This is the context of how Dan. 9:24-27 should be considered!
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That is what historicism believes. To them the only thing left to fulfill is Christ's return and that is completely false.
Your claim is completely false. By the time of the Reformation, the Reformers had recognized the Roman papacy to be the predominant antichrist of their era. They recognized its characteristics in Daniel 7:8,20,21,24,25; and that it would continue beyond their era, to the end (Daniel 7:9-11,22,26).
The Roman papacy continues to be with us to this day, constituting an undeniable ongoing prophetic fulfillment, which will continue beyond our era, to the end.
It is historicism alone which has correctly diagnosed the prophetic times, refuting both preterism and futurism, which in any case were fabrications of the Roman papacy in its attempt to defeat the Reformation.
Thank God for the prophetic faith, vision, and sacrifice of the Reformers and Reformation.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
@Zao is life you are spot on!!
I always reference and quote to fellow born again believers 1 Cor. ch. 2, and that they should read, study and digest all of it. For, in so doing, they also will learn to seek and depend only upon the inward teaching of the Holy Spirit, using the KJV Bible.
By having such a focus, it prevents one from leaning towards and depending upon "the wisdom of men", of which I call visible "church-ianity", promoting their numerous denominational doctrines of men. Mat. 5:9.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Here's a marker for when Luke says the things he talks about in Luke 21:12-24 would be fulfilled:
Luke has Jesus giving birth-pain signs of then end of the age, then saying:
"But BEFORE all these .. " (BEFORE the birth-pain signs of the end of the age) .. "
Everything written in Luke 21:12-24 lines up with 1st century history - up to 70 AD.
Here's a marker for when Matthew says the the things he talks about in Matthew 24:9-31 will be fulfilled:
Matthew has Jesus giving birth-pain signs of then end of the age, then saying:
".. see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.";
and:
"All these are the beginning of sorrows.";
and:
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [tote: at that time] shall the end come.";
and:
"Then [tote: at that time / the time of the end] shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:9-13).
So those who want to believe that the entire Olivet Discourse is about things that took place in the 1st century BEFORE any of the birth -pain signs Jesus gave of the end of the age and the time of His return,
correctly expect you to understand and believe what the word AFTER means in Daniel 9:26 in relation to what comes AFTER the 69th week,
But they can't practice what they preach when it comes to the word BEFORE in Luke 21:12 which is said in relation to what comes BEFORE any of the birth-pain signs of the end of the age.
Nor can they practice what they preach when it comes to the words ".. see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." which is said in relation to what comes AFTER the birth-pain signs of the end of the age.
They do not practice what they preach - even though Luke's record also makes it so clear:
Luke 21:9 & 12
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
12 But BEFORE all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake ...
(etc)
Everything from Luke 21:12 up to verse 24 is written in the context of the words "BEFORE all these things" (BEFORE any of the birth-pain signs of the end of the age and return of Christ come to pass).
They also choose to ignore the meaning of the word THEREFORE in Matthew 24:15 and how the grammar links it to what Jesus was telling the apostles would befall His disciples at the end of the age AFTER the birth-pain signs have taken place.
So we can correctly accuse you for your ignoring the only meaning of the word AFTER in Daniel 9:26, but at least some of those who are accusing you are hypocrites when it comes to words and their meanings in the Olivet Discourse.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
First and foremost, as a "living soul [being]", your brain/mind would not react or function for thoughts, if it did not recieve oxygenated blood, of which is clearly stated in Lev. 11:17 saying: "the life of the flesh IS IN the blood", and therefore also nourishes all your other internal organs.
From that point, you now have to backtrack to the source of your oxygenated blood and
re-discover how it is that Adam, Moses etc. had no knowledge or even a clue of what "the breath of life" was, simply because Biology 101 and Chemistry 101 were not on the agenda with "tending the Garden", or as with Moses, the "tending of sheep".
So then, we can rightly conclude, that prior to Jesus' resurrection, NO ONE had ever been given anythng by God, that men call "an eternal, immortal soul".
Gen. 2:7, 7:22.
However, all oxygenated air breathing animals, as well as man, do each "become a living soul [being]" upon physical birth and their first inhalation of oxygenated air, by the use of the pulmonary muscles that God created within them.
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Christ’s audience in the OD doesn’t include those born 2,000 years later.
If the antecedent to “all these things” includes at least the literal temple destruction, and the antecedent to “you” is Peter, James, Andrew, and John, then Christ’s audience in the OD doesn’t include those born 2,000 years later.
You would need to demonstrate why Christ doesn’t answer there question and that there is a clear and distinct demarcation in time somewhere in the olivet discourse in order to demonstrate that the “you” is general and not specific.
This is a category error, just because “you” can sometimes be generalized, doesn’t mean it can be anytime. Matthew 18:19 does not contain a contextual clue for an instruction limited to any one particular generation. On the other hand, Matthew 24 contains events that can’t be generalized to everyone - for example the destruction of Jerusalem and fleeing from Judea, was specifically for Jesus’ generation. From a grammatical standpoint your argument doesn’t work.
You would need to show where in Matthew 24 there is a clear and distinct grammatical shift in audience.
