The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[ewq1938]

There is that pesky word "until" in Rom. 11:25 which makes a big change in the narrative. One has to look at the whole of prophecy to see where a particular prophecy might have it's place.

There is nothing about the church ending in those verses, or anywhere in the bible. "until" doesn't change that.

 

[WPM]

How do you see that? The term "firstfruits" has different meanings depending on the context. God sets them aside back in Rev. 7. The 144,000 are the first of Israel to be saved to enter the millennial era in their humanity. In this case, it's not talking about a resurrection unless you want to consider it a resurrection of the spirit as spoken of in Ez. 37.

It doesn't say that. A future millennium is not mentioned there, neither is it mentioned anywhere between Ezekiel 37 and 48. You are forcing that to fit what you have been taught.

You need to let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[WPM]

That is true for today but Jesus tells a different story about tomorrow. The day when Matt. 23:39 will be fulfilled by the nation of Israel.

That text is not supporting your thesis. You're forcing your theology into that text as well. Jesus is simply referring to judgment day, where every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Matthew 23:39 is saying nothing different.

 

[WPM]

Both for different agendas but they will be in Christ, too.

Not so. At the core of Dispensationalist teaching is the belief that God has got two distinct peoples on planet earth. They believe He has an earthly people and a heavenly people. They think His earthly people are ethnic Israel and His heavenly people are the New Testament Church. This apartheid that they advocate is both unbiblical and regrettable. It rebuilds a wall between Jews and Gentiles, which Jesus Christ demolished through the cross-work. It also contradicts many New Testament passages that actually teach the opposite.

How does Scripture divide mankind up? How many different spiritual camps are there?

All mankind from the beginning is either found to be in one of two camps – saved or lost. There is no other company. There has never been any other salvation apart from that found “in Christ.” The elect “in Christ" in the Old Testament looked forward to Messiah by faith, the elect “in Christ" in the New Testament look back to Messiah by faith. Those that reject Him are found "in Adam."

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there are only two types of people on planet earth – saved and lost. There are not three types of people in this world – saved, lost and then Israel, as Dispensationalists argue. For that to be true. There will have to be three federal heads. But Scripture makes it clear that there are only two – those “in Adam” and those “in Christ.” Nowhere does it say that there are three, namely, all those “in Adam,” all those “in Moses” and then all those “in Christ” as dispensationalists would have us believe.

Scripture rather breaks all mankind down into one of two groups – those that are saved and those lost, those that are “in Adam” and then those that are “in Christ.” Whilst there may be many ethnic subgroups within these two overall groups, in God’s eyes, there are only two groups.

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ.

There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid. It runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

Colossians 3:11 teaches: “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.”

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a Dispy myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

 

[WPM]

There is that pesky word "until" in Rom. 11:25 which makes a big change in the narrative. One has to look at the whole of prophecy to see where a particular prophecy might have it's place.

The King James Version renders Romans 11:25: “blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

It means that a remnant of Israel is saved and the rest are blinded while the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. When is the fulness of the Gentiles come in? When Christ returns. Manifestly, they are not all blinded; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn't restricted to an end-time mass repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord's coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). This reading makes no such suggestion along that line. It is simply speaking of that portion or part of Israel that is not blinded but has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus. They will continue to come to Christ “while” the Gentiles also come through.

All Israel shall be saved once all the saved Gentiles and once all the saved Jews have come through, having entered into the kingdom of God through being born from above.

Dispensationalists interpret Romans 11:25 as if the engrafting of Israelis must occur after the in-coming of the Gentiles. However, the original doesn't say that. It declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until [Gr. achris hou or while wherein] the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

The Greek word achris literally means up to, as far as, until, or while. Palmer Robertson explains: “The phrase rendered ‘until’ (achris hou) is essentially terminative. More particularly, it indicates the terminus ad quem [ending point] … The phrase brings matters ‘up to’ a certain point or ‘until’ a certain goal is reached. It does not itself determine the state of affairs after the termination. The subsequent circumstances can be learned only from the context” (The Israel of God: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow).

