WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

[The Light]

The bible is clear.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

The following is COMPLETELY MISSING from postrib rapture doctrine;
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The reason you miss it is because of your strict "trib vs wrath", then you misplace the first 3.5 years of the 7 yr tribulation.
Jacob's trouble.
IOW your starting place is from mental figuring.

The Church is raptured before the great tribulation. However, there is no scripture that shows the Church is in heaven before the 7 years begins.

Secondly, you know there is a second rapture, and you understand that it is the Jews that are being raptured. This rapture occurs at the 6th seal. This is the reason that there is a great multitude in heaven some of which came out of the great tribulation. This is all clear, the great tribulation is OVER. Then the seventh seal is opened and the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of wrath begin.

Who is left on the earth? The two witnesses, the woman Israel, that has fled to a place of protection, and unbelievers. The Church is taken to heaven in the first rapture at the trump of God or voice of God. The 12 tribes across that are believers after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, are taken to heaven at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets at the 6th seal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

Okay, so you acknowledge that John 2:19-22 and Matthew 24:1-2 are records of two separate occasions/events. That's progress.

Now, can you answer my question about what you think "these great buildings" represent that Jesus said would be destroyed with no stone left upon another?

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

You think "these great buildings" represent His body? If so, what do you think the disciples were asking Him after that when they asked "when will these things be?"? Do you think they were asking Him when He was going to die and be resurrected? If so, where in the Olivet Discourse does He talk about things in relation to His death and resurrection?

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

You can claim that all you want, but if you don't answer my simple questions then I can't take you seriously. If Jesus was talking about the death of His body in Matthew 24:1-2 then the disciples first question about what He told them in Matthew 24:3 would have been in relation to the timing of His death. Is that what you believe?

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem.

I agree.

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Why would Jesus refer to His body as being destroyed with not one stone left upon another? That seems like a strange way to refer to the temple of His body being killed. Why didn't He word it that way in John 2:19-22?

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay, so you acknowledge that John 2:19-22 and Matthew 24:1-2 are records of two separate occasions/events. That's progress.

Now, can you answer my question about what you think "these great buildings" represent that Jesus said would be destroyed with no stone left upon another?

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

You think "these great buildings" represent His body? If so, what do you think the disciples were asking Him after that when they asked "when will these things be?"? Do you think they were asking Him when He was going to die and be resurrected? If so, where in the Olivet Discourse does He talk about things in relation to His death and resurrection?


You can claim that all you want, but if you don't answer my simple questions then I can't take you seriously. If Jesus was talking about the death of His body in Matthew 24:1-2 then the disciples first question about what He told them in Matthew 24:3 would have been in relation to the timing of His death. Is that what you believe?


I agree.


Why would Jesus refer to His body as being destroyed with not one stone left upon another? That seems like a strange way to refer to the temple of His body being killed. Why didn't He word it that way in John 2:19-22?

You've Been Clearly Answered In "Full", I Have Nothing To Add

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[covenantee]

You've Been Clearly Answered In "Full", I Have Nothing To Add

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Jesus Is The Lord

Awaiting your interpretive insights into post 117.

Maybe @TribulationSigns can help you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I NEVER called pre-tribbers escapists, I said the DOCTRINE was "to me" ESCAPISM.

"But as for your doctrine, the postrib doctrine teaches "one coming"
So what is Rev 14:14?"

It is the last and divine judgement of The Lord, where He sends ANGELS to gather the elect. Nothing about a 2nd, 2nd coming.


"Ask a postribber to unpack rev 14:14."

As @Spiritual Israelite said just 2 post's above:

" You can't hope to understand the book of Revelation if you don't recognize that it's not all in chronological order. Revelation 14:14 is one of several parallel verses in Revelation that describe things in relation to the ONE future coming of Christ."

Nothing about angels gathering anyone in rev14:14.

In fact, we see Jesus HOLDING A SICKLE SITTING ON A CLOUD, in rev 14:14
The second coming of rev 19, has Jesus on a horse with millions of horses blackening the sky WITH NO SICKLE WHATSOEVER.

You are Making 2 separate comings into one.
No way that they can possibly be the same thing.
Then you suggest that Rev has no timeline whatsoever?
Huh?

 

[Davidpt]

Nothing about angels gathering anyone in rev14:14.

In fact, we see Jesus HOLDING A SICKLE SITTING ON A CLOUD, in rev 14:14
The second coming of rev 19, has Jesus on a horse with millions of horses blackening the sky WITH NO SICKLE WHATSOEVER.

You are Making 2 separate comings into one.
No way that they can possibly be the same thing.
Then you suggest that Rev has no timeline whatsoever?
Huh?

