When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, death will be swallowed up in victory and there will then be no more death, which will fulfill Isaiah 25:8.

[Marilyn C]

Do you believe that Israel is the Wife of Jehovah, and the Church is the Bride of Christ?

No, In time the nation of Israel is the wife of God. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) this means His relationship with Israel is as a husband/master.

In eternity the `bride` of Christ symbolically represents the glory of God through this vehicle in the physical realms. (Rev. 21: 11, 23)

I think people get carried away with the symbols and not the actual.

 

[covenantee]

No, In time the nation of Israel is the wife of God. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) this means His relationship with Israel is as a husband/master.

In eternity the `bride` of Christ symbolically represents the glory of God through this vehicle in the physical realms. (Rev. 21: 11, 23)

I think people get carried away with the symbols and not the actual.

God divorced the unfaithful of Israel (Isaiah 50:1 et al), but saved the faithful remnant (Isaiah 10:22).

God is not a polygamist, hence there exists, since the Church began, a single NT relationship with the Church as His Son's Bride and Wife. (Ephesians 5:31,32)

 

[rwb]

`Yet the number of the children of ISRAEL shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," there it shall be said of THEM, "You are sons of the living God."

Then the children of Judah and the children of ISRAEL shall be gathered together, and appoint for themselves one head; and they shall come up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel! Say to your brethren, "My PEOPLE." And to your sisters, "Mercy is shown." `(Hosea 110 & 11 2: 1)

God is talking about ISRAEL!

Yes! Israel of God! Not an ethnic people, but the people of God, people of faith from both Israel of Old and Gentiles of New.

How do you reconcile the contradiction you force into the Word of God?

Hosea 1:10 (KJV) Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Romans 9:27 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

John 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 (KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 John 3:1-2 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[rwb]

Eph. 4: 5: 22 does NOT say that the church is His bride. Those scriptures are an exhortation to husbands to love their wives as their own BODY as Christ does His BODY. And we are `members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones.` (Eph. 5: 30)

There is no word `her,` but `it` relating back to the doctrine of the BODY, the NEW MAN.

No doctrine can be based on an exhortation. The apostle Paul has laid out the doctrine of the BODY - the New Man (Eph. 2: 15) being brought to a mature man, (Eph. 4: 13) and to put on the new man, (Eph. 4: 24)

Reading the following verses and passages from Scripture and continuing to deny that we, the church/faithful saints are NOT the bride of Christ, Who is the bridegroom is akin to reading wearing a blind fold.

John 3:28-30 (KJV) Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.

Matthew 22:2 (KJV) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 19:7-9 (KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Church throughout Scripture is symbolically represented as the bride of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for the correction of the scripture.

I was just pointing out that God was referring to Israel Hos. 1: 10 & 11 and 2: 23 whereas Jeff was saying it was us.

Paul related those scriptures to both Jews and Gentiles. Why? Because what was not revealed in OT times but has been revealed in NT times is that Gentile believers are fellow heirs with Israelite believers of God's promises, as Ephesians 3:1-6 clearly indicates. Do you accept that Gentile believers are fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers, as Paul taught, or not?

God`s word says it is Israel.

Do you not think Paul's writings are God's word? He said it's Jew and Gentile believers together.

Paul is saying that God will have mercy on Israel and the gentiles. He is not saying that Hos. 1: 10 is us for the context says it is Israel.

Yes, it can seem on the surface that it's only talking about Israel, but did you read Ephesians 3:1-6 or not? The fact that God includes Gentiles in the OT promises to Israel was a mystery in OT times, but is revealed in NT times. Do you not accept the revealed mystery that God includes Gentiles in His promises that were originally made to Israel? God intended all along to includes Gentiles in His promises, but He purposely made that a mystery and kept that hidden until NT times where we can see that revealed in NT scriptures like Ephesians 3:1-6.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Peter 1: 20 & 21 `private interpretation` refers to `of its own` interpretation and not in line with all of scripture which as you rightly say `by the Holy Spirit.`

You don't seem to read what others say very carefully, which results in you rarely specifically addressing what was said. I said that the private interpretation that Peter talked about was a private interpretation of the prophets that the prophecy came from their own wills or minds instead of coming from the Holy Spirit. That passage has nothing to do with a person having their own interpretation of a given passage of scripture. The passage refers to the interpretations of prophecies given to the prophets. A private interpretation would mean a false prophet came up with a prophecy from their own mind. True prophecy came to the prophets from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Closer relationship is obvious - Head - Body - the New Man, the perfectman, put on the new man, we will be like Him. (Eph. 2: 15. 4: 13, 24 I john 3: 2) You have not addressed those scriptures that I posted, (except 1 John 3: 2)

What is there to address? None of those scriptures teach separate groups of God's people. All of them teach that all of God's people are one.

