The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Trekson]

Indeed, there are verses that speak about Christ fulfilling OT prophecies concerning him (Luke 24:44). There is a verse that state the OT prophets spoke about the apostles’ days (acts 3:24). There is also a verse declaring the destruction of Jerusalem fulfills ALL that is written regarding vengeance (Luke 21:22).


But beyond those verses, how do we concretely determine when a prophecy is fulfilled or not yet fulfilled according to God’s standards? maybe elaborate on your previous post about “descriptions”?

I believe Lk. 21:22 is speaking of Dan. 9:26b,c. In my bible, the words 'the" and "things" are in italics, meaning they weren't part of the original text and were added in by the translators to make it read better and it's possible that the add-ons could change the context. The context still speaks of a future in in the last part of vs. 24, which Paul repeats in Rom. 11:25. Lk. 21:20 & 22 are stand alone prophecies and are not among the gospel accounts of Matt. and Mark which leads me to believe that prophecy is only speaking of 70ad and "all" the prophecies about that specific event. The AoD spoken of by Christ was never part of 70ad. If it was fulfilling all prophecy than Christ would not have said Matt. 23:39 "after" vs. 38. I believe that 70 ad began the ToJT and is still ongoing, which is part of God's vengeance, "until" the fullness of the gentiles come in. There are a multitude of prophecies concerning the future of Israel. God showed me one today in Hosea 5:15 - "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." The context of Hosea 5 is speaking of God's severity toward Israel. The beginning of cp. 6 prophesies about the resurrection and what was accomplished on a personal level. I will go and return to my place is the Christ's ascension, til they acknowledge their offense, is speaking of Israel fulfilling the first three goals of Dan. 9:24. "seek my face" will be the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10 and "in their affliction they will seek me early", takes us to the 70th week when the ToJT is about to end. This could be the fulfillment of Rev. 12:14 which will lead to the post Armageddon fulfillment of Matt. 23:39.

 

[WPM]

I did address that one, w/ Zech. 8:23 showing "how" they will be acting as the church. Why would you want to be here anyway, heaven is going to be way better?

Of course, but that is nowhere in sight. The only mention of the Messiah in that context is that Messiah arrives and dies within a few days of the last part of the 69th week.

No you did not answer anything. That is your pattern. You make it up as you go.

Your attempt at spiritual apartheid has blew up in your face.

 

[WPM]

No, they don't, we just see prophecy speaking of different destinies for Israel and the church once the church age is over, but the way of salvation will never change.

Where? It is time to abandon the old covenant. It has gone forever.

Where does the Bible describe "the church age"? Nowhere! You make it up as you go.

There is one Lord, one people of God, one salvation and one eternal destiny.

 

[covenantee]

Where? It is time to abandon the old covenant. It has gone forever.

Where does the Bible describe "the church age"? Nowhere! You make it up as you go.

There is one Lord, one people of God, one salvation and one eternal destiny.

So true, bro.

This identifies what makes the current conflicts in the Middle East so abominable. Israel has deceived "Christian" zionism into fighting its old covenant wars for it.

We hear BN refer to Palestinians as amalekites.

Zionism is a racist antichrist, and "Christian" zionism is nothing other than "Christian" antichristianity.

 

[Trekson]

No you did not answer anything. That is your pattern. You make it up as you go.

Your attempt at spiritual apartheid has blew up in your face.

When one doesn't understand these foundational basics, then one's eschatology is built upon a house of sand. The prince of the covenant is the same prince found in Dan. 11:22-23. Face the facts, vs. 27 is 'not" speaking of the new covenant.

 

[Trekson]

Where? It is time to abandon the old covenant. It has gone forever.

Where does the Bible describe "the church age"? Nowhere! You make it up as you go.

There is one Lord, one people of God, one salvation and one eternal destiny.

If one rejects the unfulfilled prophecies of the OC, one is rejecting the words of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If one rejects the unfulfilled prophecies of the OC, one is rejecting the words of Christ.

