The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Spiritual Israelite]

It includes gentiles as well.

I'm in shock. You actually got something right. Yes, Spiritual Israel does include Gentile believers as well. How can you understand this, but be wrong about pretty much everything else? I just don't get it. Keep studying. Maybe you'll come to understand the truth about the other things you're wrong about some day as well.

 

[claninja]

No, there isn't a clear teaching about it outside of Rev. 20. However, the millennium is about Christ's reign on earth, aka, the physical kingdom of God upon is referenced many times, especially in Rev. 11: 15. but the bible also talks about the spiritual kingdom of God that we are already a part of. One has to discern over 100 times which ones are speaking about the spiritual one and which ones are speaking of the earthly one. A little common sense will prevail in this endeavor.

So it’s guesswork, and This would be evidenced by the 100s of not 1000s of different interpretations by futurists

 

[claninja]

Sorry, but there is no such thing as apocalyptic literature in the bible. This term first derived from unbelievers speaking about prophecies that haven't been fulfilled. Just as satan planned, this phrase destroys the natural understanding of literal scripture. When God says something He's not playing mind games.

Numbers 12:6-7 6And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD.

Visions and dreams and oracles are not clear language according to God. The apocalyptic genre falls into visions - hyperbolic and symbolic language

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It includes gentiles as well.

Show it from Scripture! And please do not take verses out of their immediate contexst.

 

[Trekson]

So it’s guesswork, and This would be evidenced by the 100s of not 1000s of different interpretations by futurists

much of it is but educated guesswork, not just blind statements and by historicists as well

 

[Trekson]

Numbers 12:6-7 6And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD.

Visions and dreams and oracles are not clear language according to God. The apocalyptic genre falls into visions - hyperbolic and symbolic language language

Unless they come from God as they all do. He's not dismissing one over the other, God is just saying he deals w/ Moses in a different way as he is the first prophet among the beginning of the nation of Israel.

 

[Trekson]

Show it from Scripture! And please do not take verses out of their immediate contexst.

Gal. 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

[WPM]

Of course he didn't abolish the OC, he abolished the law and they are not the same. 2 Tim. 3:15-16 is speaking of the OT which was the only bible the first church had for decades. Guess what scriptures Acts. 17:11 are talking about? You got it the OT! The church age began when the law ended and Faith and Grace began, but it officially began at Pentecost. C'mon man sunday school kids know this!

You are avoiding again. That seems to be your pattern.

Where does the Bible state "the church age"?

 

[WPM]

Of course he didn't abolish the OC, he abolished the law and they are not the same. 2 Tim. 3:15-16 is speaking of the OT which was the only bible the first church had for decades. Guess what scriptures Acts. 17:11 are talking about? You got it the OT! The church age began when the law ended and Faith and Grace began, but it officially began at Pentecost. C'mon man sunday school kids know this!

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Gal. 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

So that means there is no Israel. No French. We are all androgynous? No females or males anymore? You are not understanding at all what that verse is saying.

Of course there is bond and free, in christ there are males and females! Even Paul said there are Jews and Gentiles that make one body.

 

[WPM]

So that means there is no Israel. No French. We are all androgynous? No females or males anymore? You are not understanding at all what that verse is saying.

Of course there is bond and free, in christ there are males and females! Even Paul said there are Jews and Gentiles that make one body.

What He is saying is that none of these things carry any spiritual weight today.

 

[claninja]

much of it is but educated guesswork, not just blind statements and by historicists as well

Exactly, it’s guesswork

 

[Zao is life]

Of course he didn't abolish the OC, he abolished the law and they are not the same.

The Old Covenant is based on the law and the Israelite's promise / agreement to do and to fulfill all that the law requires. The two cannot be separated because they are not separated by Moses or by scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

So that means there is no Israel. No French. We are all androgynous? No females or males anymore? You are not understanding at all what that verse is saying.

Of course there is bond and free, in christ there are males and females! Even Paul said there are Jews and Gentiles that make one body.

Christ is one man - the seed of Abraham, the Son of David, the Son of God, the Son OF MAN, and IN CHRIST there is neither Jew nor Gentile. The only way you can have separate nations IN CHRIST is if Christ Himself is "many" humans. The Son of man represents all the seed of Adam. The very first promise God made to Abraham was that God was going to make him the father of many goyim - and God said it three times in that very first promise to Abraham. The promise came through the Jews, and through A Jew. Specifically through Isaac, through Jacob (Israel), through Judah, and through Judah to Mary, then through the Son of God who took on human flesh, and was born of Mary.

