The sons of God

[Zao is life]

The Book of Enoch 1.1 & 1.2 & 1.3
1.1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, according to which he blessed the chosen and righteous, who must be present on the Day of Distress, which is appointed, for the removal of all the wicked and impious.
1.2 And Enoch took up his parable, and said: There was a righteous man, whose
eyes were opened by the Lord, and he saw a Holy vision in the Heavens, which the Angels showed to me, and I heard everything from them. And I understood what I saw, but not for this generation, but for a distant generation that will come.
1.3 Concerning the chosen, I spoke, and I uttered a parable concerning them: The Holy and Great One will come out from His dwelling.

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Parable:

A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn; as, the parables of Christ. (The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48).

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The Book of Enoch 37.1
"The Vision of Wisdom, which Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Malalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, saw."

The Book of Enoch 79.1
"And now, my son Methuselah, I have shown you everything, and the whole Law of the Stars of Heaven is complete."

Luke 3:37-38
".. Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Genesis 6
2 The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

Where New Testament scripture talks about God's creation:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Job 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding.

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There is only one morning star - and Jesus called Himself the morning star in the Revelation.

Based (as the statement in verse 7 is) on the question Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?", verse 7's reference to "all the sons of God" could just as easily be taken to mean God is using an oxymoron to rhetorically tell Job that neither Job, nor any of the sons of Seth / sons of God were present when God created the heavens and the earth.

PARABLES IN THE BOOK OF ENOCH

1. The book of Enoch contains parables.
2. (Human) sons of God giving themselves over to evil spirits, and these evil spirits possessing them is not unknown to the Bible. The term sons of God only appears in these verses in the Old Testament: Genesis 6:2 & 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; and Job 38:7, but there is a long list of verses where the Old Testament mentions angels - never calling them "the sons of God".

Where the New Testament calls the sons of Seth the sons of God:

Luke 3
38 (Cainian), Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Where scripture talks about human sons of God appearing before the LORD:

Exodus 23
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord.

There was worship offered to God before Noah's day by the sons of Seth, and following Noah's day by the sons of Shem.

Where the Revelation speaks about the brethren being accused by Satan:

Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now has come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

We know that the accuser of the brethren came to accuse Job (the passage does not imply that he came to accuse "fallen angels").

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?

IMO pushing "fallen angels" into what is being said in the Old Testament verses where the term the sons of God appears, is to fail a reading comprehension test - because what is being said in each verse makes NO MENTION of spirit beings.

It's only people who have been taught that fallen angels is what it's referring to, who believe in what quite possibly is a lie - because Enoch was uttering a parable. Fallen angels no doubt had a lot to do with what the sons of God were doing in Genesis 6 - but this does not mean that it was the fallen angels themselves who were able to do it - Enoch talks about fallen angels teaching men how to craft weapons of war etc. It sounds a lot more like demonic possession rather than fallen spirit-messengers possessing in themselves the human DNA needed to procreate.

 

[Douggg]

I did a word search for "morning star" in the kjv. The impression I get is the term implies a glorified appearance.

 

[Zao is life]

Why does God tell us that Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, if He did not know, and provide a way for them to escape both sin and death through sin? Of course this was the plan of God before creation, knowing man created with complete autonomy would NEVER choose to serve another not even the Creator. They would always choose self-rule, independent from God. Always desiring to be their own masters. That's why God allowed the serpent to test/try/temp A&E so they would come to know evil with death that comes from darkness and the goodness of God that is of the Light.

John 17:24 (KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:18-20 (KJV) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Acts 2:23-24 (KJV) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.



You continue to cast dispersions upon my character, but I notice all you have is opinion, and not a single verse to prove what you allege.



If this is true you should be able to prove from the Word of God how I am blaspheming God! But all you have in opinions. Btw I feel I am in good company because Christ was also accused of blasphemy for speaking the truth.

John 10:33 (KJV) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.



It seems you are out of your mind! It was OK for them to disobey God! Are you kidding? Was bringing sin and death through sin to all humanity OK? What you just don't seem to get is how God not only knew A&E would disobey Him, before they did Christ according to Covenant promise of which God cannot lie, was ordained to be the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world! God did not want them to sin but clearly KNEW they would. Which is why He made provisions for both sin and death through sin from before the foundation of the world. You have much to learn, lacking almost all understanding of the Sovereignty of God over ALL of creation. BUT GOD, determined, despite man's disobedience to have a people from the human race to be His own. That my sad, unknowledgeable human is according to God's MERCY and GRACE! Of which you appear to lack all understanding of!

