Could Ezekiel 37, 38 and 39 all be post millennial?

[grafted branch]

Thus the 2 Timothy 1 Scripture is metaphorically speaking about Christ having already defeated the devil via His death on the cross.

Some Amill folks would say Satan is currently bound metaphorically (not literally). Are you in agreement with them on this point?

 

[ewq1938]

Which death was destroyed in 2 Timothy 1:10, the first death or second death?

2 Timothy 1:10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed<2673> death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

The last part of the verse shows the context is about saved Christians who at the second coming will be immortal and thus the second death will not happen to them which could be expressed as death for them being destroyed. Death for the unsaved would still exist as well as teh first death even for saved Christians.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed<2673> is death.

That would fit Rev 20 where people die a second death, then death itself is destroyed just prior to the NHNE starting.

 

[Zao is life]

Immortal rebels is clearly an unbiblical concept.

As Satan said to Eve. "You will not surely die".

Until Adam and Eve sinned their bodies were not corruptible and they were able to eat freely of the tree of life and live forever (i.e they were indeed immortal before the fall of Adam).

We obviously don't agree with your belief in resurrected saints who become rebels running around on the new earth.

Satan believed in the potential of those who were, until then, uncorrupted and still living in incorruptible bodies and able to eat of the tree of life freely, to rebel.

I believe Jesus did too.

I know where you and all those who believe the same theology as you, get your own religion from (and why, like the Pharisees, your call your human traditional interpretations of God's words, "truth")

- because your belief is not taken from Genesis chapters 1-3, or from the Revelation, or from anything that either Jesus or His apostles said about immortality.

That's why you are calling the Revelation of God to mankind as revealed by God in the Bible "an unbiblical concept"

- while you parrot the theology of human tradition masquerading as the words of God, - human tradition which calls God Himself a liar

You are saying that created human beings have never been capable because they were and always will be incapable of rebellion against God brought about in the human heart through believing the lies of Satan, and the desire to sin because of the imagined benefits of sin.

You must not understand Amillennialism very well if you think we agree with you about this.

Here we go again.

I never suggested, implied or said Amillennialists agree with me about this - but once again, in order to make your own failed case look stronger, you have proved yourself yet again of being very good at knowingly making false assertions about what others said, believe, or implied by what they said.

There would be no Amillennialism if Amilennialists agreed with me about this.

Amillennialists see Revelation 20:11-15 as following Revelation 20:1-10 chronologically

You're arguing semantics again in order to making a pretense of honesty in the midst of your dishonesty.

Ammillennialists believe that Satan will be loosed again in the short time leading up to the great white throne judgment (Rev 20:7-10)

- which is also immediately preceded by Rev 19:11-21

- which according to Ammillennialism, makes the mention in the Revelation of the time spoken about in Rev 20:1-6 parenthetic to the time mentioned in

(a) Rev 19:11-21; and
(b) Rev 20:7-15

- not "chronologically following it"

- which according to you and all Amillennialists therefore makes the whole of Rev 20:1-10 parenthetic to the

(a) The 1st century; and
(b) the great white throne judgment.

 

[Zao is life]

There are two dif days of judgment but I was only proving that death exists until after the unsaved die the second time. Death is destroyed after that.

I know you believe that but I see too many scriptures that negate the above view - beginning with what Jesus Himself said about it:

T-H-E H--O-U-R is coming, in the which A-L-L that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- John 5:26-29

"I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." -- Revelation 20:11-12, & 15

"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." -- John 5:26-29, where Jesus talks about the hour that is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice ..

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."

THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST:

Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)
"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged,

and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth."

There are more, but that's enough for this post.

 

[grafted branch]

The last part of the verse shows the context is about saved Christians who at the second coming will be immortal and thus the second death will not happen to them which could be expressed as death for them being destroyed. Death for the unsaved would still exist as well as teh first death even for saved Christians.





That would fit Rev 20 where people die a second death, then death itself is destroyed just prior to the NHNE starting.

Ok, if I have your view correct you’re saying 2 Timothy 1:10 means the second death has already been destroyed for believers only. 1 Corinthians 15:26 means that after unbelievers die the second death then the second death is destroyed for them also.

Do you see no one experiencing the second death at some future point?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As Satan said to Eve. "You will not surely die".

Until Adam and Eve sinned their bodies were not corruptible and they were able to eat freely of the tree of life and live forever (i.e they were indeed immortal before the fall of Adam).

No, Adam and Eve did not have incorruptible and immortal bodies before they sinned because incorruptible and immortal bodies cannot die. Yet, Adam and Eve both died. You clearly do not even know what the word incorruptible and immortal mean.

incorrupible (adjective): not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

immortal (adjective): living forever; never dying or decaying.