He took on human flesh - not merely "Jewish" flesh - unless the Jews are not human.

 

[Zao is life]

"until" the fullness of the gentiles come in.

Read these verses in the same passage and see if you can explain the meaning of the word "fullness":

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their "the fulness" [G4138 pleroma]? (Rom.11:12).

The word is preceded by the definite article: "the fulness", and this is what it means:

4138 πλήρωμα plhvrwma pleroma {play'-ro-mah}
from 4137; repletion or completion, i.e. (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period):--which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness. see GREEK for 4137

4137 πληρόω plhrovw pleroo {play-ro'-o}
from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

It's a fullness of supply of grace being spoken about - and it's the same word being used for "the fullness of the Gentiles".

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25).

Paul is saying that part of Israel has been blinded until this period of grace is up. "Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" means the time for the supply of grace through the faith in the gospel of Christ has a limit - and Paul states that DURING THE SAME PERIOD the Jews who do not persist in unbelief will be grafted back into the Olive tree (Rom.11:23).

This is the only period of grace, brother. Stop bluffing yourself with false theology.

When Paul says "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes" (Romans 11:28a) he is still talking about the natural branches who became enemies and were broken off, who he began talking about at the beginning of the chapter;

and when he says "but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes." (Romans 11:28) he is still talking about the elect remnant who he began talking about at the beginning of the chapter, i.e the remnant of the natural branches - those same natural branches of the olive tree (Israel) with whom we Gentiles who have been grafted in, share in the root and fatness of the olive tree.

The above is the only thing Paul means when he says "And so all Israel shall be saved" because then he quotes the prophecy regarding Jesus: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:26-27).

He is talking about the one and only covenant in the blood of Christ that has taken away OUR sins (Israel - all the branches of the olive tree - the remnant of the natural branches + unnatural branches grafted in). Our Deliverer came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago.

You are bluffing yourself and have bluffed yourself into believing there is a second period of grace following the return of Christ during which "the Jews who had remained broken off" will receive grace. The unbelievers who grumbled in the wilderness all perished in the wilderness. They did not enter the promised land. This period of grace is what the author of Hebrews calls "Today" when he writes to the Jews:

"While it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." (Hebrews 3:15-19).

This is why Paul wrote to the Romans saying, "And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" (Romans 11:23-24).

But once this period of the fulness of (supply of) grace is over, it's over.

Stop bluffing yourself. The fullness Paul is talking about has nothing to do with a number (of Gentiles that must be repleted). It's talking about the fullness of the grace of God, the fullness supplied by God by His grace.

 

[Trekson]

You are avoiding again. That seems to be your pattern.

Where does the Bible state "the church age"?

Does it use those exact words? No, but it is described in Eph. 1:10 - "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him", Eph. 3:2 - "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward", Col. 1:25 - " Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.", Rom. 11:25 - " For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The church has an end date, Israel does not.

 

[Trekson]

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

Sorry but they are only speaking of the law vs. the HS within us. 2 Cor. 2:3 - "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." It would be utterly impossible for God to make a prophecy/promise and "abolish" it before it was fulfilled! What is "abolished" is the need for the priests to mediate through sacrifices offered as we now have the HS indwelling within us!

 

[Trekson]

So that means there is no Israel. No French. We are all androgynous? No females or males anymore? You are not understanding at all what that verse is saying.

Of course there is bond and free, in christ there are males and females! Even Paul said there are Jews and Gentiles that make one body.

Correct, we are "one" in Christ during this dispensation but that doesn't mean physically, but spiritually. God is "not a respecter of persons". That means he doesn't care about the outside, our physicality, it's the spirit and soul that matters.

 

[Trekson]

The Old Covenant is based on the law and the Israelite's promise / agreement to do and to fulfill all that the law requires. The two cannot be separated because they are not separated by Moses or by scripture.

Of course they can, the OT has many genres, law, prophecy, love stories, poems, history, battles, biographies, etc. Of course, they are separated because there were several aspects of life that wasn't included in the law. The law "Torah" is only part of the OT, the first five books aka the Penteteuch.

 

[Zao is life]

Eph. 1:10 - "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him",

= once, and once only. This is the dispensation of the fulness of times in which we now live and move and have our being. When it becomes repleted He will gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him".