Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[Lizbeth]

Hell is the invention of man.

The Old testament,which the NT scribes could not corrupt, never teaches eternal damnation in fire. Never.

Therefore,if we know,accept,that Jesus was God,and some deny even that, and God does not change, then we know he did not create eternal damnation in flames to be suffered by those who he,Jesus,said,can only come to him if God allows.

Hell is the invention of the Catholic church.

And that is why their influence allowed Hell to be "taught" by Jesus. Their scribes wrote it down.

Then,the church burned heretics alive so watchers would get the message.

If Hell were real,given what Jesus actually taught,then God would be no better in character than Satan.

Because ,as the NT says, He only allows those whose consciousness he opens so to understand scripture to come to the knowledge of his truth. And be saved from his sending them to eternal fire? That's Omni benevolence?

The RCC invented a terroristic cult doctrine. And applied God's name to it.
The RCC is pagan.Which is why they have idols in their temples,venerate body parts of the dead,necromancy,and charged money,indulgences,to the gullible who were told EVERY CATHOLIC goes to micro hell,Purgatory,to burn off the residual sins they died in. Before being judged worthy of Heaven.
Pay indulgences,money,to the church and it's a get out of purgatory early ransom. The RCC today is the richest religious entity on Earth.
People in that time knew about the cult of Moloch. They knew what it was to be burned alive by a gods will.

I agree that the picture of hell that we have been given in the west is a medieval construct…agree that it came through the RCC. I don’t believe that “hell” is some sort of giant medieval torture chamber where people are being tortured for eternity. What I do glean from scripture is that hell is really simply sheol/grave/death/destruction….certainly hellish in appearance to look upon what takes place in the grave (and I'm not sure know what or if the souls of the unredeemed suffer in undergoing it).

There are so many scriptures…but I hope the following is enough to make the point, if any will take the time:

Job 21:17-32

How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it.
His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst?
Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet.
His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.
And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure.
They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

See the difference between the redeemed and the unredeemed here:

Psa 49:3-20

My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.
I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about? They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.
For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Job 26:6
Hell (sheol/grave) is naked before him (the Lord), and destruction hath no covering.

Job 31:1
I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?
For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high?
Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Psa 103:2-4
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

Can we see the difference between the wicked and the redeemed? The undredeemed wicked will never see light, they will not be redeemed....it means they perish, die, are destroyed in the grave…both body and soul as Jesus warned about…as opposed to being redeemed from the grave to inherit eternal life. It is either choose death or choose life, one or the other. Those who choose death will not see life, they will not inherit eternal life.

Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What I see in scripture seems to be a very strong and clear message and warning that to perish is to die, body and soul destroyed….. the redeemed will not suffer this fate, but receive life eternal, whereas the unredeemed will. God’s wrath is the sentence of death/destructions…the wages of sin is death. Death/wrath abideth on the unredeemed….as scripture testifies, fallen man is under the wrath of God already....because fallen man has been abiding under the sentence of death beginning way back in the Garden of Eden.

Psa 49:12
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jhn 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Jhn 8:52
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


More scriptures where the new testament speaks of the destruction/perdition of the unredeemed:

Mat 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Rom 3:16
Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Phl 3:19
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Ti 6:9
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[St. SteVen]

Can we see the difference between the wicked and the redeemed? The undredeemed wicked will never see light, they will not be redeemed....it means they perish, die, are destroyed in the grave…both body and soul as Jesus warned about…as opposed to being redeemed from the grave to inherit eternal life. It is either choose death or choose life, one or the other. Those who choose death will not see life, they will not inherit eternal life.

Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What I see in scripture seems to be a very strong and clear message and warning that to perish is to die, body and soul destroyed….. the redeemed will not suffer this fate, but receive life eternal, whereas the unredeemed will. God’s wrath is the sentence of death/destructions…the wages of sin is death. Death/wrath abideth on the unredeemed….as scripture testifies, fallen man is under the wrath of God already....because fallen man has been abiding under the sentence of death beginning way back in the Garden of Eden.

You have some strange ideas about redemption. As if some are redeemed and others are not.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[Button]

I agree that the picture of hell that we have been given in the west is a medieval construct…agree that it came through the RCC. I don’t believe that “hell” is some sort of giant medieval torture chamber where people are being tortured for eternity. What I do glean from scripture is that hell is really simply sheol/grave/death/destruction….certainly hellish in appearance to look upon what takes place in the grave (and I'm not sure know what or if the souls of the unredeemed suffer in undergoing it).

There are so many scriptures…but I hope the following is enough to make the point, if any will take the time:

Job 21:17-32

How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.
They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it.
His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
For what pleasure hath he in his house after him, when the number of his months is cut off in the midst?
Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet.
His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.
And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure.
They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

See the difference between the redeemed and the unredeemed here:

Psa 49:3-20

My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.
I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about? They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.
For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Job 26:6
Hell (sheol/grave) is naked before him (the Lord), and destruction hath no covering.

