Who is Israel?

[dad]

Joshua declares otherwise.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

"
By all indications, a literal reading of the text would lead us to believe and understand that Israel had taken full possession of the land that God had promised in the Abrahamic Covenant. However, there are other texts which tell us otherwise in order to answer our opening questions.

The following references are important to this discussion and need to be understood:

Joshua 13:1: “The Lᴏʀᴅ said to [Joshua], ‘You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land remains to be possessed.’”

v. 13 “But the sons of Israel did not dispossess the Geshurites or the Maacathites.”

15:63; 16:10: “Now as for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the sons of Judah could not drive them out. . . but they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer.”

17:12 “But the sons of Manasseh could not take possession of these cities, because the Canannites persisted in living in that land.”

Throughout these texts, it is also to be noted that on several occasions, it also reads that those Israel could not drive out “live among Israel until this day.”

God’s Promise Never Fails​

Did they really possess ALL the land? The simple answer is: No. But does not Scripture then contradict itself, and did God not really fulfill His promise to Israel?

While they took the land and lived in it, they never fully “dispossessed” the enemies from the land.

1. It is important to point out that the Israelites did indeed take the land God had promised and that God gave them the land (Josh. 11:23; 21:43–45). To take the land and have it given to them is to be differentiated from fully possessing the land. So while they took the land and lived in it, they never fully “dispossessed” the enemies from the land. To the writing of the book of Joshua, the enemies persisted until that time at least.

2. The fact that Israel “possessed and lived in the land” does not negate the fact that they might possess still more of it.

3. At the very time Scripture records Israel’s possession of the land (Josh. 21), their enemies (living among them) posed no threat. They had been subdued by Israel even though they were not completely driven out.

4. It wasn’t until the time of Solomon (not even David) that Israel’s borders came close to the parameters that God described in His Word. Israel’s borders extended to the border of Egypt (1 Kings 4:21) but not the river of Egypt mentioned in Genesis 15:18.



There are other distinctions that must be considered that help us understand the dilemma and controversy of Israel’s possession of the land.



First, there is an additional text relating to the Abrahamic Covenant where God is once again speaking to Abraham. Genesis 17:7–8 reads, “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” “Everlasting” is the emphasis here, and without a doubt, Israel has NOT been in possession of the land in perpetuity. Throughout history, the Israelites have been exiled, taken captive, booted out (the Diaspora), and even to this day, the full extent of the land is NOT theirs. They have never been in full possession of all the land.



So, what gives? What could God possibly have meant in His covenant with Abraham? Amos 9:11–15 gives us insight that helps unravel the controversy and lingering questions:



“In that day [the future Millennial Kingdom]… Behold, days are coming… I will restore the captivity of My people Israel… I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,” says the Lᴏʀᴅ your God.”

One day, at the end of the Tribulation, all of surviving Israel will “look on Me whom they have pierced.”

Israel’s history of rebellion, idolatry, unfaithfulness, and rejection of Jesus Christ as their true Messiah has kept them from fully realizing the Abrahamic Covenant and fully possessing the land. One day, at the end of the Tribulation, all of surviving Israel will “look on Me whom they have pierced” (Zech. 12:10). Israel’s repentance will be complete, and they will inhabit the future kingdom over which Christ will reign as their Messiah. Then and only then will Israel fully possess the land promised to them. God is faithful to His Word—to Israel and to us!

 

[covenantee]

"
By all indications, a literal reading of the text would lead us to believe and understand that Israel had taken full possession of the land that God had promised in the Abrahamic Covenant. However, there are other texts which tell us otherwise in order to answer our opening questions.

The following references are important to this discussion and need to be understood:

Joshua 13:1: “The Lᴏʀᴅ said to [Joshua], ‘You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land remains to be possessed.’”

v. 13 “But the sons of Israel did not dispossess the Geshurites or the Maacathites.”

15:63; 16:10: “Now as for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the sons of Judah could not drive them out. . . but they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer.”

17:12 “But the sons of Manasseh could not take possession of these cities, because the Canannites persisted in living in that land.”

Throughout these texts, it is also to be noted that on several occasions, it also reads that those Israel could not drive out “live among Israel until this day.”

God’s Promise Never Fails​

Did they really possess ALL the land? The simple answer is: No. But does not Scripture then contradict itself, and did God not really fulfill His promise to Israel?