You are trying to make the argument that someone with an incorruptible and immortal body can die, but that blatantly contradicts what the words incorruptible and immortal mean.

I just can't take you seriously when you deny such simple things as this. I did read the rest of your post as well, but it's pure garbage filled with false accusations and not worth my time to respond to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

- which according to you and all Amillennialists therefore makes the whole of Rev 20:1-10 parenthetic to the

(a) The 1st century; and
(b) the great white throne judgment.

I didn't bother responding to your lies about my HONEST understanding and response to what you had said, but I have to correct you here. Only partial preterist Amils would say that Revelation 20:1-10 (or Rev 20:1-9, at least) is parenthetic to the first century. Though all Amils don't take the thousand years literally, it surely didn't end in the first century. And I don't know of any Amils who would say that Revelation 20:10 is parenthetic to the great white throne judgment rather than believing that it occurs before the great white throne judgment. As I said, you don't seem to understand Amillennialism very well and you proved it again with comments like this one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know you believe that but I see too many scriptures that negate the above view - beginning with what Jesus Himself said about it:

T-H-E H--O-U-R is coming, in the which A-L-L that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- John 5:26-29

"I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." -- Revelation 20:11-12, & 15

"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." -- John 5:26-29, where Jesus talks about the hour that is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice ..

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Typical Premils, which you are obviously not, are forced to conclude that the above verses you quoted are somehow not referring to the same event as this...

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Because of that they are forced to either conclude that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire on two entirely separate occasions or, if they acknowledge that Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:15 refer to the same event, that somehow Matthew 25:41 occurs 1,000+ years after Jesus comes with His angels despite the fact that Jesus gave no indication of such at all and instead indicated that it would occur at the judgment that will occur at His second coming.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I am starting to notice a pattern: you are incapable at addressing counter arguments. All you have is heretical noise that you have been taught. It is a waste of time engaging with you. I refuse to give you any credibility.

You can’t, because you’ve already handed all of it over to the early Church Fathers and their councils.

You cannot speak about the original Gospel because you have never truly searched for it; and without the desire to seek it, your only option is to follow blind teachers.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The scripture teaches that Jesus is the divine Word that created all things. Can you present any scripture to refute that?

Scripture teaches Logos became and was made!

My "notions" are confirmed by the vast majority of scholars and church fathers. Perhaps you would do well to test yours. Maybe then you will see the hidden things from your eyes.

Like WPM, I’m noticing a consistent pattern in where you choose to place your trust. I would have thought that Christ coming to his own and being rejected by them would have taught you something about “teachers.”

 

[Davy]

Some Amill folks would say Satan is currently bound metaphorically (not literally). Are you in agreement with them on this point?

NO! of course not. I believe what God's WRITTEN Word says, not what MAN says The Word says.

The following Revelation 20:1-2 verses GO WITH the subject timing of the rest of that Chapter...

Rev 20:1-4
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

The ONLY way to properly understand God's written Word is line upon line, verse by verse, chapter by chapter. Those who pull out a single verse or two and chop off relevant verses that go with the subject often lack the proper meaning of the written Scripture. One must keep the FLOW in God's written Word.

The verses in RED above go with that 4th verse which is clearly about the time of the future resurrection unto Christ Jesus, which also signals that Christ had returned at that point. No real way to mess that timing up IF the flow of that Rev.20 Chapter is followed.

 

[ewq1938]

1 Corinthians 15:26 means that after unbelievers die the second death then the second death is destroyed for them also.

They die the second death in Rev 20 which is future. The second death is never destroyed for them because they die that death. Afterwards, death itself will be destroyed.

Do you see no one experiencing the second death at some future point?

Everything I said was about the future second death of the unsaved.

 

[grafted branch]

NO! of course not. I believe what God's WRITTEN Word says, not what MAN says The Word says.

The following Revelation 20:1-2 verses GO WITH the subject timing of the rest of that Chapter...

Rev 20:1-4
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

The ONLY way to properly understand God's written Word is line upon line, verse by verse, chapter by chapter. Those who pull out a single verse or two and chop off relevant verses that go with the subject often lack the proper meaning of the written Scripture. One must keep the FLOW in God's written Word.

The verses in RED above go with that 4th verse which is clearly about the time of the future resurrection unto Christ Jesus, which also signals that Christ had returned at that point. No real way to mess that timing up IF the flow of that Rev.20 Chapter is followed.

Ok, thanks for your response. I can see why you’re putting Revelation 20:1-4 at a future point in time and I realize the Amill folks put verses 1-3 in the past and us currently being in the millennium.

I don’t want to speak for you but I was thinking you probably put Satan being bound physically at a future point, but then it seemed like you were saying Satan was currently metaphorically bound in some kind of way in post #260 when you said “Thus the 2 Timothy 1 Scripture is metaphorically speaking about Christ having already defeated the devil via His death on the cross”.

