all" (and none sought to spiritualize away the words of Jesus then, and they understood what Jesus referred to in Exodus, countering their man-made false doctrine), while the scribes (which dealt with the scriptures, and recording, among other things), acknowledged the very truth of what Jesus stated, unlike those who hold to such vain carnal doctrines as the WTS / JW (and some others, LDS) do on this passage. In the "world" to come, the "new" one, after the great Resurrection, and subsequent events thereto, which Jesus shall make, "marriage" is not present among human individuals anymore, and neither any need to produce "seed" and offspring, but those who are in that kingdom, "are equal unto the angels" (which also are not given in marriage, and neither have "seed", nor produce "offspring" (**). The great "marriage" to the Lamb is the final marriage, between God & His people. The great harvest will then be past, and so there is no more need for "sowing" "seed" or "reaping". The Gospel is realized in its fullness. Will there be children in Heaven (3rd)? Yes, those of the resurrection / translation. Will they eventually grow up? Yes.

(*)

Mat_22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,​

Mar_12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,​

Luk 20:27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,​

Act_23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.​

1Co_15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?​

(**)

See Question 10 in its details - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
or
See Chapter 12 in its details - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Hiddenthings]

Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:​

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.​

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.​

You say the teaching is explicit, yet you overlook a crucial issue concerning angels, saints, and the divine nature. You hold that angels and saints can die, which is precisely where the Master and I part ways with your doctrine of angels sinning.

It's amazing how someone can study and look into things so deeply and yet overlook the most obvious lessons. What it requires is you to scrap your current theology and learn anew.

Very few can do this as the Gospels reveal.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus’ ministry warned of the passing of the Mosaic age (ad70) and pointed directly to the coming Millennial age, during which he would reign with his saints.

If you go over to Matthew 5:17-20 he outlines it clearly!

“‘I say unto you’” expresses independent authority, speaking without quoting others. “Amen”!!

“Heaven and earth” – referring to the Jewish conception of heaven and earth (Deut 32:1 cf. Isa 1:2, 10).

Key Points:

1. Original creation: The first things made by God’s word (Gen 1:1; Ps 33:6).
2. Declaration of God’s righteousness: (Ps 50:6; 97:6).
3. Source of all good: (Isa 55:8–13).
4. Symbol of the imputation of righteousness to humanity: (Isa 45:8; 42:5–6; Hos 10:12).
5. Jewish corruption of heaven and earth: (Jer 4:22, based on Gen 1:2).
6. End of the Jewish heaven and earth to restore God’s righteousness: (Isa 51:5–6 cf. v16; 68:17; 2 Pet 3:12–13).

Enjoy - make sure you look up all the references!

@Spiritual Israelite

If you cannot discern how “heaven” is used symbolically in Scripture, how can you understand Revelation 20—or any of these other references? By insisting on a strictly literal reading of the Word, you have limited yourself and sacrificed spiritual insight.

The fact that you and Advent cannot interpret the same verses which clearly identify Israel as the first “heavens and earth” speaks volumes about your inability to correctly interpret Revelation 20.

You can laugh but in the end your silence is where it's at.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

If you cannot discern how “heaven” is used symbolically in Scripture, how can you understand Revelation 20—or any of these other references? By insisting on a strictly literal reading of the Word, you have limited yourself and sacrificed spiritual insight.

LOL. I don't limit myself to a strictly literal reading of the Word. Stop being foolish. I discern when the text within the Word is literal and when it is symbolic. Obviously, there is both literal and symbolic (and apocalyptic, poetic, hyperbolic, etc.) text in scripture.

The fact that you and Advent cannot interpret the same verses which clearly identify Israel as the first “heavens and earth” speaks volumes about your inability to correctly interpret Revelation 20.

LOL. You are a comedian. There is nothing in Revelation 20 that speaks about Israel as the first heavens and earth. It's talking about the literal heavens and earth there, obviously. Scripture is clear that the literal heavens and earth will pass away when Jesus comes (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:10-12). If you want to deny that, then that's your problem. I can't force you to have spiritual discernment that allows you to differentiate between literal and symbolic text. You need to ask God for the wisdom to be able to do that (James 1:5-7).

You can laugh but in the end your silence is where it's at.