Why don't some of you try using Scripture interprets Scripture for a change?

The following undeniably proves that angels, not Christ, are doing the gathereing during the harvests involving the end of this world.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Apparently then, Revelation 14:14 applies to--but gather the wheat into my barn.

And that Revelation 14:18-20 applies to---Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them.

Whether you agree or not, Christ never does the reaping Himself, it's His angels that do. Otherwise we end up with contradictions between what is recorded in Matthew 13 and what is recorded in Revelation 14 if we make the one meant in Revelation 14:14 to be Christ. Except that verse is a simile. Everyone knows what a simile means.

like unto the Son of man--how can one be like unto the Son of man and be the Son of Man at the same time? IOW, how can one be like unto Jesus and be Jesus at the same time?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why don't some of you try using Scripture interprets Scripture for a change?

The following undeniably proves that angels, not Christ, are doing the gathereing during the harvests involving the end of this world.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Apparently then, Revelation 14:14 applies to--but gather the wheat into my barn.

And that Revelation 14:18-20 applies to---Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them.

Whether you agree or not, Christ never does the reaping Himself, it's His angels that do. Otherwise we end up with contradictions between what is recorded in Matthew 13 and what is recorded in Revelation 14 if we make the one meant in Revelation 14:14 to be Christ. Except that verse is a simile. Everyone knows what a simile means.

like unto the Son of man--how can one be like unto the Son of man and be the Son of Man at the same time? IOW, how can one be like unto Jesus and be Jesus at the same time?

Actually we do not see any angels gathering in Rev 14:14.

QUOTE
"Jesus never does the reaping, his angels do"
Rev 14;14 has JESUS HOLDING A SICKLE.
Ahem...Jesus doing the reaping

Mat 24 has " one taken, one left, before the flood"...no angels anywhere.
Mat 25 has the most vivid depiction of the rapture in the virgin parable, with JESUS GATHERING HIS BRIDE HIMSELF.
1 these 4 ;16 Jesus HIMSELF GATHERS.
NO ANGELS DO ANY GATHERING.
2 thes 2 has no angels mentioned at His coming.

I can tell you where angels gather.
It is mat 24, where Angels gather after the trib, not Jesus, and those angels gather the saints in heaven.( so that, in no way, is the rapture.)
You postribs have never read it.
Read it word for word for the first time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You've Been Clearly Answered In "Full", I Have Nothing To Add

I have not been clearly answered by you at all and certainly not in full. You know that someone just believes whatever they want to believe instead of what scripture teaches when they can't even answer simple questions. You can't even tell me what you think the disciples were asking Jesus when they asked "when shall these things be?". A very simple question that you don't even attempt to answer. Why should I take you seriously when you can't even answer that simple question?

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

So, you think the Lord would describe His body as "these great buildings" that would be destroyed with no stone left upon another then?

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

The first question the disciples asked was related to the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time that Jesus said would be destroyed. They were destroyed just as He prophesied in 70 AD. The second question they asked relates to His future second coming at the end of this temporal age. Both futurists like you and most preterists do not understand that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked both about a local or regional event that happened in Judea and Jerusalem in 70 AD and about His future second coming that will be a global event.

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem

I agree, as I already told you. You are just a robot incapable of reasoning with others. You just repeat the same things over and over again.

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Explain how Jerusalem was destroyed spiritually with not one stone left upon another. What does being destroyed with no stone left upon another mean in a spiritual sense?

 

[jeffweeder]

Explain how Jerusalem was destroyed spiritually with not one stone left upon another. What does being destroyed with no stone left upon another mean in a spiritual sense?

The gates of hell will never overcome Spiritual Jerusalem, so it has to mean the one made with hands.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The gates of hell will never overcome Spiritual Jerusalem, so it has to mean the one made with hands.

Good point. Agree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually we do not see any angels gathering in Rev 14:14.

QUOTE
"Jesus never does the reaping, his angels do"
Rev 14;14 has JESUS HOLDING A SICKLE.
Ahem...Jesus doing the reaping

Do you think He will literally be holding a sickle that He will use to reap His people? Of course He won't. That's ridiculous. You have no understanding of the symbolism in Revelation. He won't be holding a sickle just as He won't be riding a white horse when He comes with a sword coming out of His mouth. That's all symbolism. Just because it doesn't specifically mention the angels does not mean that He won't be having the angels doing the actual reaping. Not every passage related to the second coming of Christ contains all of the same details.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why don't some of you try using Scripture interprets Scripture for a change?