1. It is important to point out that the Israelites did indeed take the land God had promised and that God gave them the land (Josh. 11:23; 21:43–45). To take the land and have it given to them is to be differentiated from fully possessing the land. So while they took the land and lived in it, they never fully “dispossessed” the enemies from the land. To the writing of the book of Joshua, the enemies persisted until that time at least.

2. The fact that Israel “possessed and lived in the land” does not negate the fact that they might possess still more of it.

3. At the very time Scripture records Israel’s possession of the land (Josh. 21), their enemies (living among them) posed no threat. They had been subdued by Israel even though they were not completely driven out.

4. It wasn’t until the time of Solomon (not even David) that Israel’s borders came close to the parameters that God described in His Word. Israel’s borders extended to the border of Egypt (1 Kings 4:21) but not the river of Egypt mentioned in Genesis 15:18.



There are other distinctions that must be considered that help us understand the dilemma and controversy of Israel’s possession of the land.



First, there is an additional text relating to the Abrahamic Covenant where God is once again speaking to Abraham. Genesis 17:7–8 reads, “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” “Everlasting” is the emphasis here, and without a doubt, Israel has NOT been in possession of the land in perpetuity. Throughout history, the Israelites have been exiled, taken captive, booted out (the Diaspora), and even to this day, the full extent of the land is NOT theirs. They have never been in full possession of all the land.



So, what gives? What could God possibly have meant in His covenant with Abraham? Amos 9:11–15 gives us insight that helps unravel the controversy and lingering questions:



“In that day [the future Millennial Kingdom]… Behold, days are coming… I will restore the captivity of My people Israel… I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,” says the Lᴏʀᴅ your God.”






Israel’s history of rebellion, idolatry, unfaithfulness, and rejection of Jesus Christ as their true Messiah has kept them from fully realizing the Abrahamic Covenant and fully possessing the land. One day, at the end of the Tribulation, all of surviving Israel will “look on Me whom they have pierced” (Zech. 12:10). Israel’s repentance will be complete, and they will inhabit the future kingdom over which Christ will reign as their Messiah. Then and only then will Israel fully possess the land promised to them. God is faithful to His Word—to Israel and to us!

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have written your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things. Unbelieving Israel is not an heir. Galatians 4:30-31.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that those who are in Christ are heirs and joint heirs with Him.

But it is clear, plain, and undeniable:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ under His New Covenant/Testament.

 

[dad]

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have written your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Name a verse where it says God is a liar? Where it says that promises made to Abraham are void? No. What is void is the law as far as saving us goes.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Yes we can be saved by believing in Jesus. Nothing there about God not keeping His word to others also

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Yes Jesus died for us. Nothing there about Him being a liar and ripping up promises to Abraham, sorry. Gong!

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

That does not mean lying and taking away promises. Ir refers to the law and old covenant.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

Still not a syllable about promises being now worthless. Sorry. Try to post relevant verses

We see other promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Zero to do with saved Jews not getting the promised lands.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Great and those promises will be kept. For believing Jews as far as lands go

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Right, including those made about the promised land, restoration etc

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

It is Christ that will give them the land and restore those saved Jews! So of course it will be fulfilled in Him. All the promises of God are yea and amen to the glory of God . NO Exceptions!

God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things. Unbelieving Israel is not an heir. Galatians 4:30-31.

Believing Israel is the heir of some promises though!

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Yes better than blood of goats etc etc. In no way does this mean God will renege on promises such as restoring saved Israel.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Already dealt with that in a previous post. The saved Jews ALSO get the promised land on earth!

Additional promissory clauses in:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Yes we are heirs thanks to Jesus. Nothing to do with saved Jews in the end not also receiving things He promised them.

...declare that those who are in Christ are heirs and joint heirs with Him.

But it is clear, plain, and undeniable:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

There is a restoring to the promised land for saved Jews promised and nothing can change that.

Who is not in Christ under His New Covenant/Testament.

It will be the Jews under Christ that He returns to the land. What, you thought He was kidding?

 

[Truth7t7]

If there is a Tribulation there has to be something before. (pre) For example we are now pre Tribulation. Since the Great Tribulation is precisely 3 1/2 years then anything before that time has to be 'pre' also (such as the first part of the seven years)

No such thing as a 7 year tribulation, it will be 3.5 years and will begin when (the man of sin/the beast) is revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God on earth

Not world/universe destroying fire obviously when He first returns. You see He judges nations round about, and slays wicked, and rewards people and rules etc etc. You are conflating the end of the thousand years with the second coming.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. That was not the context at all, that everyone is promised the lands in the mid east. Sorry. What promise are we talking about? Jesus's promise I think - 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
Here are a few translations of the passage to get a balanced perspective-

6 This is God's plan. Those who are not Jews will also share in the blessings of God. They also are a part of the body of Jesus Christ. They also will receive the things God has promised in Jesus Christ through the good news.