What is being rejected here repeatedly are your interpretations of OT prophecies and the words of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When one doesn't understand these foundational basics, then one's eschatology is built upon a house of sand. The prince of the covenant is the same prince found in Dan. 11:22-23. Face the facts, vs. 27 is 'not" speaking of the new covenant.

Yet, it clearly is about the new covenant, so you need to get your "facts" straight. Jesus established the new covenant with His shed blood and that made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete. That is what Daniel 9:27 is about. I can't think of a worse interpretation of any verse in the entire Bible than the dispensationalist interpretation of Daniel 9:27 that turns a verse about Jesus Christ into a verse about an imaginary future Antichrist and turns a verse about the new covenant into a verse about an imaginary future peace treaty.

 

[claninja]

I believe Lk. 21:22 is speaking of Dan. 9:26b,c. In my bible, the words 'the" and "things" are in italics, meaning they weren't part of the original text and were added in by the translators to make it read better and it's possible that the add-ons could change the context. The context still speaks of a future in in the last part of vs. 24, which Paul repeats in Rom. 11:25. Lk. 21:20 & 22 are stand alone prophecies and are not among the gospel accounts of Matt. and Mark which leads me to believe that prophecy is only speaking of 70ad and "all" the prophecies about that specific event. The AoD spoken of by Christ was never part of 70ad. If it was fulfilling all prophecy than Christ would not have said Matt. 23:39 "after" vs. 38. I believe that 70 ad began the ToJT and is still ongoing, which is part of God's vengeance, "until" the fullness of the gentiles come in. There are a multitude of prophecies concerning the future of Israel. God showed me one today in Hosea 5:15 - "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." The context of Hosea 5 is speaking of God's severity toward Israel. The beginning of cp. 6 prophesies about the resurrection and what was accomplished on a personal level. I will go and return to my place is the Christ's ascension, til they acknowledge their offense, is speaking of Israel fulfilling the first three goals of Dan. 9:24. "seek my face" will be the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10 and "in their affliction they will seek me early", takes us to the 70th week when the ToJT is about to end. This could be the fulfillment of Rev. 12:14 which will lead to the post Armageddon fulfillment of Matt. 23:39.

Thanks for the reply, but This doesn’t really address how we can determine when God determines a prophecy is fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled.

sometimes the NT applies an OT prophecy to Christ in a literal fashion, a 1:1 if you will, like riding on a donkey, or his side was pierced. Sometimes the NT applies a prophecy in an abstract way, such as the OT passages prophesying of Jesus dying and being raised from the dead on the third day (there is no direct 1:1 literal prophecy of this in the OT), or the crying in ramah (Matthew 2).

So again how do we determine how God determines that a prophecy is fulfilled?

Is it simply a matter of the presence or absence of NT statements declaring things fulfilled?

 

[Trekson]

Thanks for the reply, but This doesn’t really address how we can determine when God determines a prophecy is fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled.

sometimes the NT applies an OT prophecy to Christ in a literal fashion, a 1:1 if you will, like riding on a donkey, or his side was pierced. Sometimes the NT applies a prophecy in an abstract way, such as the OT passages prophesying of Jesus dying and being raised from the dead on the third day (there is no direct 1:1 literal prophecy of this in the OT), or the crying in ramah (Matthew 2).

So again how do we determine how God determines that a prophecy is fulfilled?

Is it simply a matter of the presence or absence of NT statements declaring things fulfilled?

Most prophecies aren't 1:1, many times they might be 4:1 when combined gives you a literal answer. ex. Ps. 22:15-18 are speaking of the crucifixion yet vss. 27-31 are speaking of the millennium. What is left unsaid in this passage is the resurrection. That isn't mentioned directly but there are several passages that speak of the future things that Messiah will do and were left w/ the obvious conclusion that He must have been resurrected to be able to accomplish those things after he had died. Another example is Dan. 2:44-45 what hapens after the 5th kingdom is destroyed. In Dan. 7 the 4th beast is the 5th beast of Dan. 2 because the ten horns equate w/ the ten toes and the first beast isn't Babylon as Dan. 7:17 shows they come after Babylon. Dan 7:23, 26-27 is very similar to the Dan. 2 verses I offered. If we take Rev. literally than we know that none of the trumpet judgements have been fulfilled. There is no direct formula. History shows us the fulfillment of the first four beasts of the statue and the first three beasts in Dan. 7 and what the names of those nations were. How is the fulfillment of the prophecy described? And what that would look like if fulfilled? From that we should be able to tell.