This text is telling us that not all Israelis are going to be saved. A notable portion of natural ethnic Israel will remain blind while the Gentiles come in, right up until Christ comes. That does not mean that God will not continue to move and save amongst the Jewish people. Romans 9-11 makes clear that there are 2 types of Israeli – the blinded and the elect remnant. That will remain up until Jesus comes. The same applies in every nation.

The same sense is found in Luke 21:24 (a passage that Dispensationalists present as a proof-text for their beliefs), which says, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until [Gr. achris hou or while wherein] the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Is there a time coming when Jesus will stop reaching out to the Gentiles as He is today? Only when He comes to rescue us and destroy the wicked and usher in eternity.

This text is simply telling us that ancient Jerusalem has lost her favored place of preeminence as the center-point of worship to the Almighty globally as it once was in the golden years of the Old Testament. Their theocracy was been removed from them. It has been given to the New Testament Church. That will remain so throughout this new covenant period as the nations are brought to Christ. What is more, Jerusalem will never again be free of Gentiles influence. There is no more damning a testimony of that than the prominent and provocative standing of Islam’s Al-Aqsa Mosque that sits on the former site of the Jewish temple.

 

[WPM]

That won't change but what is so hard about believing there will come a time when the nation of Israel will consist of christians? It's been God's plan from the beginning. The time of gentiles being grafted in has an end date.

You are twisting Scripture. Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of their ethnic race. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers – on equal terms. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identity of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

 

[covenantee]

The first triumphal entry was a type for the future one to come. It wasn't that triumphant if the same people that welcomed Him in thru the eastern gate, turned a around and had him crucified just a few days later. The historical orthodox church was flat out wrong because Dan. 9:24-27 is "not" a messianic prophecy and vs. 24 wasn't for Messiah to accomplish, it is for Israel and Jerusalem to accomplish just as the scriptures read. Historical peoples really had little understanding of future prophecy because they were not given to them to understand. They guesstimated on possibilities but that's the best that can be said. God will fulfill the 70 week in His timing, not ours. No gap = no church. Sorry, but you err about the judgment of Matt. 25.

The inerrant Holy Spirit who inspired Daniel 9:24 guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what He was inspiring.
Inerrant Daniel who wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what he was writing.
Inerrant Messiah who fulfilled what Daniel had written guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what He was fulfilling.

One errant source attempting to discredit three inerrant sources.

Not a chance.


Your errant claim: "The sheep and goat judgment will only consist of those alive who survived the 70th week after Armageddon."

Jesus' inerrant declaration:

Matthew 25
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

 

[WPM]

The inerrant Holy Spirit who inspired Daniel 9:24 guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what He was inspiring.
Inerrant Daniel who wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what he was writing.
Inerrant Messiah who fulfilled what Daniel had written guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what He was fulfilling.

One errant source attempting to discredit three inerrant sources.

Not a chance.


Your errant claim: "The sheep and goat judgment will only consist of those alive who survived the 70th week after Armageddon."

Jesus' inerrant declaration:

Matthew 25
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Amen!

He butchers every text he presents and forces his theology into the inspired text after text. That is because he is presenting an unbiblical view.

 

[covenantee]

Amen!

He butchers every text he presents and forces his theology into the inspired text after text. That is because he is presenting an unbiblical view.

Yeah, I'm unceasingly amazed at how blatant it is.

Truly is, as you've so accurately labeled, dispensatanism.

