The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Trekson]

Read these verses in the same passage and see if you can explain the meaning of the word "fullness":

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their "the fulness" [G4138 pleroma]? (Rom.11:12).

The word is preceded by the definite article: "the fulness", and this is what it means:

4138 πλήρωμα plhvrwma pleroma {play'-ro-mah}
from 4137; repletion or completion, i.e. (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period):--which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness. see GREEK for 4137

4137 πληρόω plhrovw pleroo {play-ro'-o}
from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

It's a fullness of supply of grace being spoken about - and it's the same word being used for "the fullness of the Gentiles".

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25).

Paul is saying that part of Israel has been blinded until this period of grace is up. "Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" means the time for the supply of grace through the faith in the gospel of Christ has a limit - and Paul states that DURING THE SAME PERIOD the Jews who do not persist in unbelief will be grafted back into the Olive tree (Rom.11:23).

This is the only period of grace, brother. Stop bluffing yourself with false theology.

When Paul says "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes" (Romans 11:28a) he is still talking about the natural branches who became enemies and were broken off, who he began talking about at the beginning of the chapter;

and when he says "but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes." (Romans 11:28) he is still talking about the elect remnant who he began talking about at the beginning of the chapter, i.e the remnant of the natural branches - those same natural branches of the olive tree (Israel) with whom we Gentiles who have been grafted in, share in the root and fatness of the olive tree.

The above is the only thing Paul means when he says "And so all Israel shall be saved" because then he quotes the prophecy regarding Jesus: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:26-27).

He is talking about the one and only covenant in the blood of Christ that has taken away OUR sins (Israel - all the branches of the olive tree - the remnant of the natural branches + unnatural branches grafted in). Our Deliverer came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago.

You are bluffing yourself and have bluffed yourself into believing there is a second period of grace following the return of Christ during which "the Jews who had remained broken off" will receive grace. The unbelievers who grumbled in the wilderness all perished in the wilderness. They did not enter the promised land. This period of grace is what the author of Hebrews calls "Today" when he writes to the Jews:

"While it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." (Hebrews 3:15-19).

This is why Paul wrote to the Romans saying, "And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" (Romans 11:23-24).

But once this period of the fulness of (supply of) grace is over, it's over.

Stop bluffing yourself. The fullness Paul is talking about has nothing to do with a number (of Gentiles that must be repleted). It's talking about the fullness of the grace of God, the fullness supplied by God by His grace.

The first def. of "fulness" is "complete", a secondary def. is "filled". Many words have several possible definitions, they aren't all the same, it's usually the context that shows you which def. is correct. Rom. 11:25 is similar to Eph. 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him"

 

[Zao is life]

Of course they can, the OT has many genres, law, prophecy, love stories, poems, history, battles, biographies, etc. Of course, they are separated because there were several aspects of life that wasn't included in the law. The law "Torah" is only part of the OT, the first five books aka the Penteteuch.

The basis of the covenant is this:

"And he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." (Exodus 24:7-8).

The "Book of the Covenant" is the Law. You cannot separate the Covenant from The Law it was based on. It was ratified with blood - the blood of an animal sacrificed for sin. The only other covenant ratified with blood is the New Covenant. The covenants God made with Abraham and with King David and with the Messiah are based on God's oath and on God's faithfulness alone. The Old Covenant is based as much upon the people's promise to obey the law - written in the book of the covenant - as it is on God's faithfulness to bless them if they obeyed and to punish their disobedience.

You do not understand the very scriptures you read - though you correctly understand that the Tanach has various genres such as law, prophecy, love stories, poems, history, battles, biographies, etc.

Just because we call the collection of those books "the Old Covenant" does not mean that they are all talking about the old covenant.

 

[Trekson]

= once, and once only. This is the dispensation of the fulness of times in which we now live and move and have our being. When it becomes repleted He will gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him".

Right and that will be the end of "this" dispensation, then we go on to the next one which is Christ ruling and reigning upon the earth.

 

[Trekson]

The basis of the covenant is this:

"And he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." (Exodus 24:7-8).

The "Book of the Covenant" is the Law. You cannot separate the Covenant from The Law it was based on. It was ratified with blood - the blood of an animal sacrificed for sin. The only other covenant ratified with blood is the New Covenant. The covenant God made with Abraham and with King David and with the Messiah are based on God's oath and on God's faithfulness alone.