The next time if you choose again to reply, try to remember this is a forum for discussing the BIBLE, not your unbiblical opinions!

Once again you twist the Word of God - and later you will deny that YOU have used the foreknowledge of God - in which before the foundation of the world He chose all those of us who believe in Christ to be saved IN CHRIST

- as if it supports what YOU say God intended when He commanded Adam NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The foreknowledge of God does not preclude the fact that what He commanded Adam NOT to do, He fully intended for Adam to obey and NOT to do - because He is GOD and He is perfectly good.

The only biblical fact of the matter is that God intervened in the person of Christ in order to undo the evil that was done through the SIN of Adam's disobedience, and in His foreknowledge He purposed to do so because He knew He would have to do so because there would be no other way.

God did NOT (as YOU have falsely claimed) INTEND for Adam to disobey "in order that" (as YOU have falsely claimed) He could "use evil for good"

- which YOU in YOUR blasphemous assessment of the will and ways of God - have now falsely claimed is supported by the fact that in His foreknowledge God appointed Christ for our salvation BEFORE the foundation of the world.

You are a blasphemer who blasphemes God by ascribing motive, desire and intention to Him that He is not even capable of, because He is perfectly good - nor does the Bible imply anything other than what is mentioned in the commandment "You shall NOT .. "

The Bible is not what you talk about. It's your opinions. It is YOU - not scripture - who says that God "desired" (your words) for Adam and Eve to disobey.

 

[Douggg]

Let me remind this to all of you...Jesus Christ is THEE bright and morning star. Lucifer is not the morning star. He is shinning son "OF" the morning. The meaning of [heylel] is shinning. It is from the root Hebrew word [halal], literally to be clear, and by extension that which is transparent or has a shine. I do not believe that it is really as complicated as many people would make it out to be. A near literal reading of this sentence would be:

"How art thou fallen from heaven shinning son of the morning! Thou art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

"shinning" make sense.

Ezekiel 28:16-17, also implies the same thing about Satan.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

[Zao is life]

I did a word search for "morning star" in the kjv. The impression I get is the term implies a glorified appearance.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=morning+star&bsec=&order=0&bookfilter=&s=1

I think the Hebrew words mean, "Shining star, son of the morning" but it really doesn't matter because it's only a metaphor for the subject, namely, the king of Babylon who had exalted himself - and @TribulationSigns has explained the Bible's use of metaphor (at the inspiration of God) very, very well in his post.

There's been too much ignorance about these facts taught from behind too many pulpits for too many decades - which has given rise to many false doctrines and even myths taught on top of it - and it's extremely difficult to get anyone who already believes something else, to go back to God in prayer and to re-read passages like Isaiah 14 in order to understand them properly - even though the way TribulationSigns has explained it is the way most learned Jews have always - to this day - understood them, and the apostles would have understood Isaiah 14 that way too.

 

[Zao is life]

"shinning" make sense.

Ezekiel 28:16-17, also implies the same thing about Satan.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Go back to Ezekiel 28:2 and say again who God is talking to - because that's who Ezekiel 28:16-17 implies God is talking to.

The language of prophecy is poetry which uses symbolism, hyperbole, simile and metaphor - and even sarcasm - all to make a point, and to make that point extra clear by using all these as illustrations.

Yet you still do not understand, no matter how clearly and illustratively the point has been made, and no matter how clearly the passage is talking about a human king - and talking TO the human king.

 

[Taken]

Lucifer means 'the morning star'.

Agree.

Christ is the 'morning star'.

Disagree.

“The” morning star(S)…

In brief.

I believe…
Two “Spirits”… were present, observing, Gods Creations and Making of “the Earth and its Works, seas, plants, animals, and ultimately MAN.

The “TWO” Spirits…First simply “identified” “as morning starS”…a snippet of basic info.
And their PRESENCE of observing (ie two witnesses) Gods works.

Later learning…
Stars… (any man can see Thousands of stars in the night sky)
Are a mans snippet ( representative of the thousands of Angel Servants of God).

The Angels ARE… spirits.
Human HAVE a spirit.

Angels WERE all in the beginning… HOLY…
Ie. Faithful …Righteous… Servants of God.

FREEWILL-
Stay and Remain Holy WITH God?
Leave and DO THEIR OWN WILL AGAINST God?
(Humans…can hear, learn, observe, over course of time… the consequence…
With or Without God…
For Angels…and ultimately MAN.)