 

[Trekson]

You are twisting Scripture. Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of their ethnic race. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers – on equal terms. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identity of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

You made several comments but I'll touch on a few of the points. Many of those that don't understand true dispensationalism seem to errantly believe that the NT erases all the OT prophecies and that's just not true. To get the true prophetic narrative one has to study both because many of the NT prophecies are built upon unfulfilled OT prophecies. They don't just point to Christ, they point beyond. There are a lot more prophecies about the millennial era in the OT than there is the NT. The NT era isn't the end of the world. Looking at your John 10:16 quote, that is the ultimate goal, but we aren't living in the millennial era yet. Yes, presently there is no Jew nor Greek or gentile and jew, we are all one in Christ, but it doesn't end the way you are imagining because you aren't seeing the whole picture. You aren't seeing the time when the "all" of Israel will no longer be religiously Jews, they will all be "christians" entering the millennial era, even though at this time, the messianic Jews don't like that term and for good cause. They too will be part of the "one new man" but in a different way, the way of Mark 10:8 "and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh." Most view Eph. 5:31 the wrong way, believing it is talking about an unprophesied marriage between Christ and the church but one has to understand it in the context of the previous verse. Eph. 5:30 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." The church has an end date, in a way, but Israel doesn't. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel. Israel will be the "church on earth" during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven. When those of the gentile nations become believers, they will be grafted into the the tree as well, but the difference is there will be no unbelieving Israeli's that would have been cut off from the tree, it just continues to grow.

 

[Trekson]

The inerrant Holy Spirit who inspired Daniel 9:24 guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what He was inspiring.
Inerrant Daniel who wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what he was writing.
Inerrant Messiah who fulfilled what Daniel had written guesstimated nothing. He knew exactly what He was fulfilling.

One errant source attempting to discredit three inerrant sources.

Not a chance.


Your errant claim: "The sheep and goat judgment will only consist of those alive who survived the 70th week after Armageddon."

Jesus' inerrant declaration:

Matthew 25
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

I agree with what everything you said, "They" knew what they were writing about but sometimes folks have trouble discerning or understanding what was actually be said. Christ laid the foundation upon which Israel will fulfill the goals given them but he wasn't fulfilling them because they weren't his to fulfill. Who was the passage addressed to? One would think that would answer the question. The problem arises because folks can't see "how" Israel will fulfill them. They haven't looked deep enough yet.

 

[WPM]

You made several comments but I'll touch on a few of the points. Many of those that don't understand true dispensationalism seem to errantly believe that the NT erases all the OT prophecies and that's just not true. To get the true prophetic narrative one has to study both because many of the NT prophecies are built upon unfulfilled OT prophecies. They don't just point to Christ, they point beyond. There are a lot more prophecies about the millennial era in the OT than there is the NT. The NT era isn't the end of the world. Looking at your John 10:16 quote, that is the ultimate goal, but we aren't living in the millennial era yet. Yes, presently there is no Jew nor Greek or gentile and jew, we are all one in Christ, but it doesn't end the way you are imagining because you aren't seeing the whole picture. You aren't seeing the time when the "all" of Israel will no longer be religiously Jews, they will all be "christians" entering the millennial era, even though at this time, the messianic Jews don't like that term and for good cause. They too will be part of the "one new man" but in a different way, the way of Mark 10:8 "and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh." Most view Eph. 5:31 the wrong way, believing it is talking about an unprophesied marriage between Christ and the church but one has to understand it in the context of the previous verse. Eph. 5:30 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." The church has an end date, in a way, but Israel doesn't. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel. Israel will be the "church on earth" during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven. When those of the gentile nations become believers, they will be grafted into the the tree as well, but the difference is there will be no unbelieving Israeli's that would have been cut off from the tree, it just continues to grow.

The first principle of evidence is: “he who alleges, must prove.”

You think if you make a statement like "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven" then that makes it a fact. It is not. You have proved nothing apart from you are repeating what you have been taught. Scripture does not teach this. This is totally extra-biblical.

Many of us are former Premils. We recognized that it was a non-corroborative belief that has been foisted upon Scripture.