You do not understand the very scriptures you read - though you correctly understand that the Tanach has various genres such as law, prophecy, love stories, poems, history, battles, biographies, etc.

Just because we call the collection of those books "the Old Covenant" does not mean that they are all talking about the old covenant.

There are a few more covenants, like the land promises, that have nothing to do w/ the law. The "law" was just the first.

 

[Zao is life]

then we go on to the next one which is Christ ruling and reigning upon the earth.

Which will be in a regenerated heaven and earth which comes with and at the time of our resurrection from the dead - just as Paul taught - a.k.a the new heavens and the new earth.

God did not create mankind to dwell bodily with Him in heaven. He created mankind to dwell in their created bodies on His created earth. God is the same yesterday, today and forever and God's purpose has never changed.

Nor will His purpose ever change just in order to accommodate your own personal fanciful religious ideas you have attached to scripture and called "Christian".

 

[Zao is life]

There are a few more covenants, like the land promises, that have nothing to do w/ the law. The "law" was just the first.

That land promise was part of the promise to Abraham. It will only be fulfilled on a new earth when God has brought about a new heaven and new earth. Isaiah spoke about it, and so does the Revelation.

The broken Law prevents any inheritance of the land promise in this current dispensation - because though the law was only added 430 years later, a condition to the inheritance of the land promise was added in the law, which was obedience to the law. Why do you think God promised a new covenant which would not be like that covenant of law?

PS: The land promised to Abraham is the inheritance of all the tribes of Israel and the Jews are only one of those tribes. Paul's tribe was another, and the other 10 tribes are Gentiles grafted in - because the ten tribes ceased being a nation before God forever - and in the nations their descendants intermarried with Gentiles, yet their number has become as the sand of the sea - as Paul told those who have ears to hear in Romans 9 when he included Gentiles in the promise regarding the ten tribes.

@Trekson Ephraim was the dominant tribe in the house of Israel (the northern kingdom a.k.a the house of Israel). Jacob (father of all Israel) told Joseph (whose two sons were born in Egypt to a Gentile Egyptian woman) that they would be numbered with Joseph and his brothers in the inheritance - and Ephraim (the prophetic name of the ten tribes used by Isaiah and others) would become the fullness of the Gentiles. (m'lo goyim in the Hebrew).

 

[WPM]

Does it use those exact words? No, but it is described in Eph. 1:10 - "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him", Eph. 3:2 - "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward", Col. 1:25 - " Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.", Rom. 11:25 - " For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The church has an end date, Israel does not.

LOL. So, you have nothing! The Church has been on the go since Adam the OT.

The problem with what you have been taught is that you fail to see the existence of the Church in the Old Testament, despite it being found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament - Septuagint (LXX) – which Christ and the Apostles employed during the early Church. That’s why Stephen could declare, in reference to the Old Testament saints, in Acts 7:36-38, “he (Moses) had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.”

The writer of the Hebrews quotes and applies the word ecclesia, as it exactly reads in Psalms 22:22 in the Greek Septuagint, to the Old Testament saints, saying: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:12).

Psalms 22:22 reads, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

This quote is taken directly from the Greek Septuagint, the bible that was used by Jesus, and Paul, and the disciples in the first century AD; tells us that the ekklesia (1577) the Church was alive, kicking, and written about throughout the Old Testament. Wherever people of faith were found and written about; the 'Church' was there to see.

The two phrases are therefore plainly synonymous and interchangeable, specifically relating to the people of God throughout time.

 

[WPM]

Sorry but they are only speaking of the law vs. the HS within us. 2 Cor. 2:3 - "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." It would be utterly impossible for God to make a prophecy/promise and "abolish" it before it was fulfilled! What is "abolished" is the need for the priests to mediate through sacrifices offered as we now have the HS indwelling within us!

What i quoted referred to the old ceremonial system involved in the old covenant.

 

[Trekson]

LOL. So, you have nothing! The Church has been on the go since Adam the OT.

The problem with what you have been taught is that you fail to see the existence of the Church in the Old Testament, despite it being found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament - Septuagint (LXX) – which Christ and the Apostles employed during the early Church. That’s why Stephen could declare, in reference to the Old Testament saints, in Acts 7:36-38, “he (Moses) had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.”