WHO ARE- the “Two witness Morning Stars”?

1) Jesus.
2) Lucifer
How to Know that?
Later info revealed…

Jesus…Spirit…Word of God…
From the Beginning…
When God Speaks… His WORD comes forth.
Gen. 1:3…. “God said”
Later name (Jesus) revealed.
Called “Faithful, True, Son.”
Visits Earth.
Does righteous Works For God.
Returns to Heaven.
Plans to Return to Earth.


Lucifer…Spirit… “Son of the morning”.
Isa 14:
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
* in heaven
* observing Gods Works.
* thinks “In his heart”…”he can rise ABOVE God, capture, (from God) have, control, rule, ALL of Gods Creations.
* fallen from heaven
* called “son”.
* morning a first, morning
* out of heaven
* down to Earth.
* Visible to man, serpent
* cunning, lies
* A devil,
* called Satan
* From Holy status With God to UN-Holy status without God.

The “first” Spirits…Witnesses…Creation…
Called … sons, angels, stars, faithful, true, lies, fallen, heaven, earth, up, down….etc. etc.
Division…is revealed.
Their Works…are revealed.
Their Consequences…are revealed.
Their Status / Name / reputation revealed…
Their purposes…model examples For ManKIND… are revealed.


son…Lucifer..WAS a morning star…WAS bright, outside beautiful, powerful, talented…
Music particularly)…
And “LOST”…. his LIGHT / Brightness, beauty.
His WILL, cunning, lies, deceit, trickery, always trying to steal, kill, take, what was not his.
And? Has become the MODEL WAY to forever become Separated FROM God.

Son…Jesus…WAS a morning star…WAS bright, outside no beauty, not highly powerful, no talented expressed…
Listened…Followed…Dutiful…Trustworthy…Giving, Faithful….
And?
Has become…the ONE…of ultimate beauty, truth, giving, serving, love, power, trust, Brightness…and MODEL WAY… to forever Be… Become Adjoined and Remain WITH God.

And manKIND?
FREEWILL to choose whom to be their model and WAY to follow.

And? ManKIND through centuries, generations, can Observe…
WHO… of other manKIND….does What…
Fixated on Outer beauty only.
Fixated on taking what OTHERS HAVE earned. (Scamming, cheating, stealing, killing, demanding).
And the “Music”… ? So much proudly disgusting!

Bottom line…
Angels (Spirits Began Holy)… and can Freely choose to Fall AWAY.

Humans … Begin unholy…and can Freely Choose Gods Offering to become MADE holy….and KEPT holy, by, through, of Gods Power.

Can you biblically prove Satan called the morning star (Lucifer) is ever identified as being the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star?

Absolutely NOT, nor have I ever said such a thing.

The “morning stars”… were Lucifer and Jesus.
Lucifer Went Against God…Fell Away.
Jesus Remained in Agreement and WITH God…Thus remains…
The BRIGHT Morning Star.

Jesus…WAS NOT a “Stock” son Of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David..

Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David… forward “STOCK” offsprings… are their “BLOOD” “SEED”… offsprings….that God “Divided” (from others) calling The STOCK… ISRAEL… and all others … GENTILES.

Jesus WAS not “STOCK”… of a mans SEED.
I am NOT “STOCK”… of an ISRAELITES SEED.

ABRAM…natural man… had a Service encounter with God… and with Gods High Priest Servant…
AND (Spiritually) received A “Rebirth” of his
“spirit” …
ABRAM….to new name… Abraham, Supernatural Spirit “reborn”, Father figure of All STOCK offspring ISRAELITES….
Isaacs, Jacob, David (king)… filtering down to “highlights” of “Faithful” “Stock” descendants.

Some… stock descendants… are, remain, reject Faithfulness to God.
Some remain citizens of ISRAEL, some are scattered in many different nations citizenry

But Me… born a Stock, Gentile…
Can Do… Similar as Jesus… (Spirit, sent from Heaven)…Did…

What?
“take upon myself… agree to Receive”… the SAME “Spiritual Seed”…. Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, Jesus….-> Received…

And THAT “SEED”…. IS “Gods SEED”…
That SEED is “called”… Christ.
Receipt of THAT Seed…
Does not make Gentiles become Israelites , or Israelites become Gentiles…
Receiving THAT Seed, Gods Seed, Called CHRIST … “Makes” the recipient…
“A holy son of God”…
A perfect man? No.
An all knowing man? No.
A man spiritually “PERFECTED” IN Christ.
“IN” Christ means… you have “already confessed…”
“True Heartful belief”
Know your body WILL die…
But… have agreed your body’s DEATH … IS your willing PAYMENT…for your sin… of Having from your natural birth , lived a time of NOT believing in God.
Your body Crucified with Jesus Body …
Is “a satisfactory promise a man makes to God….”…
And “in-Turn”… you “temporarily” LIVE IN Jesus “Perfected RISEN Body”…(until your own body physically dies and is risen up IN its own New body”…