 

[claninja]

Most prophecies aren't 1:1, many times they might be 4:1 when combined gives you a literal answer. ex. Ps. 22:15-18 are speaking of the crucifixion yet vss. 27-31 are speaking of the millennium. What is left unsaid in this passage is the resurrection. That isn't mentioned directly but there are several passages that speak of the future things that Messiah will do and were left w/ the obvious conclusion that He must have been resurrected to be able to accomplish those things after he had died. Another example is Dan. 2:44-45 what hapens after the 5th kingdom is destroyed. In Dan. 7 the 4th beast is the 5th beast of Dan. 2 because the ten horns equate w/ the ten toes and the first beast isn't Babylon as Dan. 7:17 shows they come after Babylon. Dan 7:23, 26-27 is very similar to the Dan. 2 verses I offered. If we take Rev. literally than we know that none of the trumpet judgements have been fulfilled. There is no direct formula. History shows us the fulfillment of the first four beasts of the statue and the first three beasts in Dan. 7 and what the names of those nations were. How is the fulfillment of the prophecy described? And what that would look like if fulfilled? From that we should be able to tell.

When I say 1:1, I mean in a literal manner. 4:1 doesn’t make any sense in that regard.

For example, Zechariah prophesies of the king riding on a donkey. Jesus literally fulfills this in the NT when he rides on a donkey, according to Matthew. But this 1:1 is not always the case, for example, Jesus says the scriptures foretold of his death and raising from the dead in 3 days. There is no OT prophecy that specifically states the king/messiah would be crucified, buried, and resurrected 3 days later.

My point is that we do not necessarily know for sure how God determines a prophecy fulfilled, unless the OT oracle contains the explanation OR the NT reinterprets it for us.

So let’s look at your position on psalm 22:27-31. You claim it is about the millennium. What NT passage explains the fulfillment of this?

 

[Trekson]

When I say 1:1, I mean in a literal manner. 4:1 doesn’t make any sense in that regard.

For example, Zechariah prophesies of the king riding on a donkey. Jesus literally fulfills this in the NT when he rides on a donkey, according to Matthew. But this 1:1 is not always the case, for example, Jesus says the scriptures foretold of his death and raising from the dead in 3 days. There is no OT prophecy that specifically states the king/messiah would be crucified, buried, and resurrected 3 days later.

My point is that we do not necessarily know for sure how God determines a prophecy fulfilled, unless the OT oracle contains the explanation OR the NT reinterprets it for us.

So let’s look at your position on psalm 22:27-31. You claim it is about the millennium. What NT passage explains the fulfillment of this?

Regarding this statement, "Jesus says the scriptures foretold of his death and raising from the dead in 3 days." I checked both Matt. 16 and Mark 8 and Christ does "not" say "the scriptures foretold" Did I miss one? There aren't any scriptures in the NT that describes what the millennial era would look like but there quite a few in the OT, but one reason could be because the millennial era isn't for the church, it's for Israel. Rev. 20 just affirms there will be a millennium.

 

[claninja]

Regarding this statement, "Jesus says the scriptures foretold of his death and raising from the dead in 3 days." I checked both Matt. 16 and Mark 8 and Christ does "not" say "the scriptures foretold" Did I miss one?

Luke 24:44-46 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead.

There aren't any scriptures in the NT that describes what the millennial era would look like but there quite a few in the OT, but one reason could be because the millennial era isn't for the church, it's for Israel. Rev. 20 just affirms there will be a millennium.