I said that the `city` was a community of people who rule in the universal realm over the earth. It is not a physical city I agree.

The city includes "all those who are saved" which are "those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:9-10). What believer from throughout history is not saved and does not have their names written in the book of life? All believers do. So, the New Jerusalem represents all believers from all time. Thanks to the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, all of God's people from throughout history have been brought together as one. This is something to celebrate and here you are repeatedly trying to divide God's people! That is unacceptable!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, In time the nation of Israel is the wife of God. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) this means His relationship with Israel is as a husband/master.

In eternity the `bride` of Christ symbolically represents the glory of God through this vehicle in the physical realms. (Rev. 21: 11, 23)

I think people get carried away with the symbols and not the actual.

Do you think the Israelites like the scribes and Pharisees who Jesus called hypocrites and a brood of vipers are part of the wife of God?

 

[Marilyn C]

God divorced the unfaithful of Israel (Isaiah 50:1 et al), but saved the faithful remnant (Isaiah 10:22).

God is not a polygamist, hence there exists, since the Church began, a single NT relationship with the Church as His Son's Bride and Wife. (Ephesians 5:31,32)

Eph. 5: 31 & 32

`For we are members of His BODY, of His flesh and of His bones. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh,:

That is an exhortation to husbands to love their wives as their own bodies for they are joined together as one flesh. Verse 30 reveals that we are of His BODY and the husband is to love his wife as his own BODY.

It is not a base for a doctrine.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes! Israel of God! Not an ethnic people, but the people of God, people of faith from both Israel of Old and Gentiles of New.

How do you reconcile the contradiction you force into the Word of God?

Hosea 1:10 (KJV) Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Romans 9:27 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

John 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 (KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 John 3:1-2 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

`...AND upon the Israel of God.` Two groups there.

Sons of God, yes to all who believe and are led by the Spirit of God. However, not all have the same place as a promised inheritance.

 

[Marilyn C]

Reading the following verses and passages from Scripture and continuing to deny that we, the church/faithful saints are NOT the bride of Christ, Who is the bridegroom is akin to reading wearing a blind fold.

John 3:28-30 (KJV) Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.

Matthew 22:2 (KJV) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 19:7-9 (KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17 (KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Church throughout Scripture is symbolically represented as the bride of Christ.

You are reading what the Lord said to ISRAEL. (John Matt.)

2 Cor. 11: 2 is what Paul is saying to his disciples. He wants to present them to the Lord pure. However, it is NOT Paul who will present us to the Lord, it is the Lord Himself.

`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...` (Jude 24)

As to Rev. the city, that was promised to the OT saints. (Heb. 11: 16)

 

[Marilyn C]

Paul related those scriptures to both Jews and Gentiles. Why? Because what was not revealed in OT times but has been revealed in NT times is that Gentile believers are fellow heirs with Israelite believers of God's promises, as Ephesians 3:1-6 clearly indicates. Do you accept that Gentile believers are fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers, as Paul taught, or not?


Do you not think Paul's writings are God's word? He said it's Jew and Gentile believers together.


Yes, it can seem on the surface that it's only talking about Israel, but did you read Ephesians 3:1-6 or not? The fact that God includes Gentiles in the OT promises to Israel was a mystery in OT times, but is revealed in NT times. Do you not accept the revealed mystery that God includes Gentiles in His promises that were originally made to Israel? God intended all along to includes Gentiles in His promises, but He purposely made that a mystery and kept that hidden until NT times where we can see that revealed in NT scriptures like Ephesians 3:1-6.

So we are all going to go and live in Israel?

