This is totally for Christian's

[Riven]

The words I use here are my choosing >> freewill.
GOD already knows what I will write >> foreknowledge.
DO you believe GOD makes me write what I write ?

God knew what you would write before you were even born. In this case, your future is already set in stone. You're merely living out God's divine plan for your life.

I find it interesting how Christians talk about a divine plan while simultaneously believing in freewill. You can't have it both ways.

 

[rvmb]

God knew what you would write before you were even born. In this case, your future is already set in stone. You're merely living out God's divine plan for your life.

I find it interesting how Christians talk about a divine plan while simultaneously believing in freewill. You can't have it both ways.

FOREKNOWLEDGE - My future is ALREADY known based on the freewill decisions I made/make
GOD has FOREKNOWLEDGE and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Riven]

FOREKNOWLEDGE - My future is ALREADY known based on the freewill decisions I made/make
GOD has FOREKNOWLEDGE and there's nothing you can do about it.

I agree. So if God already knows where a soul will end up after death, how can that soul make any decision that will change the course of events in theur lives that leads to a different outcome?

 

[rvmb]

I agree. So if God already knows where a soul will end up after death, how can that soul make any decision that will change the course of events in theur lives that leads to a different outcome?

"""how can that soul make any decision that will change the course of events"""
Is GOD currently telling you what to type or are you doing that all by yourself ?

 

[Riven]

"""how can that soul make any decision that will change the course of events"""
Is GOD currently telling you what to type or are you doing that all by yourself ?

If God knows what I'm going to type in advance, how can I choose to type anything else is God has perfect knowledge? What I'm typing here was always meant to happen. I can't deviate from the path that God has set.

 

[2bme]

You’re not being kept out of heaven because you wouldn’t like me there. You’re outside because you don’t want God there. Scripture says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God” ~Romans 8:7. That’s the real issue. Not personality, not preference. The human heart does not naturally want Him. Jesus said it plainly, “men loved darkness rather than light” ~John 3:19.


Heaven is not a place for people who agree to coexist with God. It is where God dwells in holiness. “There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth” ~Revelation 21:27. So God does not adjust heaven to the sinner. He commands the sinner to repent.

Right now you’re describing exactly what Christ warned: “ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” ~John 5:40. But the door is still open because “God… now commandeth all men every where to repent” ~Acts 17:30. This is not about whether you’d be happy there. It’s whether you will turn to the One who gives life before the door closes.

There are only two ends to this road. Jesus spoke of “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal” ~Matthew 25:46. Scripture calls the place of judgment hell, “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” ~Revelation 21:8. You don’t get a third option just because you prefer one. The choice now decides the destination then.

As for my known circumstances living on the streets of Melbourne, I must admit that I've won favour with the natural order of the universe. So I am confident now that the creator of the natural order of the universe is paying close attention to what this aspect of knowledge I am living out.

 

[rvmb]

If God knows what I'm going to type in advance, how can I choose to type anything else is God has perfect knowledge? What I'm typing here was always meant to happen. I can't deviate from the path that God has set.

""I can't deviate from the path that God has set.""
In advance He knows the path you choose.
Stop worrying, place your faith/trust/belief in the death/burial/resurrection of Christ to enter eternal life & as a thankyou try & lead a life that is pleasing to Him :)

 

[rvmb]

As for my known circumstances living on the streets of Melbourne, I must admit that I've won favour with the natural order of the universe. So I am confident now that the creator of the natural order of the universe is paying close attention to what this aspect of knowledge I am living out.

What book do you reference for your belief ?

 

[Riven]

""I can't deviate from the path that God has set.""
In advance He knows the path you choose.
Stop worrying, place your faith/trust/belief in the death/burial/resurrection of Christ to enter eternal life & as a thankyou try & lead a life that is pleasing to Him :)

That proves my point. We don't have freewill and we're being pre-judged before we're even born. It's stupid. It makes no sense.

 

[2bme]

What book do you reference for your belief ?

Why would I need a book for a belief?