Jesus and the apostles were of Israel. The fact that you admit the NT doesn’t describe what the millennium era would look like, seems to me that they were unaware of such a thing. Revelation is a series of visions. Revelation affirms a “vision” of a thousand year reign. however, Revelation, nor any NT passage for that matter , nowhere affirms as to how that vision is to be interpreted. Any such attempt is guesswork.

 

[Trekson]

Luke 24:44-46 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead.



Jesus and the apostles were of Israel. The fact that you admit the NT doesn’t describe what the millennium era would look like, seems to me that they were unaware of such a thing. Revelation is a series of visions. Revelation affirms a “vision” of a thousand year reign. however, Revelation, nor any NT passage for that matter , nowhere affirms as to how that vision is to be interpreted. Any such attempt is guesswork.

Does your bible leave out the last two words, "concerning me" in vs. 44? It makes a world of difference. You asked about the millennium in the NT, but the disciples didn't have the NT to read but they were well versed in the in the prophecies of "the day" or "on that day", etc. and the multitude of other prophecies throughout the OT. When those terms are used in the OT prophecies, they understood it as, "the day that Messiah dwells on earth." When that happens, it will be the last day of the feast of Tabernacles which is a type for "when Messiah comes and dwells w/ men" which is what Jesus was referring to in John 6:54.

 

[covenantee]

Does your bible leave out the last two words, "concerning me" in vs. 44? It makes a world of difference.

What do you think "about me" means?

 

[claninja]

Does your bible leave out the last two words, "concerning me" in vs. 44?

No it didn’t leave them out. it simply translated them “about me” which is the same thing.

It makes a world of difference.

No, it doesn’t.

You asked about the millennium in the NT, but the disciples didn't have the NT to read but they were well versed in the in the prophecies of "the day" or "on that day", etc. and the multitude of other prophecies throughout the OT. When those terms are used in the OT prophecies, they understood it as, "the day that Messiah dwells on earth." When that happens, it will be the last day of the feast of Tabernacles which is a type for "when Messiah comes and dwells w/ men" which is what Jesus was referring to in John 6:54.

The NT is the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. No where do they affirm what you espouse.

 

[Trekson]

No it didn’t leave them out. it simply translated them “about me” which is the same thing.


No, it doesn’t.



The NT is the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. No where do they affirm what you espouse.

Do you mean that God exhausted his knowledge of every little event in the NT? Not even close. Just because the NT doesn't mention something doesn't mean it's untrue. God already told us what would happened in the OT. The OT is just as much God's word as the NT is. If all the prophecies about Christ' 1st advent were fulfilled, which I agree they were, that doesn't mean that all the prophecies that were not about Christ were fulfilled as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you think "about me" means?

This guy is so desperate to keep his false doctrine afloat that he even resorts to trying to claim that there is a difference between the phrases "concerning me" and "about me". It's just sad to witness how dishonest some people on this forum are and how willing they are to butcher scripture to make it say what they want it to say.

 

[claninja]

Do you mean that God exhausted his knowledge of every little event in the NT? Not even close. Just because the NT doesn't mention something doesn't mean it's untrue. God already told us what would happened in the OT. The OT is just as much God's word as the NT is. If all the prophecies about Christ' 1st advent were fulfilled, which I agree they were, that doesn't mean that all the prophecies that were not about Christ were fulfilled as well.

No, I mean that the teachings of Christ and the apostles, as presented in the gospels, book of acts, and epistles reveal how God determines fulfilled prophecy. If a certain OT prophecy is not mentioned/explained OR if a NT vision, such as the book of revelation, is not explained, its meaning is simply guesswork. Guesswork should not be the foundation of a theological framework.

 

[Trekson]

Not so, in many cases w

No, I mean that the teachings of Christ and the apostles, as presented in the gospels, book of acts, and epistles reveal how God determines fulfilled prophecy. If a certain OT prophecy is not mentioned/explained OR if a NT vision, such as the book of revelation, is not explained, its meaning is simply guesswork. Guesswork should not be the foundation of a theological framework.