 

[WPM]

I agree with what everything you said, "They" knew what they were writing about but sometimes folks have trouble discerning or understanding what was actually be said. Christ laid the foundation upon which Israel will fulfill the goals given them but he wasn't fulfilling them because they weren't his to fulfill. Who was the passage addressed to? One would think that would answer the question. The problem arises because folks can't see "how" Israel will fulfill them. They haven't looked deep enough yet.

BREAKING NEWS: the old covenant is abolished - in full. It has been completely replaced by a better covenant. It will never again raise its head.

It is time to move into the NT. The old covenant is gone forever. It is not the Jewish nation that matters. It is all about sinners in all nations under the new covenant. There is neither Jew nor Gentile today. There is no favoritism when it comes to color and races today. The old covenant is gone forever.

Israel is no different to any other nation today. Her previous favored place was done away with 2000 years ago, after her rejection of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant - that is focused on all nations equally. Look at Israel's history and your will quickly see that. They are under judgment.

Israel overwhelmingly rejected Christ, His message and consequently salvation. They failed to see that He was man’s only hope and His way of knowing forgiveness, hope and intimacy with God. John 1:11 records, “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” In fact, not only did they reject Him, they cruelly nailed Him to a tree.

Christ was here speaking about the enjoining of the Jews and Gentiles together into one spiritual people of God.

In His earthly ministry, and knowing what was coming, Christ asked the religious Jewish leaders, “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21 42-44).

The kingdom has been taken from Israel as a nation and given to another nation. Who is that nation? It is the largely Gentile New Testament Church comprised of all believers (both Jew and Gentile).

 

[WPM]

You made several comments but I'll touch on a few of the points. Many of those that don't understand true dispensationalism seem to errantly believe that the NT erases all the OT prophecies and that's just not true. To get the true prophetic narrative one has to study both because many of the NT prophecies are built upon unfulfilled OT prophecies. They don't just point to Christ, they point beyond. There are a lot more prophecies about the millennial era in the OT than there is the NT. The NT era isn't the end of the world. Looking at your John 10:16 quote, that is the ultimate goal, but we aren't living in the millennial era yet. Yes, presently there is no Jew nor Greek or gentile and jew, we are all one in Christ, but it doesn't end the way you are imagining because you aren't seeing the whole picture. You aren't seeing the time when the "all" of Israel will no longer be religiously Jews, they will all be "christians" entering the millennial era, even though at this time, the messianic Jews don't like that term and for good cause. They too will be part of the "one new man" but in a different way, the way of Mark 10:8 "and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh." Most view Eph. 5:31 the wrong way, believing it is talking about an unprophesied marriage between Christ and the church but one has to understand it in the context of the previous verse. Eph. 5:30 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." The church has an end date, in a way, but Israel doesn't. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel. Israel will be the "church on earth" during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven. When those of the gentile nations become believers, they will be grafted into the the tree as well, but the difference is there will be no unbelieving Israeli's that would have been cut off from the tree, it just continues to grow.

Israel is not the central focus of Scripture, Jesus is. To think otherwise is gross ignorance and underlying idolatry (elevating someone or something over God). Think about this: we are talking about the central theme of the inspired pages. Anyway, the followers of Jesus are the apple of God’s eye from the beginning, not a political entity, a Christ-rejecting nation, or favored race of humans.

A core tenet of Dispensationalism is the absolute, and ongoing, distinction between Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists suggest that these two entities describe two different peoples of God, under two separate covenants, who operate on two distinct tracks, function by two divergent time-clocks and who end up in two diverse destinations. They essentially argue that Israel and the Church have parallel but separate roles throughout time, and even eternity. They suggest that the Jews and the Christians are both currently peoples of God, only their promises differ. Believing this, they promote a ‘Segregation Theology’! That is what you do in your imaginary future millennium.

It was only after that Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the apostle was converted to Christianity that he became “a chosen vessel” of the Lord. Before that he was a child of the devil who was destroying the Church of Jesus Christ. He was a wicked man full of religion and hate. That is the story of history.

 

[Trekson]

The first principle of evidence is: “he who alleges, must prove.”

