Revelation 20:1-15 & the 1,000 years (aka Millennium) Bible Study

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why are you contradicting where Scripture plainly tells us Jesus was during the time He was dead?

Because I'm not. Why are you wrong so much of the time? I have to correct your false interpretations over and over again. Ask God for wisdom so that you stop believing falsehood (James 1:5-7).

Jesus plainly told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise on that day. Why do you misunderstand simple things? Because you can't help but make simple things convoluted. It's what you do. Repeatedly.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What reasonable person could possibly confuse in the heart of the earth with the 3rd heaven where God dwells?

LOL. No reasonable person would. Do you understand that there is more to a person than the body? Jesus's body was in the heart of the earth (the grave) when He died, but His spirit went to the third heaven/paradise. And that's where the soul and spirit of the thief on the cross went, too.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last.

And what about the following, which is a 2nd and 3rd witness to Matthew 12:40?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He had not yet ascended bodily to heaven. It does not mean His soul or spirit was never there. Why do you not differentiate between the body, the soul and the spirit?

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This is not saying His soul would go to hell, but not be left there, as you apparently believe. Here is another translation of the verse.

Acts 2:27 (NIV): because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

The Greek word translated as "leave" or "abandon" in that verse is translated as "forsake" in the other verses where it is used. What that verse is saying is that Jesus would not be sent to hell and left there when He died. It's not saying He would be sent there, but not left there. It's saying He would not be sent there at all. Instead, He went to paradise, as recorded in Luke 23:43,46.

And since you don't believe in soul sleep, what do you take it to mean that His soul was not left in hell?

See above. I can tell you've never even given this any serious thought before and you just made an assumption about what it means. You are wrong.

The text never says His soul didn't go there. It says it was never left there.

It says He would not be left/abandoned there, but that doesn't imply that He would ever go there at all. He was not sent there at all, which obviously means He wasn't abandoned there. He went to paradise instead. Why are you willing to interpret the verse in such a way that contradicts other verses like Luke 23:43 and Luke 23:46? You are constantly causing scripture to contradict itself.

BTW, that doesn't mean His soul was in hell in order to be tormented while He was dead.

That's what happens to those who go to hell.

. I certainly don't believe that to be the case. Maybe it had something to do with the following, for example?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

They were preached to by the Spirit before they died and went to hell. It's not saying they were preached to while in hell. It was too late for them at that point. At the time that passage was written, their spirits were in hell, so Peter was referring to their current status. Again, you are causing a contradiction with your interpretation. Nowhere does scripture say that people get a second chance at salvation after death. It is appointed for people once to die and then to be judged (Hebrews 9:27). No chance at salvation in between. So, the Spirit did not preach to any dead people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's so clear I believe @Spiritual Israelite can see it, but I sense the pride is strong in them.

Confidence is not pride. I am confident that you are wrong about many things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly! That's how I understand it as well. It was simply a prophecy about paradise in the future, meaning the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven. Jesus was simply telling him that he too will be in paradise with Him when He comes in His kingdom.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Some either ignore this or simply don't comprehend that this proves that Jesus wasn't meaning that very same day. As if while He was in the heart of the earth, it equals Him having come into His kingdom. Not to mention, He wasn't even presented with a kingdom until after He ascended back into heaven first some days later following his resurrection. And that the thief said remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Congratulations on agreeing with a guy who denies the deity of Christ and is also wrong about many other things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because they do not understand death as death. They assume instantaneous salvation, that at the moment a person dies, some eternal part of them departs to heaven, which they then identify as “paradise.” What @Spiritual Israelite overlooks is that the paradise Jesus spoke of was His coming Kingdom, which is to descend from heaven to earth.

The person you're talking to, @Davidpt , does not agree with the false doctrine of soul sleep that you believe in. But, go ahead and try to deceive him if you want. He is definitely open to believing false doctrine.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Confidence is not pride. I am confident that you are wrong about many things.

No, it is pride, because Scripture states plainly that God replaces the reign of Christ and the Saints, the heaven-and-earth order, in terms so clear that even the simple can discern the truth. In time, you will step back and allow these matters to settle, and when pride has cooled, the truth will become evident.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course he is too prideful to admit he might be wrong about some of this.

You are absolutely wrong and you need to repent of pretending that you are God. You don't know me at all. I am confidet in my beliefs, but I know I could be wrong about some things. I just don't believe that I am. So what? There's nothing wrong with that. Read Paul's letters. He showed a high level of confidence in what he wrote. Does that mean he was prideful? Of course not.

I have been knowing him for years now, and I don't recall one single time where he ever admitted that maybe the other person is right in this case rather than him.

You have a terrible memory. I did that multiple times just to show you that you're wrong about that, and you've forgotten.

Meaning in regards to something major, such as what we are discussing here.

Oh, now you're talking in regards to something major, whatever that means. As if you have ever admitted being wrong about something major on any of these forums? Never that I can recall.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The person you're talking to, @Davidpt , does not agree with the false doctrine of soul sleep that you believe in. But, go ahead and try to deceive him if you want. He is definitely open to believing false doctrine.

The desperation is overwhelming. You were able to learn the application of this in Deut 32:1 and all you need to do is see how the Apostles used the same symbolic language.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it is pride,

It's not. You have no idea who I am or what you are talking about. That is clear. I don't need someone who denies the deity of Christ to try to tell me what's right or wrong. You obviously have no clue.

because Scripture states plainly that God replaces the reign of Christ and the Saints, the heaven-and-earth order, in terms so clear that even the simple can discern the truth. In time, you will step back and allow these matters to settle, and when pride has cooled, the truth will become evident.