Gal 3:
[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Heb 10:
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1John.2
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1John.4
[12] No man hath seen God at any time. If
^^^ FREEWILL Choice…

we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Douggg]

Go back to Ezekiel 28:2 and say again who God is talking to - because that's who Ezekiel 28:16-17 implies God is talking to.

Ezekiel 28:1-10, the prince of Tyrus is a code name for the revealed man of sin.

Ezekiel 28:12-19, the king of Tyrus is a code name for Satan.

 

[talons]

Lucifer means 'the morning star'.

See below under agree .

Agree.

Unless you are a KJV ONLY , then I guess ya'll are stuck with the name "Lucifier " The evidence in all the other translations points to the fact that the KJV got it wrong .
I am not saying the scriptures in Isaiah and Ezekiel don't allude to Satan or not .

THE NAME LUCIFER HAS NEVER BELONGED TO SATAN

NASB 1977
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Legacy Standard Bible
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Amplified Bible
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, You who have weakened the nations [king of Babylon]!

Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

American Standard Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Contemporary English Version
You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.

English Revised Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst lay low the nations!

GOD'S WORD® Translation
How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!

Good News Translation
King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

International Standard Version
"How you have fallen from heaven, Day Star, son of the Dawn! How you have been thrown down to earth, you who laid low the nation!

NET Bible
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!

Let me remind this to all of you...Jesus Christ is THEE bright and morning star. Lucifer is not the morning star. He is shinning son "OF" the morning. The meaning of [heylel] is shinning. It is from the root Hebrew word [halal], literally to be clear, and by extension that which is transparent or has a shine.

@TribulationSigns , I agree .

 

[Taken]

If you cannot answer these inconsistencies from the Word of God, perhaps you should pay more attention to what the Bible actually tells us, and less attention to what those who believe a lie try to force into the Word of God.

Consistencies… regarding Spirits angels and ManKIND..

Because the “Created and Made”. We’re CREATED….AND….MADE in one Fashion … and FREEWILL Applies to angels and manKIND…

The Created “Thing”… Angel /man…
Will always be it’s same “called identifier Thing”…
Angels do not become men.
Men do not become Angels…
Either can be (called the other, act like the other, but one does not become the other).

Same as Angels, men, can behave / act LIKE God, but they do not become God.

Meaning… they remain Consistent… the same Thing.

However The “MAKING”… of a created thing…CAN, Might, is Possible to become “Changed”…

Man was created….and MADE Good…
That Changed… by mans FREEWILL choosing.

Mankind is Offered a WAY to reconcile with God and be Restored… MADE… not only GOOD…. But perfected … and MADE Holy.

Choice^^^

Mankind can Reject that Offering, and thus remain, Not good, not acceptable for God to be with and Keep WITH Him…
And the Divided, shall ultimately be Separated.

Same with Angels…Reject their Good… as they were MADE… and become themselves MADE Rejected.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Those verses are not referring to Lucifer who is Satan.

?
Isa. 14:
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,

 

[Taken]

See below under agree .

Unless you are a KJV ONLY , then I guess ya'll are stuck with the name "Lucifier " The evidence in all the other translations points to the fact that the KJV got it wrong .
I am not saying the scriptures in Isaiah and Ezekiel don't allude to Satan or not .

THE NAME LUCIFER HAS NEVER BELONGED TO SATAN

NASB 1977
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Legacy Standard Bible
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Amplified Bible
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, You who have weakened the nations [king of Babylon]!

Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

American Standard Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Contemporary English Version
You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.

English Revised Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst lay low the nations!

GOD'S WORD® Translation
How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!

Good News Translation
King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

International Standard Version
"How you have fallen from heaven, Day Star, son of the Dawn! How you have been thrown down to earth, you who laid low the nation!

NET Bible
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!

@TribulationSigns , I agree .

To whom else (such man)it applies…

Job 38:
[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


The morning stars…
Holy Lucifer…
The Holy Word of God (no name yet revealed)
Both called sons of God…

And the rest of the heavenly host (other Angels)… also watching Gods Creation and Making Earth and it’s Elements for its inhabitants….to bee revealed.