The writer of the Hebrews quotes and applies the word ecclesia, as it exactly reads in Psalms 22:22 in the Greek Septuagint, to the Old Testament saints, saying: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:12).

Psalms 22:22 reads, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

This quote is taken directly from the Greek Septuagint, the bible that was used by Jesus, and Paul, and the disciples in the first century AD; tells us that the ekklesia (1577) the Church was alive, kicking, and written about throughout the Old Testament. Wherever people of faith were found and written about; the 'Church' was there to see.

The two phrases are therefore plainly synonymous and interchangeable, specifically relating to the people of God throughout time.

Not really, the word "church" just means "called out ones' The Jews were the "called out ones" of God in the OT. The NT "church" are the "called out" ones of Christ, through grace. There is a difference.

 

[Trekson]

That land promise was part of the promise to Abraham. It will only be fulfilled on a new earth when God has brought about a new heaven and new earth. Isaiah spoke about it, and so does the Revelation.

The broken Law prevents any inheritance of the land promise in this current dispensation - because though the law was only added 430 years later, a condition to the inheritance of the land promise was added in the law, which was obedience to the law. Why do you think God promised a new covenant which would not be like that covenant of law?

PS: The land promised to Abraham is the inheritance of all the tribes of Israel and the Jews are only one of those tribes. Paul's tribe was another, and the other 10 tribes are Gentiles grafted in - because the ten tribes ceased being a nation before God forever - and in the nations their descendants intermarried with Gentiles, yet their number has become as the sand of the sea - as Paul told those who have ears to hear in Romans 9 when he included Gentiles in the promise regarding the ten tribes.

@Trekson Ephraim was the dominant tribe in the house of Israel (the northern kingdom a.k.a the house of Israel). Jacob (father of all Israel) told Joseph (whose two sons were born in Egypt to a Gentile Egyptian woman) that they would be numbered with Joseph and his brothers in the inheritance - and Ephraim (the prophetic name of the ten tribes used by Isaiah and others) would become the fullness of the Gentiles. (m'lo goyim in the Hebrew).

That will occur in the millennium where the new dispensation will begin which is Christ ruling and reigning upon earth. Your quote: "(the prophetic name of the ten tribes used by Isaiah and others) would become the fullness of the Gentiles". You're going to have to show me a reference on that one, as I'm not finding it.

 

[Zao is life]

That will occur in the millennium where the new dispensation will begin which is Christ ruling and reigning upon earth. Your quote: "(the prophetic name of the ten tribes used by Isaiah and others) would become the fullness of the Gentiles". You're going to have to show me a reference on that one, as I'm not finding it.

Follow the scriptures I'm going to quote now - and concentrate:

1. THE PROMISE

"And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of hamon goyim (many nations). Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of hamon goyim have I made thee." (Genesis 17:4-5)

2. THE SEED OF EPHRAIM

"And when Joseph saw that his father (Jacob - the father of Israel) laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become mlo hag goyim (the fullness of the Gentiles) - a multitude of nations. And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh." (Genesis 48:17-20)

The ten northern tribes are prophetically called Ephraim in the prophets - and Ephraim ceased being a nation before God (one nation before God) when they conspired with Assyria against Judah (against the Jews and Benjamites):

"And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.

Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear–jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller’s field;

And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah (because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal):

Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people." (Isaiah 7:2-8).

The ten tribes instead found themselves being attacked by Assyria and were exiled and never returned - and their seed have intermarried with Gentiles in the nations, ever since. Hosea wrote about them:

"Then said God, Call his name Lo–ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God." (Hosea 1:9 - God was not talking to Judah - He was talking to the ten northern tribes, a.k.a Ephraim).

Then Hosea wrote:

"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." (Hosea 1:10).

Before we quote the rest of the prophecy (which appears also in Ezekiel and in other prophets), take note that Paul quoted the above prophecy, saying,

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

- Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9:18-27).

Hosea closed with another prophecy, saying:

"Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head" (Hosea 1:11)

The rest of verse 11 is a repeat of what Hosea began to talk about in Hosea 1:4, saying,

"And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel." (Hosea 1:4-5).