And this is the secret: that the Gentiles will have their full share with the Jews in all the riches inherited by God’s sons; both are invited to belong to his Church, and all of God’s promises of mighty blessings through Christ apply to them both when they accept the Good News about Christ and what he has done for them.

The gentiles are heirs-in-common, members-in-common of the body, and common participants in what was promised[a] by the Messiah[b] Jesus through the gospel.

The promises of certain land from the Euphrates to the sea are NOT gospel promises! You don't get to lump those old promises of land to Jews in with the promises of Jesus and the gospel.

Did you not read Hebrews 11:8-16 as I asked you to do? The land promises have been extended beyond the certain land and the promises are extended to Gentiles as well. You are thinking carnally when you should be thinking spiritually. God has much better things in store for His people than a mere temporal piece of land. And He has the same things planned for all of His people, whether Jew or Gentile. I do not accept your dispensationalist attempts to divide God's people. We are all one.

He also teaches we get different rewards and that He keeps His word. God keeping old promises does not make Him a respecter of persons but a God who keeps promises to all. You were wrong and out of context and should admit it

There is nothing for me to admit because I'm not wrong. Don't be foolish. You need to admit that you are trying to interpret scripture with your own fallible human wisdom without allowing the Holy Spirit to show you what it means.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Never in history have Jewish people had the lands God promised (only some of the land)

God promised them certain lands, do you think He is slack concerning His promises? Yes people long ago (before we knew about a New Jerusalem God would build for believers one day in the future) desired a heavenly world rather than the death and war and etc that exists here. Part of the promises of God is that He would be their God again and restore them to the land etc. When Jesus returns to earth, it will be a heavenly city in Jerusalem where we rule the earth from! Not only that, but after the thousand years He makes a brand new universe and world where we all live together forever. So having God fulfill promises of bringing them back TO THAT LAND and protecting them, and slaying their enemies etc etc etc does not take away from them also having a heavenly city one day! His 'something better' INCLUDES the promised land for them.

You are very confused. Scripture repeatedly teaches that all of God's people have been brought together by the blood of Christ as "one body" and "one new man" and "one flock" (or "one fold"). You are trying to divide God's people despite Jesus bringing all of God's people together as one and it's shameful. Dispensationalism is a doctrinal system of demons.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Joshua declares otherwise.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Isn't it interesting how the hyper-literal dispensationalists suddenly aren't so hyper-literal anymore when it comes to passages like this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"
By all indications, a literal reading of the text would lead us to believe and understand that Israel had taken full possession of the land that God had promised in the Abrahamic Covenant. However, there are other texts which tell us otherwise in order to answer our opening questions.

The following references are important to this discussion and need to be understood:

Joshua 13:1: “The Lᴏʀᴅ said to [Joshua], ‘You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land remains to be possessed.’”

v. 13 “But the sons of Israel did not dispossess the Geshurites or the Maacathites.”

15:63; 16:10: “Now as for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the sons of Judah could not drive them out. . . but they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer.”

17:12 “But the sons of Manasseh could not take possession of these cities, because the Canannites persisted in living in that land.”

Throughout these texts, it is also to be noted that on several occasions, it also reads that those Israel could not drive out “live among Israel until this day.”

All of those come BEFORE Joshua 21. Hello? You can't use those to try to deny what Joshua 21:43-45 indicates.

How convenient for you to normally take scripture very literally, but suddenly you aren't doing that anymore when it comes to Joshua 21:43-45.

God’s Promise Never Fails​

Did they really possess ALL the land? The simple answer is: No. But does not Scripture then contradict itself, and did God not really fulfill His promise to Israel?

So, you're making Joshua out to be a liar then? What don't you understand about what he said?

Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

You are trying to change the text to fit your false doctrine. That is unacceptable.

1. It is important to point out that the Israelites did indeed take the land God had promised and that God gave them the land (Josh. 11:23; 21:43–45). To take the land and have it given to them is to be differentiated from fully possessing the land.

LOL. Nonsense! Stop twisting the word of God to fit your view. It seems that it's more important to you to make scripture say what you want it to say than to accept what it says. Sad.