An exciting time… for Angels…
Pondering… “their Purpose”… being unfolding before their eyes…

Holy Ministering Spirits to Terrestrial humans.

Lucifer… missed the mark.
His “Making” has changed, according to his FREEWILL choices.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

See below under agree .

Unless you are a KJV ONLY , then I guess ya'll are stuck with the name "Lucifier " The evidence in all the other translations points to the fact that the KJV got it wrong .
I am not saying the scriptures in Isaiah and Ezekiel don't allude to Satan or not .

THE NAME LUCIFER HAS NEVER BELONGED TO SATAN

NASB 1977
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Legacy Standard Bible
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Amplified Bible
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, You who have weakened the nations [king of Babylon]!

Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

American Standard Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Contemporary English Version
You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.

English Revised Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst lay low the nations!

GOD'S WORD® Translation
How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!

Good News Translation
King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

International Standard Version
"How you have fallen from heaven, Day Star, son of the Dawn! How you have been thrown down to earth, you who laid low the nation!

NET Bible
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!

@TribulationSigns , I agree .

Lucifer & Unnamed Word of God…
Called sons of God.
Both presented as a hierarchy above other angels…
Host of all other angels, at this “beginning point”… are all sons of God…

FREEWILL… of Angels is revealed…
Some obedient Servants…
Some taking humans as wives.
Some Going along with “Satan”… with IDEA to Rule Above God.
Some Thinking without regard of ruling Gods Heavenly Kingdom. They can become High ruler of Earth and humans.
Some being “appointed” (by God) hierarchy “positions”…power, purpose, appearance…
Cherubim, Seraphim, archangels, Guardian. Fallen..

IMO - Gods Heavenly Governance Cabinet.
Similar to The Founders of US, using Gods Design. (Chiefs, Generals, President, (three-Triune tiered Cabinet and specific duties)… to Serve the People.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rwb]

Once again you twist the Word of God - and later you will deny that YOU have used the foreknowledge of God - in which before the foundation of the world He chose all those of us who believe in Christ to be saved IN CHRIST

- as if it supports what YOU say God intended when He commanded Adam NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The foreknowledge of God does not preclude the fact that what He commanded Adam NOT to do, He fully intended for Adam to obey and NOT to do - because He is GOD and He is perfectly good.

The only biblical fact of the matter is that God intervened in the person of Christ in order to undo the evil that was done through the SIN of Adam's disobedience, and in His foreknowledge He purposed to do so because He knew He would have to do so because there would be no other way.

God did NOT (as YOU have falsely claimed) INTEND for Adam to disobey "in order that" (as YOU have falsely claimed) He could "use evil for good"

- which YOU in YOUR blasphemous assessment of the will and ways of God - have now falsely claimed is supported by the fact that in His foreknowledge God appointed Christ for our salvation BEFORE the foundation of the world.

You are a blasphemer who blasphemes God by ascribing motive, desire and intention to Him that He is not even capable of, because He is perfectly good - nor does the Bible imply anything other than what is mentioned in the commandment "You shall NOT .. "

The Bible is not what you talk about. It's your opinions. It is YOU - not scripture - who says that God "desired" (your words) for Adam and Eve to disobey.

Once again you give nothing but opinion! I understand why, because you cannot biblically show how I have not spoken truth. I'm not interested in your opinions! If you cannot use Scripture to support your opinions, why do you try to participate in Bible forums you appear to have little knowledge of!

 

[rwb]

I can try to answer your questions. But I can not study, or understand any specific single point for you.
I can tell you How I study, picking one specific topic…cross referencing every text in context, of who, what, when, where, why, it applies to…reading, note taking, charts making, re-Reading… the knowledge…
Then…importantly…Praying to the Lord God, for its meaning /understanding…
Then…Wait…for His answer.
The answer may been soon, or weeks later, at no particular “time”…
But when the answer of understanding comes, I re-Read my notes on the topic… and am satisfied with the knowledge + understanding ….
Point being, this is a long process, we (spouse/ family) have done for years.
We don’t “go” to Church, whereby an other selects our topic and tells us their opinion.
We engage with (willing) family, friends, strangers….at any time / places…regarding Biblical topics… can quickly discover their interests and depth of their own knowledge / topic interest / parallel understanding and method of how they arrive at such answers…
Guesswork, believing because another they trust said so, or their prayer of asking God.
Even on this forum of strangers… easy to read who says…
They believe this or that… because it “makes logical sense to their mind”, “they give a long list of what this or that dead scholar believed” or “long years of family tradition without question or verification necessary”. Etc.
I believe Jesus’ teaching… and focus there, and trust He is the source of Understanding, thus ask Him.
I never expect … any of Jesus’ teachings about Spiritual things, to firstly “make logical sense to my mind…” it doesn’t.
As I said, I don’t know if, or how others study, or learn, affect how I choose to do.
Disagreement with other humans okay, as my agreement is focused on agreement with knowledge and understanding of Jesus.