God was not talking to Judah (the southern kingdom). The 10 northern tribes were defeated by the Assyrian king in the valley of Jezreel, exiled and scattered among the nations. And the kingdom of Israel (Ephraim - the northern kingdom) - ceased to exist.

The southern kingdom (Judah, i.e the Jews and the tribe of Benjamin - continued to exist). The kingdom of Israel ceased to exist over 150 years before the later exile of Judah (the Jews) to Babylon.

So Hosea closes verse 11 with what he began to say about Israel coming up out of the land (being exiled):

"and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

But Hosea said even more - something which was a mystery until Christ came:

"Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head" (see Hosea 1:1-11)

Jeremiah wrote:

"They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (Jeremiah 31:9)

Ezekiel wrote:

"Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ezekiel 37:16-22).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:28-29).

"And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of hamon goyim (many nations). Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of hamon goyim have I made thee." (Genesis 17:4-5). "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Genesis 17:8).

 

[Trekson]

Follow the scriptures I'm going to quote now - and concentrate:

1. THE PROMISE

"And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of hamon goyim (many nations). Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of hamon goyim have I made thee." (Genesis 17:4-5)

2. THE SEED OF EPHRAIM

"And when Joseph saw that his father (Jacob - the father of Israel) laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become mlo hag goyim (the fullness of the Gentiles) - a multitude of nations. And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh." (Genesis 48:17-20)

The ten northern tribes are prophetically called Ephraim in the prophets - and Ephraim ceased being a nation before God (one nation before God) when they conspired with Assyria against Judah (against the Jews and Benjamites):

"And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.

Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear–jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller’s field;

And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah (because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal):

Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people." (Isaiah 7:2-8).

The ten tribes instead found themselves being attacked by Assyria and were exiled and never returned - and their seed have intermarried with Gentiles in the nations, ever since. Hosea wrote about them:

"Then said God, Call his name Lo–ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God." (Hosea 1:9 - God was not talking to Judah - He was talking to the ten northern tribes, a.k.a Ephraim).

Then Hosea wrote:

"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." (Hosea 1:10).

Before we quote the rest of the prophecy (which appears also in Ezekiel and in other prophets), take note that Paul quoted the above prophecy, saying,

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

- Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9:18-27).

Hosea closed with another prophecy, saying:

"Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head" (Hosea 1:11)

The rest of verse 11 is a repeat of what Hosea began to talk about in Hosea 1:4, saying,

"And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel." (Hosea 1:4-5).

God was not talking to Judah (the southern kingdom). The 10 northern tribes were defeated by the Assyrian king in the valley of Jezreel, exiled and scattered among the nations. And the kingdom of Israel (Ephraim - the northern kingdom) - ceased to exist.

The southern kingdom (Judah, i.e the Jews and the tribe of Benjamin - continued to exist). The kingdom of Israel ceased to exist over 150 years before the later exile of Judah (the Jews) to Babylon.

So Hosea closes verse 11 with what he began to say about Israel coming up out of the land (being exiled):

"and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

But Hosea said even more - something which was a mystery until Christ came:

"Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head" (see Hosea 1:1-11)

Jeremiah wrote:

"They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (Jeremiah 31:9)

Ezekiel wrote:

"Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ezekiel 37:16-22).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:28-29).

"And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of hamon goyim (many nations). Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of hamon goyim have I made thee." (Genesis 17:4-5). "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Genesis 17:8).

In the last sentence"thy seed" in this case is plural and is speaking of Israel. God knows the dna of every person born and the 144,000 will consist of 12,000 from each tribe.

 

[claninja]

Unless they come from God as they all do. He's not dismissing one over the other, God is just saying he deals w/ Moses in a different way as he is the first prophet among the beginning of the nation of Israel.

right, and visions and dreams are often unclear language requiring interpretation and understanding. Unless, Are you telling me that you believe a real and literal 7 headed beast will come out of the sea, as described in revelation 13?

 

[WPM]

Not really, the word "church" just means "called out ones' The Jews were the "called out ones" of God in the OT. The NT "church" are the "called out" ones of Christ, through grace. There is a difference.

Ok. So the age of the "called out ones" is both OT and NT, as I said?

 

[WPM]

That will occur in the millennium where the new dispensation will begin which is Christ ruling and reigning upon earth. Your quote: "(the prophetic name of the ten tribes used by Isaiah and others) would become the fullness of the Gentiles". You're going to have to show me a reference on that one, as I'm not finding it.