Thanks for your clarification on this.

 

[grafted branch]

They die the second death in Rev 20 which is future. The second death is never destroyed for them because they die that death. Afterwards, death itself will be destroyed.

Ok, so back to 1 Corinthians 15:26, The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I think I might have misunderstood you, I thought you were saying this verse is talking about the second death. This verse is talking about the first (physical) death, right?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, so back to 1 Corinthians 15:26, The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I think I might have misunderstood you, I thought you were saying this verse is talking about the second death. This verse is talking about the first (physical) death, right?

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Seems the context and timeframe is after the Millennium so it would be all death being destroyed which is in Rev 20:14


It would be the last enemy left as satan and his angels and the unsaved would all be on the LOF so the last enemy would be death itself. It no longer exists in Rev 21:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[grafted branch]

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Ok, I would say the second death that the unbelievers experience is not an enemy to us believers, and it’s eternal so it’s not going to be destroyed. Revelation 6:10 How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

It would be the last enemy left as satan and his angels and the unsaved would all be on the LOF so the last enemy would be death itself. It no longer exists in Rev 21:

Well, once someone has been resurrected they can’t die again, so death has no power at that time, it’s destroyed when everyone gets resurrected. Why would you think death doesn’t get destroyed until it’s cast into the LOF? “Then cometh the end” can happen prior to the GWTJ, all rule, power, and authority is put down prior to the GWTJ.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, I would say the second death that the unbelievers experience is not an enemy to us believers, and it’s eternal so it’s not going to be destroyed.

Paul said death would be destroyed and John wrote that death did not exist in Rev 21.

Well, once someone has been resurrected they can’t die again, so death has no power at that time, it’s destroyed when everyone gets resurrected.

Not for everyone. Death ends when the saved are resurrected but the unsaved will be resurrected then die again.

Why would you think death doesn’t get destroyed until it’s cast into the LOF?

Because death exists until that happens.

“Then cometh the end” can happen prior to the GWTJ, all rule, power, and authority is put down prior to the GWTJ.

Sure. I was just showing that death is destroyed at the same basic timeframe of the end which could be the end of the age just prior to the short period of judgment.

 

[shepherdsword]

Scripture teaches Logos became and was made!

No, it doesn't. John 1:1 says the Logos was with God and the Logos was God. Looks look at what A.T. Robertson says.

Like WPM, I’m noticing a consistent pattern in where you choose to place your trust. I would have thought that Christ coming to his own and being rejected by them would have taught you something about “teachers.”

You sir, are in dire need of proper teaching. Your denial of the deity of Christ is slippery sand.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No, it doesn't. John 1:1 says the Logos was with God and the Logos was God. Looks look at what A.T. Robertson says.

View attachment 80185
View attachment 80186

You sir, are in dire need of proper teaching. Your denial of the deity of Christ is slippery sand.

Remember you started this conversation and I know in good conscience you cannot finish it with integrity.

You are unable to discern Johns reasonings because you infer pre-existence. You simply do not understand the second Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45: "The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

God (Almighty) cannot become a Life-Giving Spirit as He grants immortality to those whom He creates.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).

Jesus affirmed this by saying, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).

Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

“I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh (100% Human!) 4 and was declared to be the Son of God IN POWER according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:1–4.

God raised Christ and blessed him with immortality which is Divine nature (with Power) having it not in his possession previously.

So yes! Logos became Flesh and dwelt among us in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ who was granted LIFE as a result of his obedience.

Remove the granted LIFE from Christ and you remove Logos!

If you believe Christ was immortal before he was raised you remove Logos!

Jesus Christ was either given immortality by His Father, or he was not...if you say he was not, then you have lost your hope of eternal life.

What interesting is you cannot distinguish between Christ in the flesh and him glorified... you know not the difference!

Therefore you know not the Victory.

Conclusion:

If Christ was immortal before he was raised, it would undermine the Logos because the very essence of Jesus’ work was the obedient path he took, culminating in his resurrection and the granting of life by the Father. If we take away this granting of life, we lose the very victory that came from his obedience and resurrection.

Maybe it's time for you to approach John 1 with the whole picture of Christ life and purpose and God's work in him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

God is not, and can never be, the "last Adam."

To link Adam with God in any way would diminish the very essence of God's deity. God’s nature is eternal, uncreated, and transcendent, and associating Him with a created being like Adam (first or second) undermines His divine essence.

If you truly understand how the Logos became flesh, you would recognize the true nature of Christ. This understanding goes beyond any forced duality, as there is no scriptural basis for the concept of hypostasis (the doctrine of a "dual nature" in Christ).

Starting with an error inherently leads to more errors that follow.

This is what you have done with John 1:1-4; 18.