Job 31:1
I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?
For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high?
Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Psa 103:2-4
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

Can we see the difference between the wicked and the redeemed? The undredeemed wicked will never see light, they will not be redeemed....it means they perish, die, are destroyed in the grave…both body and soul as Jesus warned about…as opposed to being redeemed from the grave to inherit eternal life. It is either choose death or choose life, one or the other. Those who choose death will not see life, they will not inherit eternal life.

Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What I see in scripture seems to be a very strong and clear message and warning that to perish is to die, body and soul destroyed….. the redeemed will not suffer this fate, but receive life eternal, whereas the unredeemed will. God’s wrath is the sentence of death/destructions…the wages of sin is death. Death/wrath abideth on the unredeemed….as scripture testifies, fallen man is under the wrath of God already....because fallen man has been abiding under the sentence of death beginning way back in the Garden of Eden.

Psa 49:12
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jhn 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Jhn 8:52
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


More scriptures where the new testament speaks of the destruction/perdition of the unredeemed:

Mat 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Rom 3:16
Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Phl 3:19
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Ti 6:9
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I'll go with the first verse of Job 21. Because it deals with the wickedness,sin,punishment,etc...im the other verses.

Job notices in chapter 21 the contradiction in thinking the wicked always suffer and the righteous prosper.
Job knows the wicked will sometimes prosper and die in their beds happy.

Another thing to consider overall is, the failings of man is due to the curse of God upon us.

 

[Lizbeth]

You have some strange ideas about redemption. As if some are redeemed and others are not.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

I don’t know what translation you are using or why you consistently isolate verses and ignore context. Context here is about the gospel being open and available to “all”, ie both Jew and Gentile (the world). And these very scriptures also affirm very plainly the need to believe in Jesus to be justified/saved. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but it's as though you can't read.

Rom 3:21-29

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned (both Jew and Gentile), and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 

[Lizbeth]

I'll go with the first verse of Job 21. Because it deals with the wickedness,sin,punishment,etc...im the other verses.

Job notices in chapter 21 the contradiction in thinking the wicked always suffer and the righteous prosper.
Job knows the wicked will sometimes prosper and die in their beds happy.

Another thing to consider overall is, the failings of man is due to the curse of God upon us.

You want to "go with" the first verse of Job 21 and ignore all the other scriptures...? Yes, all die....the flesh is dead because of sin.....but only the redeemed are resurrected to life and receive immortal bodies....that is what salvation of the soul is all about...the unredeemed are resurrected to everlasting shame and contempt...and turned back over to be destroyed in hell, ie, in the grave/sheol.... as all those scriptures I posted are talking about....quite clearly and plainly I thought.

 

[rockytopva]

Sources of comfort....

1. The Flesh
2. The Holy Spirit

I would encourage those here to wait upon that great comforter known as the Holy Ghost...

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. - John 14

 

[St. SteVen]

I don’t know what translation you are using or why you consistently isolate verses and ignore context. Context here is about the gospel being open and available to “all”, ie both Jew and Gentile (the world). And these very scriptures also affirm very plainly the need to believe in Jesus to be justified/saved. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but it's as though you can't read.

That's not the point.
Redemption came from Christ for all humankind. All are freely justified.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[Button]

That's not the point.
Redemption came from Christ for all humankind. All are freely justified.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Yes. And too,the OT tells us we do not die and go to hell. Sheol is the grave. Yes,unless one is cremated and then returns to dust.

The OT tells us when we die our soul returns to God.
No caveats like,unless we die condemned in our sin.

Some need fear so to obey.
That's not Jesus.

 

[Lizbeth]

That's not the point.
Redemption came from Christ for all humankind. All are freely justified.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Those scrips are the point. But falling on deaf ears, I'm afraid. And v. 24 doesn't say "all" in any case...your translation has added that word.

Salvation is by FAITH in Christ......justification is by FAITH in Christ, not without it. All of scripture warns of a coming judgment/wrath/destruction for the wicked, the sinner and the unbelieving. For them, their spirit returns to God who gave it, their body is consumed/dissolved in the grave (hell/sheol/gehenna).........therefore their soul is not living on afterward.

The wrath of God is not purgatory, it is not "chastisements" but is destruction, ie death, which is the wages of sin. Clear teachings of scripture......all over the bible, from beginning to end. That of course is why Jesus to fear Him who is able to destroy body and soul in hell (gehenna). But you don't believe Him apparently.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes. And too,the OT tells us we do not die and go to hell. Sheol is the grave. Yes,unless one is cremated and then returns to dust.

The OT tells us when we die our soul returns to God.
No caveats like,unless we die condemned in our sin.

Some need fear so to obey.
That's not Jesus.

No, it says the SPIRIT (ruah) returns to God who gave it. The soul is spirit and body together. Salvation of the soul (eternal life) requires redemption of the body also.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Your Protestant evangelical view does not account for the countless billions who have never had an opportunity to respond to the gospel that you claim limits who will be saved. Have you not heard of unreached people groups?

Malachi 3:17 “They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession…”

 

[Button]

No, it says the SPIRIT (ruah) returns to God who gave it. The soul is spirit and body together. Salvation of the soul (eternal life) requires redemption of the body also.