 

[Marilyn C]

You don't seem to read what others say very carefully, which results in you rarely specifically addressing what was said. I said that the private interpretation that Peter talked about was a private interpretation of the prophets that the prophecy came from their own wills or minds instead of coming from the Holy Spirit. That passage has nothing to do with a person having their own interpretation of a given passage of scripture. The passage refers to the interpretations of prophecies given to the prophets. A private interpretation would mean a false prophet came up with a prophecy from their own mind. True prophecy came to the prophets from the Holy Spirit.

I read what you said but it does not line up. It still means that no individual scripture can be taken on its own but must line up with ALL of God`s word.

 

[Marilyn C]

What is there to address? None of those scriptures teach separate groups of God's people. All of them teach that all of God's people are one.


The city includes "all those who are saved" which are "those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:9-10). What believer from throughout history is not saved and does not have their names written in the book of life? All believers do. So, the New Jerusalem represents all believers from all time. Thanks to the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, all of God's people from throughout history have been brought together as one. This is something to celebrate and here you are repeatedly trying to divide God's people! That is unacceptable!

Eph. 2: 15 `the new man, Eph. 3: 13 `the mature man` Eph. 4: 24 `put on the new man,`

If the city has everyone, then who are the nations walking in its light and the kings who go up to the city to bring their honor into it? (Rev. 21: 24 & 25)

 

[Marilyn C]

Do you think the Israelites like the scribes and Pharisees who Jesus called hypocrites and a brood of vipers are part of the wife of God?

Obviously not.

 

[covenantee]

Eph. 5: 31 & 32

`For we are members of His BODY, of His flesh and of His bones. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh,:

That is an exhortation to husbands to love their wives as their own bodies for they are joined together as one flesh. Verse 30 reveals that we are of His BODY and the husband is to love his wife as his own BODY.

It is not a base for a doctrine.

You missed the key verse.

Ephesians 5
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

As honorable and hallowed as God has pronounced earthly marriage to be, it is eclipsed and transcended by the mystical marriage union between Christ and His Church.

That is profound, fundamental, indisputable Christian doctrine.

 

[Marilyn C]

You missed the key verse.

Ephesians 5
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

As honorable and hallowed as God has pronounced earthly marriage to be, it is eclipsed and transcended by the mystical marriage union between Christ and His Church.

That is profound, fundamental, indisputable Christian doctrine.

Yes, Christ and His Body - `For we are members of His BODY..` (Eph. 5: 30)

The New Man, (Eph. 2: 15) the mature man, (Eph. 4: 13) put on the new man, (Eph. 4: 24)

Remember those verses?

 

[covenantee]

Yes, Christ and His Body - `For we are members of His BODY..` (Eph. 5: 30)

The New Man, (Eph. 2: 15) the mature man, (Eph. 4: 13) put on the new man, (Eph. 4: 24)

Remember those verses?

I did not reference Ephesians 5:30. I referenced Ephesians 5:31,32.

Ephesians 5:31,32 are about the analogy of earthly marriage to the marriage of Christ and His Church.

Do you see that?

 

[Marilyn C]

I did not reference Ephesians 5:30. I referenced Ephesians 5:31,32.

Ephesians 5:31,32 are about the analogy of earthly marriage to the marriage of Christ and His Church.

Do you see that?

`Eph. 5: 31 "For this reason...` What reason? We have to look back to verse 30. `For we are members of His Body, His flesh and His bones.`

That is the reason - we are members of His Body, the new man, coming to a perfect, mature man, and we are to put on the new man.

Do you know where this church is the bride teaching came from? It was from the Catholic Church system. They were the first to call it `her.` And some believers are still getting deceived by this false teaching.

 

[covenantee]

`Eph. 5: 31 "For this reason...` What reason? We have to look back to verse 30. `For we are members of His Body, His flesh and His bones.`

That is the reason - we are members of His Body, the new man, coming to a perfect, mature man, and we are to put on the new man.

Do you know where this church is the bride teaching came from? It was from the Catholic Church system. They were the first to call it `her.` And some believers are still getting deceived by this false teaching.

And then Paul informs us in Ephesians 5:32 that he is speaking of Christ and the Church.

The Church is Christ's Bride and His Wife.

Both are "her"s.

Is Ephesians 5:32 in your Bible?