You think if you make a statement like "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven" then that makes it a fact. It is not. You have proved nothing apart from you are repeating what you have been taught. Scripture does not teach this. This is totally extra-biblical.

Many of us are former Premils. We recognized that it was a non-corroborative belief that has been foisted upon Scripture.

If that is the case then it is the errant alternative that is presupposed. Anti-premill is anti-biblical. That's a fact.

Israel is not the central focus of Scripture, Jesus is. To think otherwise is gross ignorance and underlying idolatry (elevating someone or something over God). Think about this: we are talking about the central theme of the inspired pages. Anyway, the followers of Jesus are the apple of God’s eye from the beginning, not a political entity, a Christ-rejecting nation, or favored race of humans.

A core tenet of Dispensationalism is the absolute, and ongoing, distinction between Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists suggest that these two entities describe two different peoples of God, under two separate covenants, who operate on two distinct tracks, function by two divergent time-clocks and who end up in two diverse destinations. They essentially argue that Israel and the Church have parallel but separate roles throughout time, and even eternity. They suggest that the Jews and the Christians are both currently peoples of God, only their promises differ. Believing this, they promote a ‘Segregation Theology’!

It was only after that Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the apostle was converted to Christianity that he became “a chosen vessel” of the Lord. Before that he was a child of the devil who was destroying the Church of Jesus Christ. He was a wicked man full of religion and hate. That is the story of history.

The "until" of Rom. 11:25 hasn't come yet, when it does than Rom. 11:26-32 kicks in "
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It's really simple, if you don't see that as being true then your understanding is wrong.

 

[Trekson]

If that is the case then it is the errant alternative that is presupposed. Anti-premill is anti-biblical. That's a fact.

The "until" of Rom. 11:25 hasn't come yet, when it does than Rom. 11:26-32 kicks in "
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It's really simple, if you don't see that as being true then your understanding is wrong.

This statement "Israel is not the central focus of Scripture, Jesus is" is true but what you're not understanding is that Israel is the ultimate focus of Jesus! The plan for Israel has been delayed, not completed and that is also a fact.

 

[WPM]

If that is the case then it is the errant alternative that is presupposed. Anti-premill is anti-biblical. That's a fact.

This is all your opinions. That is all you have. It is time to actually show hard Scripture that teaches your opinion and which corroborates it. Good luck with doing that with Premil!

 

[WPM]

This statement "Israel is not the central focus of Scripture, Jesus is" is true but what you're not understanding is that Israel is the ultimate focus of Jesus! The plan for Israel has been delayed, not completed and that is also a fact.

True Israel is - that is us today. We are the spiritual children of Abraham. We are the real Jews. We are the circumcision. We are the ones that are located in Zion today. You need to read the New Testament and see that that is a repeated New Testament truth. Race means nothing today. You need to move into the new covenant and see that the old covenant is gone forever. There’s no racial preference. Jews and Gentiles that reject Christ are of their father the devil. They are under the wrath of God and Antichrist. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. Any other gospel is a false gospel. It is another gospel.

We were grafted into true Israel. Apostate Israel is of their father the devil, antichrist, and under the wrath of God.

 

[WPM]

If that is the case then it is the errant alternative that is presupposed. Anti-premill is anti-biblical. That's a fact.

The "until" of Rom. 11:25 hasn't come yet, when it does than Rom. 11:26-32 kicks in "
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It's really simple, if you don't see that as being true then your understanding is wrong.

I addressed this and rebutted your opinions in post 45. But as seems to be your pattern, you avoided it.

 

[Trekson]

This is all your opinions. That is all you have. It is time to actually show hard Scripture that teaches your opinion and which corroborates it. Good luck with doing that with Premil!

I haven't seen you post anything proving it wrong either, but if one has to go about symbolizing and spiritualizing the things that God meant to be understood literally, then one just goes down the rabbit hole to a wonderland where everything can mean anything, one makes up.