No it doesn't. He body returns to dust.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That's not the point.
Redemption came from Christ for all humankind. All are freely justified.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

And v. 24 doesn't say "all" in any case...your translation has added that word.

The "all" is at the beginning of verse 23 and should carry over grammatically into vs 24.
The same all is being referred to. All have sinned and are justified freely.

That of course is why Jesus to fear Him who is able to destroy body and soul in hell (gehenna).

He's able, but is He willing?

 

[St. SteVen]

The wrath of God is not purgatory, it is not "chastisements" but is destruction, ie death, which is the wages of sin. Clear teachings of scripture......all over the bible, from beginning to end.

There are plenty of contradictions, or seeming contradictions in the Bible.
You holler CONTEXT when I bring verses, and bring a contradictory verse from elsewhere in the chapter.
You say you support all scripture but can only explain away what my verses plainly say.

 

[Lizbeth]

No it doesn't. He body returns to dust.

Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?



But yes, the natural body dies and the spiritual body comes forth at the resurrection and rapture:

1Co 15:35-37
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:……

1Co 15:43-44
……It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Button]

Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?



But yes, the natural body dies and the spiritual body comes forth at the resurrection and rapture:

1Co 15:35-37
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:……

1Co 15:43-44
……It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I'll hold to what Ecclesiastes 12 teaches us.

Platonism was a big influence in the NT. People couldn't comprehend an afterlife without a body.

God Bless.

 

[Beebster]

All must be destroyed as was Christ. Paul, Peter and all of God's elect and the rest of the church and the sea of humanity must all be destroyed.

All too will be saved but in certain order just as St St. Steven has been trying to explain and doing a fine job I might add.

 

[soberxp]

Faith is not a belief masquerading as vengeance; belief is redemption. Believe that Jesus Christ is the savior, not that Jesus Christ is the key to helping you seek revenge.

The lesson from Job.

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
That's not the point.
Redemption came from Christ for all humankind. All are freely justified.

Romans 3:23-24 NIV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

The "all" is at the beginning of verse 23 and should carry over grammatically into vs 24.
The same all is being referred to. All have sinned and are justified freely.


He's able, but is He willing?

The Lord is not wanting that any should perish, yet scripture is very clear that many will. Funny that you are alluding/citing that verse when you don't believe any will perish. But you still havent' answered my question about what it means to perish and be destroyed. The human spirit returns to God who gave it (kind of reabsorbed by Him maybe we could say...?), but the body/soul is destroyed in gehenna/grave/sheol/fire. The body without the spirit is dead and for unbelievers will be returned to death after the judgment...second death, pictured as the lake of fire...to be consumed. When God breathed on Adam, man "became" a living soul.....body and spirit together make up the soul. When believers are resurrected we'll be resurrected with a new heavenly/spiritual body and our spirit returned to it...that is how our soul is saved unto eternal life, when our bodies are redeemed.

The Lord is not a monster, but people essentially bring judgment upon themselves, sadly, the natural consequences of their free will choices. God made the "universe" and us the way He did in a certain way.....and when we fall out of line with His holiness and purity, and the way He made us and the universe, bad things kind of naturally ensue. God's word is right, it happened just as He has told us.....Every individual chooses to believe the devil at some point, and we all FELL...into the fowler's snare....we all succumbed to whatever temptation came and chose to go our own way , a way that "seemeth-ed" right to us at the time but wasn't......we stepped into the snare. and it snapped shut over us like a bear trap. Just like Eve. We all chose in our proud and rebellious heart to obey/believe the devil and disobey the Lord and His way.

God has lovingly and graciously provided a way out, to lift us out of being helplessly trapped in the mud and mire, and put our feet upon the Rock, but "few" are willing to take it. He knows us much better than we know ourselves, and His word is amazingly right, all the time. God showed me when it happened to me, I was almost still a toddler, not yet three, and it got locked away in darkness, out of the reach of my awareness and memory, but He was gracious and faithful to bring it back to mind...the longer I live the more I see and experience the truth of His word.......we need to just BELIEVE Him.....He knows absolutely everything and is all wise. There are so many things that we don't know or are not conscious of....... and everything He says and had written down is the truth. We are like children, completely unaware of how much we don't know and yet need to learn.....or remember being a teen thinking you had it all figured out quite well enough and were just fine on your own, and nobody could tell you anything. We are simply unaware of what we are unaware of. It certainly is best to just believe and obey our heavenly Father who does all things well and sees and knows so much more than we do, everything in fact...nothing is hid to Him, as scripture says.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Lord is not wanting that any should perish, yet scripture is very clear that many will.

So, the will of humans supersedes God's will?
The scripture is pretty clear about eternal conscious torment, but you don't believe in that.
You make your choices and I make mine.

Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Funny that you are alluding/citing that verse when you don't believe any will perish. But you still havent' answered my question about what it means to perish and be destroyed.

It's not individuals that perish and are destroyed, but rather sin.
We'll all need some barnacle removal before we are done.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.