 

[2bme]

That proves my point. We don't have freewill and we're being pre-judged before we're even born. It's stupid. It makes no sense.

So how does God's salvation work to save someone who he knows is destined for hell?

 

[rvmb]

Why would I need a book for a belief?

What is your belief based on ?
What book can others read to learn about what you believe ?

 

[rvmb]

That proves my point. We don't have freewill and we're being pre-judged before we're even born. It's stupid. It makes no sense.

Did you have the freewill to write what you just did or did GOD make you do it ?

 

[rockytopva]

7 And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.

8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being an hundred and ten years old.

9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.

10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the Lord, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim: - Judges 2

Question... Who is to blame for the generation going bad?

 

[Riven]

So how does God's salvation work to save someone who he knows is destined for hell?

Hell if I know.

Did you have the freewill to write what you just did or did GOD make you do it ?

God made me do it.

 

[2bme]

What is your belief based on ?
What book can others read to learn about what you believe ?

Is this a trick question? I am not reading a particular book for my source information.

 

[rockytopva]

Destiny... We don't know. As I am not worthy to look into the Book I don't know. I would imagine the Lambs Book of Life, sealed with seven seals as such...

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5

Seven stars - The messengers to each church
Seven seals - Each congregation sealed in the book of life
Seven candlesticks - Each movement... In which I would imagine...

1. Ephesus - Messianic Jewish Church
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

I believe Saint Valentine came out of the persecuted church of the Smyrnaen age. He would not have been known had he not written a love letter from prison... Signing it... Your Valentine. Happy Valentines day by the way.

 

[rockytopva]

Destiny... We don't know. As I am not worthy to look into the Book I don't know. I would imagine the Lambs Book of Life, sealed with seven seals as such...

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5

Seven stars - The messengers to each church
Seven seals - Each congregation sealed in the book of life
Seven candlesticks - Each movement... In which I would imagine...

1. Ephesus - Messianic Jewish Church
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

I believe Saint Valentine came out of the persecuted church of the Smyrnaen age. He would not have been known had he not written a love letter from prison... Signing it... Your Valentine. Happy Valentines day by the way.

And what I would imagine as the Smyrnaen Church Age

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. - Revelation 2

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days (from the Foxes Book of Martyrs)…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

Saint Valentine died February 14, 273 AD... Half way into the Emperor Aurelian's reign.

 

[Adventageous]

If

Since. By very definition, "God" is omniscient (all-knowing), otherwise that is not "God", but something else.

God knows everything

Yes. That is what "God" is by very definition. It is what scripture also says (Isa. 46:9-10, &c.)

, including all of the choices we will make in this life,

Yes. That is part of the definition of omniscient, or all-knowing.

he already knows who will be saved and who will be damned.

Yes. That is part of the definition of omniscient, or all-knowing.

Not only do we not have freewill,

Logical fallacy. You had some good premises, but the conclusion is skewed away from the logical steps previously taken. Knowing is not making the choosing. Knowing and choice are two differing things. The Person / Being of God and the person / being of the individual making a choice are two differing things. You have some category error as well.

- Person / Being "A" (Alpha) - God sets providence (options, "x", "y") before

- person / being "b" (beta) - they are able to freely choose, from those providences ("x", "y") set by God ("A") (there is no "z" option set by God's providences in this scenario)

- Person "A" knows (already, in advance) what person "b" will choose from among those providences ("x", "y"), knowing that person "b" will choose "x", rather than "y". Consequences / results follow from either choice. Cause to effect. Person "b" does not ever know (in this scenario) in advance what they are going to choose from among the providences of Person "A", until the very moment of their finalized choice / choosing. It is only then that they know their choice is "x". and not "y". Person "A" did not make them (person "b") choose "x" by simply knowing in advance. Knowing the result, does not negate the freedom of the opportunity up to the moment of the choosing / decision. They had been free to choose up to the moment of their choice, which afterward sealed (forever) the result that would follow, which God had already known of.

Think of it like this.