Jesus identifies “the end” with His “coming” (including the passing away of the current heavens and earth) in Matthew 24:35-44. Paul does the same in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 supports this. It shows that “the coming of the Lord” ushers in “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked and “they shall not escape.” 2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-7 corroborates the fact that “the coming of our Lord” is the concluding day of time. These are irrefutable. Peter reinforces this in 2 Peter 3:3-13 telling us that the heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise, the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly, and the works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly at the coming of Jesus. Premillennialists deny this by spiritualizing this truth away. The coming of Christ is the end. That is if one takes Scripture literally.

 

[Trekson]

right, and visions and dreams are often unclear language requiring interpretation and understanding. Unless, Are you telling me that you believe a real and literal 7 headed beast will come out of the sea, as described in revelation 13?

No, but it is explained in Rev. 17. True symbolism is explained or stated in a way where what it is describing is very simple to understand or quite obvious.

 

[Trekson]

Ok. So the age of the "called out ones" is both OT and NT, as I said?

No, the church never replaces Israel. Israel was Israel. Since the crucifixion, Jews and gentiles unite as one. After the rapture/resurrection, God will focus again on Israel but in a new covenant way.

 

[WPM]

No, the church never replaces Israel. Israel was Israel. Since the crucifixion, Jews and gentiles unite as one. After the rapture/resurrection, God will focus again on Israel but in a new covenant way.

You are all over the place. One of your posts contradicts the next.

Old Testament Israel was the ekklesia in the Old Testament and the New Testament ekklesia is true elect believing Israel today. You have no answer to the biblical evidence presented. All you have is what you have been taught.

Your focus is natural ethnic Christ-rejecting Israel. The focus of Scripture and that of most Bible-believing Christians is Jesus.

The new covenant arrangement is not focused on natural Israel, it is focused on all nations today. Your focus on natural Israel is both unhealthy and unbiblical. The New Testament Church of Jesus Christ today is the fulfillment of all the Old Testament promises in regard to the blessing of God. God has no other elect people. We are enjoined to believing Old Testament Israel through Jesus Christ. We have been made one. The wall of separation is gone forever. Israel has been expanded to embrace all nations today. We are true Israel. We are the circumcision.

The Israeli theocratic tree has been cursed forever. We are now under the new covenant where there is no racial preference. We will never go back to the old arrangement. It is time to leave the old covenant behind you.

Judaism today is apostate. It rejects Christ - man's only Savior and sacrifice for sin. The New Testament Church is true believing Israel today. We are the true Jews. We are the circumcision in God’s eyes. We are the chosen people. We are the children of Abraham.

The elect Jews (the remnant) in Christ's time embraced Christ and were integrated into the wider transnational Church (of all races). This was always God's plan - right back to the book of Genesis. The true believer since the beginning belongs to Jesus Christ (the Messiah - the anointed One). Through faith in Him as man's only substitute for sin they make it to heaven. The unbeliever rejects Him and goes to hell.

We have joined faithful Israel, not replaced them. Thankfully, repentant Jews are still being grafted into the good olive tree.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “an important difference between Old Testament Israel and the New Israel should be noted. Old Testament Israel was both church and state, both a spiritual assembly of believers and a political entity. Many of the Old Testament promises reflect this theocratic context of Old Testament Israel. The New Israel, however, is not a secular state, not even in part. The political aspects of Israel's existence in the Old Testament have fallen away in the fulfillment” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

 

[WPM]

No, the church never replaces Israel. Israel was Israel. Since the crucifixion, Jews and gentiles unite as one. After the rapture/resurrection, God will focus again on Israel but in a new covenant way.

All mankind from the beginning is either found to be in one of two camps - saved or lost. There is no other company. There has never been any other salvation apart from that found "in Christ." Those that reject Him are found "in Adam." The elect “in Christ" in the Old Testament looked forward to Messiah by faith, the elect “in Christ" in the New Testament look back to Messiah by faith. 1 Corinthians 15:22 declares, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

 

[WPM]

In the last sentence"thy seed" in this case is plural and is speaking of Israel. God knows the dna of every person born and the 144,000 will consist of 12,000 from each tribe.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits not the last fruits as you have been falsely taught.