LOL. You are very delusional. I will never agree with you about these things. I am not falling for your false teaching.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The desperation is overwhelming. You were able to learn the application of this in Deut 32:1 and all you need to do is see how the Apostles used the same symbolic language.

You are pathetic. You embarrass yourself with every post you make. You have no discernment whatsoever. You are not even remotely close to being qualified to teach anyone anything from the Bible.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are pathetic. You embarrass yourself with every post you make. You have no discernment whatsoever. You are not even remotely close to being qualified to teach anyone anything from the Bible.

Acting out won't remove these truths!

 

[Adventageous]

There is no 3rd Advent/Coming of Jesus. You need to start from scratch and try again.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Heb. 9:28 simply refers to the second advent (and that is not in question, but is accepted, granted, believed). That (text) is not a negation of the third advent texts already cited.

It is like citing a text on the first advent, and thinking there is no second advent by not listing the other texts on it.

If I list a text that says, "Peter, James and John", Are there no other disciples?
If I list a text that says, "Jesus wept", Are there no other emotions that Jesus displayed?

Simply listing a text on the second advent is not evidence against the third advent and those texts.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Simply listing a text on the second advent is not evidence against the third advent and those texts.

The issue here is I'm yet to see any evidence for a third advent from heaven when the heaven and earth order being replaced in Rev 21 is Christ and the Saints on Earth.

 

[WPM]

Which one?

Where is the 3rd heaven?

Stop being evasive.

What are you hiding?

 

[WPM]

Of course he is too prideful to admit he might be wrong about some of this. I have been knowing him for years now, and I don't recall one single time where he ever admitted that maybe the other person is right in this case rather than him. Meaning in regards to something major, such as what we are discussing here.

Your frustration and bitterness is palpable. This is all you have now - ad hominem and insults. Your theological arguments have all been resolutely and repeatedly refuted. You are describing yourself and misrepresenting Eric again.

Look in the mirror!

You spent your time here avoiding the issues and misrepresenting others.

 

[WPM]

This is not about the literal destruction of heaven and earth. Rather, it describes Christ handing back a renewed and cleansed earth, restored in all its glory to God, with death and the grave abolished and peace reigning eternally.

One heaven and earth period is removed for another endless heaven and earth period to begin!

I don't disagree with this.

I don't need to prove this to you as I know you will read Rev 21 with far more care and you will see the truth.

If you don't stop this continuous belittling rhetoric I'm done talking to you.

 

[WPM]

Maybe you have a problem with comprehension?

Here is the post again but this time I've highlighted the questions:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven. 12:3 And I know that this man (whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows) 12:4 was caught up into paradise and heard things too sacred to be put into words, things that a person is not permitted to speak. 2 Co 12:2–4.

Context:

Some have suggested that this experience occurred during Paul’s time in Arabia (cf. Gal 1:17; 2:1). A more compelling proposal, however, is that it coincides with Paul’s vision of Christ in Acts 18:9–10, during his ministry in Corinth. There the Lord appeared to Paul in a vision, encouraging him not to fear but to continue speaking, assuring him of divine protection and revealing that many in the city belonged to God. As a result, Paul remained in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching the word of God.

Paul’s visions of Christ are not so frequent that this alignment is likely coincidental. While the phrase “fourteen years ago” (2 Cor 12:2) may have meant little to newer members of the Corinthian community, it would have carried significant weight for those whom Paul himself baptized during his extended stay. For them, it served as a powerful reminder that their conversion was grounded in a genuine and direct “vision and revelation of the Lord” (2 Cor 12:1). Without such divine assurance, Paul might well have moved on quickly from Corinth rather than establishing the ecclesia there.

Questions:

Does caught up mean caught away?
Where is Paradise located?
Why is it called third heaven?
Heard things to sacred to put into words!

Contextual question:

Did Paul, during the “vision and revelation” described in Acts 18:9, receive a view of the Kingdom—understood as the third-heaven and earth period when God is “all in all”—similar to the vision Christ granted to Peter, James, and John at the Transfiguration (Matt 16:28)?

While I have my own conclusions, it is more constructive to weigh the evidence within the text itself and to review the various heaven and earth periods in which former things pass away and new governance is introduced as in Isaiah 65 & Rev 21.

Which one?

It was not a vision. He was caught up in the Spirit to heaven. This was a supernatural event. It occurred with John in Revelation. These occurred 200 years ago. Why are you always trying to explain away literal things?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't disagree with this.

If you don't stop this continuous belittling rhetoric I'm done talking to you.

We’re done here, because the evidence in Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 is so clear that only someone determined to impose their own dogma on the text could ignore it. I raised a number of questions in my initial post, none of which you even attempted to address. That alone shows a lack of willingness to engage seriously with the Word of God, preferring instead to defend non-biblical ideas, such as a layered heaven by reading them into the text.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It was not a vision. He was caught up in the Spirit to heaven. This was a supernatural event. It occurred with John in Revelation. Why are you always trying to explain away literal things?

Ah because Revelation and many other passages are written in symbolic language. Do I need to explain this to you, really?

 

[WPM]

We’re done here, because the evidence in Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 is so clear that only someone determined to impose their own dogma on the text could ignore it. I raised a number of questions in my initial post, none of which you even attempted to address. That alone shows a lack of willingness to engage seriously with the Word of God, preferring instead to defend non-biblical ideas, such as a layered heaven by reading them into the text.

Does you mum know you are online? If not, she should do.

Time to give it a break.

 

[WPM]

Ah because Revelation and many other passages are written in symbolic language. Do I need to explain this to you, really?

You can only relay what you have been told. Your esoteric theology belongs in Gnosticism. It is totally unbiblical. I refer you back to my avoided question.