 

[dad]

No such thing as a 7 year tribulation, it will be 3.5 years and will begin when (the man of sin/the beast) is revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God on earth

Most people call the 3/12 years the Great Tribulation.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

Yes. There sure will

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

False. That is after the 1000 years. Clearly. If you conflate the end of the thousand years with the beginning, this is not a thread to correct or promote your error

 

[dad]

Did you not read Hebrews 11:8-16 as I asked you to do? The land promises have been extended beyond the certain land and the promises are extended to Gentiles as well. You are thinking carnally when you should be thinking spiritually. God has much better things in store for His people than a mere temporal piece of land. And He has the same things planned for all of His people, whether Jew or Gentile. I do not accept your dispensationalist attempts to divide God's people. We are all one.

Abraham looking forward to a heavenly city does not mean that there is not also a promised land. Specific promises are made to Jews for restoration from all over to that promised land. The heavenly city does not come down to earth from heaven till the end of the 1000 years. Before that time, Israel will enjoy all the promised lands at last. That does not divide God's people at all. We will be happy for them. We also will spend time in that earthly Jerusalem and they will spend time in heavenly Jerusalem. Then, we all live together at the end of the 1000 years I think. If you want to use the word dispensationalist for God being true and keeping His promises, fine.

 

[dad]

You are very confused. Scripture repeatedly teaches that all of God's people have been brought together by the blood of Christ as "one body" and "one new man" and "one flock" (or "one fold"). You are trying to divide God's people despite Jesus bringing all of God's people together as one and it's shameful. Dispensationalism is a doctrinal system of demons.

The saved are one in Jesus. Even the remnant of Jews prophesied to be saved in the end will be one with us in Jesus. That does not mean God will not fulfil His word to them though of course

 

[dad]

All of those come BEFORE Joshua 21. Hello? You can't use those to try to deny what Joshua 21:43-45 indicates.

How convenient for you to normally take scripture very literally, but suddenly you aren't doing that anymore when it comes to Joshua 21:43-45.


So, you're making Joshua out to be a liar then? What don't you understand about what he said?

Actually that was a good verse. I didn't realize that it was considered at one time that they inhabited it all. No problem. If they occupied all this territory

"According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east)." What is the land that God promised to Israel? | GotQuestions.org

Whether it was considered theirs because someone's foot walked over it or whatever reason, fine. I won't question that.

Thanks for the verse. My point was (same link) "Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised; the rest of their inheritance likely awaits the return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ." They will get every inch of all that land. That is His promise to believing Israel for the end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Abraham looking forward to a heavenly city does not mean that there is not also a promised land.

He dwelt in the promised land with his son Isaac and Isaac's son Jacob and considered it "a foreign country". Why do you put so much significance on something that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob themselves did not?

Specific promises are made to Jews for restoration from all over to that promised land. The heavenly city does not come down to earth from heaven till the end of the 1000 years. Before that time, Israel will enjoy all the promised lands at last. That does not divide God's people at all. We will be happy for them.

LOL. You have no idea of what you're saying. Does not divide God's people at all? Get serious! You have God doing things for some of His people that He won't do for others. Ridiculous! We are all one! What He does for one of us He will do for all. We will all inherit eternal life with immortal bodies in His eternal kingdom in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

We also will spend time in that earthly Jerusalem and they will spend time in heavenly Jerusalem.

Nonsense! We are all one and will all be together for eternity.

Then, we all live together at the end of the 1000 years I think. If you want to use the word dispensationalist for God being true and keeping His promises, fine.

No, dispensationalism is the false doctrinal system that you have been deceived by.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually that was a good verse. I didn't realize that it was considered at one time that they inhabited it all. No problem. If they occupied all this territory

"According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east)." What is the land that God promised to Israel? | GotQuestions.org

Whether it was considered theirs because someone's foot walked over it or whatever reason, fine. I won't question that.

Thanks for the verse. My point was (same link) "Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised; the rest of their inheritance likely awaits the return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ." They will get every inch of all that land. That is His promise to believing Israel for the end.

God promises the entire new earth for all of His people for eternity. Your standards are way too low.

 

[dad]

He dwelt in the promised land with his son Isaac and Isaac's son Jacob and considered it "a foreign country". Why do you put so much significance on something that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob themselves did not?

Because God promises to bring them back there

LOL. You have no idea of what you're saying. Does not divide God's people at all? Get serious! You have God doing things for some of His people that He won't do for others.

You do realize rewards are different? Some get less some get more etc. Not all rewards for believers are the same. In the case of saved Israel in the end, part of their reward is to be protected and returned to the land. No way to argue with that.

