The first coming, for the Cross; the second coming, for the Return in the air; and the third coming, for the Return on the ground.
IS THERE ONE COMING OF THE LORD JESUS OR TWO?
- Thread starter Doug
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Dear Doug, Your entire argument stands on Paul’s letters, not on Jesus. That is the first and most serious problem. Jesus Himself is the One who teaches about His coming, and He gives only one future coming. If your doctrine needs Paul to create a second coming, it collapses immediately.
Jesus said clearly in Matthew 24:27 that His coming will be like lightning flashing from east to west. One coming, global, open to all. He never teaches a secret or separate coming.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:30 that “all the tribes of the earth” will see Him coming. He does not describe two stages, two phases, or two different comings. He speaks of one return.
Jesus also said in Matthew 24:31 that when He comes, He will send His angels to gather His people. This gathering is the resurrection and the taking up of His servants. It happens at the same moment that He appears in glory. Jesus gives no second, hidden gathering before this.
Jesus repeated the same thing in Matthew 13:39 to 43. The harvest happens at “the end of the age.” The angels gather the righteous and remove the wicked at the same time. There is no earlier event.
Jesus said in John 6 four times that He will raise His people “at the last day.” Not before the last day. Not seven years earlier. The resurrection happens at the day of His return.
All of this proves that the only teacher who can define the events of His coming, Christ, already told us the truth plainly. One coming, one return, one resurrection, one gathering.
Now look at your comparison.
You used Paul’s letters to describe a so-called “rapture coming.” But Paul’s words must never be placed above Jesus. If you try to build a doctrine on Paul that Jesus never taught, you will always end up with contradictions.
Jesus already taught the resurrection and the gathering of His people, and it happens when He returns in glory, after the great trouble of the world.
Now look at Zechariah. Zechariah 14:4 does not describe a second or earlier coming. It describes the moment when the Messiah arrives as King. This matches Matthew 24:30, where Jesus comes with power and great glory.
You then compared this with Paul’s words in 1 Thessalonians, trying to make “in the air” mean a separate coming. But in Matthew 24:31, Jesus already said that He gathers His people “in the sky” through His angels at His coming. Zechariah shows where He completes His arrival on earth. These are not two different comings. This is one coming seen from two angles: the gathering in the sky and the arrival on earth.
Nowhere does Jesus teach a return, then another return. Nowhere do the prophets teach a return, then another return. Only when people put Paul above Jesus does this confusion begin.
To be very clear: Jesus gives one coming, one trumpet, one resurrection, one gathering, one appearing in glory, one arrival to judge.
Your argument depends on taking Paul’s passages out of order, separating them from Jesus’ teaching, and building a structure Jesus never gave. When Scripture is read in the right order, with Jesus first, the one coming of the Lord becomes simple to see.
There is one return of the Son of Man. This is the teaching of Jesus, and His word is final.
This is truly my final reply as I do not have anymore time for you since you persist following false doctrines. Know I have done all I can to bring you to the truth in Christ's words. Please continue to study the words of Jesus and place them in your heart, is all I wish for you Doug, that you Follow Jesus's teachings carefully and above all else.
May the Lord keep you and show you the path that leads to Eternal Life.
The great tribulation
Scripture says it is after.......
[Mat 24:29 KJV] "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
[Mat 24:30 KJV] "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
It depends on how you define "coming." He comes to the earth at the first coming. He comes in the air for the resurrection (coming ??) of the Church saints. Then his second coming is on the earth again. Depending on your definition of "coming" there are three times Christ comes to the earth and its atmosphere.
One in the air is for the rapture of church saints dead and alive.
What was Christ's coming on the ground for?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
And another one in rev14:14.
( which is neither the pretrib rapture or the second coming)
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Both sides believe that and agree he comes after.
But no rapture there.
Keep reading in mat 24.
Jesus uses lot and noah as pretrib comings.
Not after the flood.
No rapture after the flood
None after sodom burns..
None postrib.
Unless you think Jesus is wrong.
i agree, but Revelation ch. 19 does not mention about 'Mount of Olive', so it's wise not to 'add to' or 'remove from' the scripture.
This is a different occasion before He's coming to judge the dead and the living on the Final Judgement.
But before that, as after the thousand years is over, satan is loosed again to deceive nations, have them and their armies gather together in the plain of Megiddo.
Where the 'Final Judgement' of the dead and living shall be 'held' separating the sheep and goats, in Heaven or on earth?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
There are 2 in mat 24.
Undeniable unless you are a postrib covering the bible with a postrib workbook.
A third in Rev 14.
The one in Rev 14;14 is neither the church gathering or the second coming on white horses.
In Revelation ch.19 to 20, there's no mention of Mount Olives and Jesus stands on it?
Jesus just came down to earth and His angels followed Him, to wage war against anti-Christ and the false prophet.
And moreover this is not the Armageddon, i believe it's best you stick alone to Paul's Gospel, thank you
Jesus talks about the resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 but doesnt mention the "rapture" God doesnt lay everything out you have to compare scriptures throughout the Bible
The 'first resurrection' Biblically, is relatively in conjunction with the word 'rapture' that was added by the church fathers.
The 'first resurrection' is that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and those who are living, together will be 'taken up' to the sky, to meet the Lord in the clouds, as the 'rapture'
But yours is entirely on your own copy and paste version just to look by 'sight' prophetic, and not even by faith related.
Firstly, in Revelation ch. 19, it does not mention that the Lord's return with His angels to war against anti-Christ etc., even that He 'steps' on any 'mount' or 'place'.
Secondly, that coming of His doesn't even relate to the 'Armageddon' the final battle, which you've copy and paste as it 'is'.
Even you've copy and paste what you've gained from our witnessing against yours so far, just to furthermore spice up your ongoing 'twisted' version.
Remember that Jesus clearly discipled us, and while we minister and witness the same word of GOD, we'll know them by their fruit.
Even to distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and the 'spirit of error' among us, as Apostle Paul puts it into perspective 'false brethren' among.
Here is the war,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,[Revelation 16:16 KJV] "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.".............here it is in Rev 19.................,[Revelation 19:14 KJV] "And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
[Revelation 19:17 KJV] "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;"
[Revelation 19:19 KJV] "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."
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