The following undeniably proves that angels, not Christ, are doing the gathereing during the harvests involving the end of this world.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Agree. There is no scripture that describes Jesus doing any reaping Himself. He has His angels do the actual reaping.

Apparently then, Revelation 14:14 applies to--but gather the wheat into my barn.

And that Revelation 14:18-20 applies to---Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them.

Whether you agree or not, Christ never does the reaping Himself, it's His angels that do. Otherwise we end up with contradictions between what is recorded in Matthew 13 and what is recorded in Revelation 14 if we make the one meant in Revelation 14:14 to be Christ. Except that verse is a simile. Everyone knows what a simile means.

like unto the Son of man--how can one be like unto the Son of man and be the Son of Man at the same time? IOW, how can one be like unto Jesus and be Jesus at the same time?

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.

I'm sure you would agree that the "One like the Son of Man" in this verse is Jesus. There's no need to resort to saying that the one like the Son of Man in Revelation 14 is not Jesus. It is referring to Jesus, but it describes the reaping symbolically. It's not as if Jesus will be literally holding a sickle when He comes while literally reaping people with a literal sickle. That would be one huge sickle if that happened literally. But, no, the sickle is symbolic. The literal way that Jesus will do the reaping is by sending His angels to do it, as we can see in other scriptures. It's just symbolically portrayed as Him putting in His sickle in Revelation 14. I wonder if rebuilder 454 takes that literally? It wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Button]

More fake news. More twisting of history and facts.

I'm starting to realize this is more far reaching in just what I've encountered in other threads.

None of the Reformers was preterist. They were all historicist.

The word you're trying to spell is "farce".

You're welcome.

"Farse" (or "farse") can refer to an obsolete spelling of "farce,"

 

[Truth7t7]

I have not been clearly answered by you at all and certainly not in full. You know that someone just believes whatever they want to believe instead of what scripture teaches when they can't even answer simple questions. You can't even tell me what you think the disciples were asking Jesus when they asked "when shall these things be?". A very simple question that you don't even attempt to answer. Why should I take you seriously when you can't even answer that simple question?


So, you think the Lord would describe His body as "these great buildings" that would be destroyed with no stone left upon another then?


The first question the disciples asked was related to the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time that Jesus said would be destroyed. They were destroyed just as He prophesied in 70 AD. The second question they asked relates to His future second coming at the end of this temporal age. Both futurists like you and most preterists do not understand that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked both about a local or regional event that happened in Judea and Jerusalem in 70 AD and about His future second coming that will be a global event.


I agree, as I already told you. You are just a robot incapable of reasoning with others. You just repeat the same things over and over again.


Explain how Jerusalem was destroyed spiritually with not one stone left upon another. What does being destroyed with no stone left upon another mean in a spiritual sense?

You have been clearly shown that the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body, just as the Jews falsely believed it was a temple of stone that took 46 years to build, you believe the same

The false Preterist teaching of 70AD Roman armies destruction of the temple in Jerusalem played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple in Jerusalem below when he stated "Destroy This Temple" 100% "Yes"

"But He Spake Of The Temple Of His Body"

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have been clearly shown that the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body, just as the Jews falsely believed it was a temple of stone that took 46 years to build, you believe the same

The false Preterist teaching, 70AD in Roman armies played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple in Jerusalem below when he stated "Destroy This Temple" 100% "Yes"

"But He Spake Of The Temple Of His Body"

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

And, once again, you didn't even attempt to answer my simple question. How do you think anyone should take you seriously when you refuse to answer simple questions?

 

[covenantee]

I'm starting to realize this is more far reaching in just what I've encountered in other threads.


"Farse" (or "farse") can refer to an obsolete spelling of "farce,"

Farce​

A ludicrous, empty show; a mockery

Farse​

A vernacular paraphrase inserted into Latin liturgy.


Which one do you think he meant?

 

[Button]

Farce​

A ludicrous, empty show; a mockery

Farse​

A vernacular paraphrase inserted into Latin liturgy.


Which one do you think he meant?

I would not hazard a guess. It's your conversation.

 

[covenantee]

You have been clearly shown that the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body, just as the Jews falsely believed it was a temple of stone that took 46 years to build, you believe the same

The false Preterist teaching, 70AD in Roman armies played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple in Jerusalem below when he stated "Destroy This Temple" 100% "Yes"

"But He Spake Of The Temple Of His Body"

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Of course.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

It's perfectly Scriptural.

 

[covenantee]

I would not hazard a guess. It's your conversation.

Hint: It's not the second one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

It's perfectly Scriptural.

The nerve of those people trying to buy and sell things in His body. They got what they deserved for that.