Ridiculous! We are all one! What He does for one of us He will do for all. We will all inherit eternal life with immortal bodies in His eternal kingdom in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

See above. In fact there is a seven year period set aside that is for dealing with Israel in large part. The seventieth week of Daniel. Do you think God was racist or a respecter of persons because He will save them also and deal with them and eventually restore them as He stated?

 

[dad]

God promises the entire new earth for all of His people for eternity. Your standards are way too low.

The new earth is not here till, as the bible says clearly after the thousand years. Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, --

Rev 21:21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because God promises to bring them back there

He already did, as you've been shown. You continue to deny the truth you have been shown.

You do realize rewards are different? Some get less some get more etc. Not all rewards for believers are the same. In the case of saved Israel in the end, part of their reward is to be protected and returned to the land. No way to argue with that.

Different rewards is one thing, but you have believers dwelling in entirely different locations. Nonsense. We will all be together in the same place which will be the new heavens and new earth.

See above. In fact there is a seven year period set aside that is for dealing with Israel in large part. The seventieth week of Daniel.

You continue to be deceived by dispensationalism. The 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled. Please read this...

First, let's look at Daniel 9:24.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Here is my understanding of the fulfillment of each of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. I will list the scriptures that I believe refer to the fulfillment of each of them.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Hebrews 9:15 That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put an End to Sin

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven


4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.


6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week. What Daniel 9:27 is about is that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week which caused the old covenant animals sacrifices and offerings to become obsolete and that established the new covenant. The remaining confirmation of the new covenant in the 70th week was accomplished by the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went out to the Gentiles. The consummation mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is related to the Jews having rejected Christ and having Him crucified and that consummation occurred in 70 AD when the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were destroyed, as prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

Do you think God was racist or a respecter of persons because He will save them also and deal with them and eventually restore them as He stated?

Yes, I would think He was a respecter of persons if He saved everyone in Israel and not any other nation. That's exactly what being a respecter of persons means.

 

[dad]

He already did, as you've been shown. You continue to deny the truth you have been shown.

False. When God brings them back they will be His people and believe etc etc

Different rewards is one thing, but you have believers dwelling in entirely different locations. Nonsense. We will all be together in the same place which will be the new heavens and new earth.

Says you. God promises otherwise.

You continue to be deceived by dispensationalism. The 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled. Please read this...

First, let's look at Daniel 9:24.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Here is my understanding of the fulfillment of each of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. I will list the scriptures that I believe refer to the fulfillment of each of them.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Hebrews 9:15 That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put an End to Sin

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven


4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.


6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week. What Daniel 9:27 is about is that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week which caused the old covenant animals sacrifices and offerings to become obsolete and that established the new covenant. The remaining confirmation of the new covenant in the 70th week was accomplished by the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went out to the Gentiles. The consummation mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is related to the Jews having rejected Christ and having Him crucified and that consummation occurred in 70 AD when the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were destroyed, as prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

Jesus finishes things when He returns actually. Also the things concerning Israel are not finished. Etc.

Yes, I would think He was a respecter of persons if He saved everyone in Israel and not any other nation. That's exactly what being a respecter of persons means.

He saves everyone everywhere that get saved. After all God puts them through, the little remnant left alive of Israel all get saved. Nothing to cry about or be jealous etc

 

[Truth7t7]

Do Gentile Christians have the same God as the Jews?

"God Of His Fathers, Old Testament Examples, your living in deniL of biblical truth

 

[Zao is life]

We are the seed of Abraham as well. But the promises of the promised land are FOR those believers who are Jewish. Not you or I. We have a plethora of other promises.

They broke the covenant by not keeping their promise - their part of the bargain that it was dependant upon.

The covenant God made with them after He brought them out of Egypt:

"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

"And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste." (Leviticus 26:13-17 & 31-33).

"And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." (Exodus 24:7-8).

Their right to the land was conditional - but they always broke the covenant:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." (Isaiah 24:5).

The NEW covenant God made with them after He brought them out of Egypt:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" (Jeremiah 31:31-32).

Compare:

"And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." (Exodus 24:7-8).

and

"For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

They will never keep their side of the bargain, so no, they do not have the right to dwell in the land.

This is what God says to both Israel and the Jews (Judah) (I doubt you know the difference between Israel and Judah)

New Covenant promises:

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded." (Ezekiel 36:27-33).

It's talking about what Christ brought about and will bring about following His return - and it's not only talking to the Jews or about the Jews only - whom so many Christians are so obssesed with and about, that they fail to understand.​