Glory to God,
Taken

You seem to sincerely desire to understand the Word of God, and that is a noble desire that I would encourage you to continue with. The reason I ask you specific questions is because you first made an assumption that Lucifer is Satan, and then you looked to the Bible to prove what you assume. That's not how to learn FROM the Bible, it is reading into the Bible. In doing this one can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to say. With the questions, I hoped you would see how assuming Lucifer to be Satan causes contradiction, and confusion into the Word of God. I would hope that you understand that the Bible, God's Word to man cannot contradict itself.

It is not possible for Lucifer to be Satan and when you can answer the questions I've asked, I hope you will know why.

Indeed, All Glory to God alone

 

[rwb]

and FREEWILL Applies to angels and manKIND…

You're making another assumption here! Where does Scripture tell us angels were created with freewill?

In this chapter of Hebrews we see the angels of God are not created with freewill! They are ALL ministering spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This is one proof text for why Satan is NOT, nor has he ever been an angel of God who of his own freewill became the father of lies. He was and is always from the beginning a liar and murderer.

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Genesis 3:13 (KJV) And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

 

[rwb]

Disagree.

“The” morning star(S)…

I didn't say that Christ is the ONLY morning star! There are other morning stars, but only ONE morning star, which is how Lucifer is defined, singular, not plural in this context.

Job 38:7 (KJV) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The morning stars in this verse are ALL the sons of God.

The book of Job is written in 'poetic prose' and is not to be literally understood. This fact is borne out in the following verses from Job. Does the sea have literal doors and a literal womb? No, but the words of Job express truths that Job, being a man cannot fathom, and neither do we possess the knowledge or depths of the power and wisdom of God at the creation of the heavens and earth and all that is in them.

Job 38:8 (KJV) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

The morning stars as sons of God sang and shouted for joy at creation, not literally, but through promise. They are all the full body/church the faithful, and righteous of Christ from both the Old and New Covenant whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 12:3 (KJV) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 21:27 (KJV) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[The Light]

?
Isa. 14:
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,

Lucifer is a translation error.

"Thus, the Hebrew word הֵילֵ֣ל was considered to be a proper noun (a name). But, instead of being transliterated into English as Heilel, it was actually translated into Latin as lucifer, and then that word was written as a proper noun (name) by capitalization of its initial letter, i.e. Lucifer.
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....translator-make-a-mistake-using-the-term-luci
Lucifer is a Latin word, not a Hebrew word. It is formed from the Latin suffix -fer, meaning “bearing” or “bearer”,1 joined to the root luc-/lux- meaning “light”. It means “light-bearer” or “light-bearing”. It should not occur in the King James Version English translation of the Old Testament since the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, not Latin. So, either הֵילֵל should have been translated into English as “light-bearer” (if it is a common noun) or transliterated as Heilel (if it is a proper noun), but certainly not Lucifer."

Lucifer is not Satan.

The chapter of Isaiah 14 is talking about Nimrod, the King of Babylon who is also the Assyrian. He is a man and not an angel.

Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

 

[rwb]

Absolutely NOT, nor have I ever said such a thing.

The “morning stars”… were Lucifer and Jesus.
Lucifer Went Against God…Fell Away.
Jesus Remained in Agreement and WITH God…Thus remains…
The BRIGHT Morning Star.

You're contradicting yourself. You just answered "absolutely not" to my question: "Can you biblically prove Satan called the morning star (Lucifer) is ever identified as being the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star?"

Then in the next sentence you say Lucifer and Jesus are morning stars and Lucifer went against God "fell away"! Are you saying Satan is Lucifer a morning star with Jesus before he became Satan?

 

[rwb]

Ezekiel 28:1-10, the prince of Tyrus is a code name for the revealed man of sin.

Ezekiel 28:12-19, the king of Tyrus is a code name for Satan.

Assumption, the mother of all false doctrine! Prove what you allege from the Word of God, rather than trying to force an assumption upon the Word of God that serves only to contradict and confuse.