I have a video tape (VHS, old I know), of a football game, that I sat and watched and know all of the ins and outs of the decisions made by those in the game. I then allow another to watch this video with me. I know everything on that tape, from beginning to ending. The other person sitting next to me watching it, does not. Even if I had told them the ending, before they had finished, does that negate the individual choices that were made during the game itself? No. The knowledge (the record) of the results is not the choosing between options that ended in the results / record. It is not that those on the video tape could not choose otherwise than they had chosen, for all the options were present at each moment before their decisions were made / sealed, and once sealed, those options are now no longer available. The tape is simply the finalization of those collective choices (a record, a knowledge of those events), that are now sealed, and cannot be unchosen. They must bear the consequences / results of their own choices as recorded on the tape.

You are conflating the matter of after choosing, with before choosing. The sealed choice, does not negate the options present, and the ability to choose, up to the moment of choosing. Knowing in advance doesn't either. Knowing in advance simply knows what was chosen, what options were accepted and what options were rejected in finality.

There is no time-travel to undo a choice made. A person cannot 'change the choice' once that choices options are sealed by deciding and accepting the consequences of the choices made. New choices might be given though.

but we are also pre-judged even before we are born.

The world in general is condemned, yes. It cannot be otherwise. God is a ruler, and there is an eternal law, which law is love, and violation of such, brings separation from God, whom, is love and life. Therefore, separation from God brings only death, since apart from God there is no life.

In the beginning, Adam/Eve was/were given a choice. Adam/Eve ended up sinning, violating the law. Thus death was to come upon him/them, and since he (Adam) was the head of humanity, and he had no children, thus all mankind (genetically in him) would die with him because of it.

Each person (except Jesus), after Adam, has also sinned (in their own mistakes), and thus should die for their own.

The only reason any humanity, from Adam to you and me, are alive, is because of Jesus. Why focus only on the condemnation (which is just), and not the way out of the predicament of eternal death, by accepting a gracious offer to live?

A free man, who was innocent, takes a weapon and kills another man in cold blood. It is murder. The man is now condemned to die, and sentenced and is in jail awaiting execution. Lo and behold, there is a pardon issued by a judge. What choice will you choose? Remain on death row for the crime and be hanged, or take the offer and live a new life? You act like you have done nothing to deserve death. All mankind has done so. You act like you do not belong on death row. That is to admit that you are not accepting of your own crimes, and think your judgment better than that of the judge and the law itself. That is not going to get you anywhere any more than a real murderer, who refuses to admit their crimes. Sit down and think on your life. Read Exodus 20:1-17. Was it a selfless life or selfish one? If you had to sit in judgment of that life, and not think of it as your own, what would you honestly rule? Instead, think on the real judge and the real pardon being offered. The consequences are going to happen, no matter which choice you decide. Cause to effect. Sowing to reaping.

 

[bdavidc]

As for my known circumstances living on the streets of Melbourne, I must admit that I've won favour with the natural order of the universe. So I am confident now that the creator of the natural order of the universe is paying close attention to what this aspect of knowledge I am living out.

You’re not saved by surviving hardship, and you’re not condemned because life treated you unfairly. The question is not whether the universe noticed you. The question is whether you have come to Christ.

Creation does not reconcile you to God. Scripture says creation only leaves man without excuse: “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen… so that they are without excuse” ~Romans 1:20. Nature points to Him, but it does not forgive sin.

Favor with the “natural order” cannot cleanse a guilty heart. “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” ~Romans 3:23. And the problem is not environment but the heart: “the heart is deceitful above all things” ~Jeremiah 17:9.

God did not tell you to read meaning into circumstances. He gave a command: “God… now commandeth all men every where to repent” ~Acts 17:30. Not observe. Not interpret life. Repent.

And He gave one way of life: “neither is there salvation in any other” ~Acts 4:12. The same Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” ~John 14:6.

So confidence in experience is misplaced confidence. You can feel guided and still be lost. “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” ~Proverbs 14:12.

God is paying attention. That is exactly why the warning matters now. Turn to Christ while mercy is offered, because after this comes judgment ~Hebrews 9:27.