My silence? LOL. I have not been silent. I've talked to you far more than I probably should. What a waste of time it is talking to you. It has gotten nowhere just as I said it would if we continued. I will continue to laugh at your nonsense.

 

[Hiddenthings]

LOL. I don't limit myself to a strictly literal reading of the Word.

It has been my experience.

Stop being foolish.

The observation is true.

I discern when the text within the Word is literal and when it is symbolic. Obviously, there is both literal and symbolic (and apocalyptic, poetic, hyperbolic, etc.) text in scripture.

You cannot discern how heaven and earth is used even in its plain teaching in Deut 32.

LOL. You are a comedian.

Not my occupation sorry

There is nothing in Revelation 20 that speaks about Israel as the first heavens and earth.

No it's dealing with the 2nd heaven and earth period and the transition to the 3rd.

It's talking about the literal heavens and earth there, obviously.

No - nothing wrong with Heaven - God's Dwelling place has never witnessed sin!

Scripture is clear that the literal heavens and earth will pass away when Jesus comes (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

The Earth was made to be inhabited not destroyed - you miss the most basic teachings.

My silence? LOL. I have not been silent. I've talked to you far more than I probably should. What a waste of time it is talking to you. It has gotten nowhere just as I said it would if we continued. I will continue to laugh at your nonsense.

Who are the Heavens and Earth referenced below?

Deuteronomy 32:1 “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.”

Maybe your heavens and earth have ears

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It has been my experience.

You don't have enough experience then.

The observation is true.

It seems that almost nothing you say is true.

You cannot discern how heaven and earth is used even in its plain teaching in Deut 32.

I don't deny that the words heaven and earth can be used symbolically. I'm denying that they are used that way in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 20:11. Try to pay attention to what my arguments actually are instead of what your strawman's arguments might be.

Not my occupation sorry

No it's dealing with the 2nd heaven and earth period and the transition to the 3rd.

LOL. Scripture never speaks of a "2nd heaven and earth period" or a 3rd heaven and earth period.

No - nothing wrong with Heaven - God's Dwelling place has never witnessed sin!

So, you do acknowledge an actual place called heaven? That's somewhat surprising.

The Earth was made to be inhabited not destroyed - you miss the most basic teachings.

You continue to argue with your strawman. Based on what you've said before, when you say "destroyed" you mean annihilated, but I've already told you that I don't believe the earth will be annihilated, but rather will be renewed and regenerated by fire, resulting in the new earth. All wickedness will be removed from the earth, leaving the new earth where only righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21:4). Let me know if there's anything you don't understand about what I'm saying. I think I'm being pretty clear and straightforward here.

Who are the Heavens and Earth referenced below?

Deuteronomy 32:1 “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.”

Maybe your heavens and earth have ears

Are you proud of your foolishness? You should be embarrassed. Do you deny the existence of literal heavens and a literal earth? If not, what in the world is your point? It's as if you are trying to argue that all references to the heavens and the earth in scripture are symbolic. That's clearly not the case. In the beginning God created the literal heavens and literal earth and when Jesus comes He will be setting the literal heavens and literal earth on fire and renewing them in the form of the new heavens and new earth. That is what is written in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Are you proud of your foolishness? You should be embarrassed.

Let's see how you go with the question?

Do you deny the existence of literal heavens and a literal earth?

Never said that... and that was a foolish comment!

It's as if you are trying to argue that all references to the heavens and the earth in scripture are symbolic.

I'm still waiting for you to answer the simple question

That's clearly not the case. In the beginning God created the literal heavens and literal earth and when Jesus comes He will be setting the literal heavens and literal earth on fire and renewing them in the form of the new heavens and new earth. That is what is written in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Okay you have revealed your void.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's see how you go with the question?

Never said that... and that was a foolish comment!

It was a question, not a comment. Learn the difference so that you stop looking foolish. Since you acknowledge the existence of literal heavens and a literal earth, why can't Matthew 24:35-39, 2nd Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 20:11 refer to the literal heavens and literal earth? I'm sure you have no answer to that question.

I'm still waiting for you to answer the simple question

Okay you have revealed your void.

You are boring me at this point. You're just being repetitive now. Everyone can see that you are not one to be taken seriously, so I don't need to convince anyone of that. So, I'm not going to waste any more time on you.