In the linear reading of Dan. 9:26, the def. of the word 'after" is quite plain. 26a, the crucifixion, end of the 69th week, Christ died just before sunset, and that sunset was the 1st day of the 70th week, thus the word 'after" is correct in this context. The "people of the prince that shall come, in 26b are the important ones but it is talking about 70ad, 26c is talking about the same general desolations that Lk. 21:20 and Matt. 23:38 prophesied about, but they were "not" THE AoD spoken of by Christ from Dan. 11:31 and 12:11. An unknown amount of time "after" 70ad, in vs. 27 we finally have the final week. The "he" is speaking of the last person mentioned, "the prince to come" and neither Christ nor His church destroyed the city or the sanctuary. The word "midst" can mean the middle but it can also mean "anytime in the context" of as it is used in Zep. 2:14, 3:5, 11, 12, 15, 17 just to name a few. If one wants further proof that vs. 27 isn't speaking about Christ, Dan. 11:22-23 are speaking about the same fellow from 9:27!
I wasn’t attempting to see the reason you questioned him. I just thought it was ironic that it seems he believed you don’t understand what the Holy Spirit teaches in regards to that subject.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
There is no break in between any of the weeks mentioned in Daniel 9:24. The weeks are consecutive. The 70th week began when Christ's ministry began.
The word "after" in verse 26 is quite plain - it means following the 69th week.
- but like those who dig their heels in regarding the Olivet Discourse despite all evidence in the text being to the contrary, you are determined to believe what you will.
This is a good principle in theory. The problem is that many will ignore context, historical setting, audience relevance, grammar, linguistics, semantics, literary genre, scholarly consensus, translation consensus, etc….for their preferred framework.
In essence, their framework is scripture, not necessarily what the scriptures actually say.
Here is a partial cut / paste from my chapter 9 commentary on Daniel:
Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks…
Gabriel’s message to Daniel delivers one of the most remarkable timelines in all of Scripture—a countdown to the arrival of the Messiah. According to the prophecy, the Anointed One would come at the end of sixty-nine weeks of years, or 483 years, following the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This prophecy is unmistakably about the Messiah, and it unfolds with both promise and solemnity: restoration would come, but so would judgment. Just as the statue in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 represent continuous timelines through successive kingdoms, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 follow an unbroken, divinely ordered sequence. They’re divided into three distinct parts:
Seven weeks (49 years) – marking the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s streets and walls from 457 BC to 408 BC.
Sixty-two weeks (434 years) – a long, quiet stretch from 408 BC to 27 AD, leading straight to the Messiah.
One final week (7 years) – during which the Messiah would confirm the covenant and be “cut off” in the middle of it.
There is no gap or pause in this timeline. Daniel 9:24 makes clear that all seventy weeks are “for your people and your holy city,” binding the prophecy tightly to Israel and Jerusalem. While some interpretations suggest a pause between the 69th and 70th weeks—placing the final seven years far into the future—this breaks the consistent pattern of God’s prophetic design. Nowhere else does God interrupt His time-ordained plans with thousands of years of delay.
In verse 25b, Gabriel provides two interpretive anchors:
The first seven weeks encompass the physical restoration of Jerusalem—its walls and streets rebuilt in troubling times.
The following sixty-two weeks pass without specific detail, leading seamlessly to the arrival of the Messiah in 27 AD—at the very start of the 70th week.
Though that middle period remains silent, its silence is meaningful. It reinforces the unity of the timeline: just as the kingdoms in Daniel’s earlier visions moved without interruption, so do the seventy weeks.
The entire prophecy functions as one continuous movement toward redemption. The real focus, however, is not just on buildings or calendars—but on the restoration of God’s presence among His people. The Temple, its walls, and the Levitical system would indeed be rebuilt. But one thing was missing: the Ark of the Covenant. Hidden by Jeremiah before Babylon’s siege, the Ark was never recovered. And that was no accident. Its absence symbolized that only the Messiah could restore what was truly lost—God’s presence dwelling among His people. That restoration began when Jesus was baptized in 27 AD. As the heavens opened and the Spirit descended, God returned—not to a stone sanctuary, but in the person of His Son. The Ark had always symbolized God with His people. Now, in Christ, that reality was fulfilled. This is why the final week of the seventy must remain where it belongs: at the culmination of the 483-year countdown. To remove it from its appointed place is to break the very framework that points to Jesus and His mission. Unlike the earlier seven weeks, which focused on physical rebuilding, the final week is filled with spiritual significance and eternal consequence.
Within this final stretch:
Jesus fulfills all six objectives listed in Daniel 9:24—dealing with sin, righteousness, vision, and anointing.
He brings an end to sacrifices—His death rendering the old system obsolete (Hebrews 10:10–14).
He confirms the covenant—not through rituals, but through His blood, establishing a new and living way.
The Temple and the city are destroyed—just as foretold, this judgment comes in 70 AD.
Those who reject Him are left in spiritual desolation—cut off from the Presence until the appointed time of restoration.
To cast this prophecy into some distant future—awaiting an antichrist or a rebuilt temple—misses the heart of Daniel 9. This isn’t a prophecy about what might happen someday. It’s a declaration of what already happened—of the Messiah who came, who suffered, and who restored everything that had been lost.
Every part of this prophecy points to Him:
The seven weeks prepared the city.
The sixty-two weeks prepared the people.
The final week revealed the Savior.
And through Him, the new Temple was born—not of stone, but of Spirit. Not on earth, but from heaven. Not temporary, but eternal. The prophecy of Daniel 9 is not about delay. It’s about fulfillment. And the fulfillment is Jesus Christ.
Just the reality of what the bible actually teaches and not what folks want it to teach so they can maintain their false theology. Let's try a different look. Dec. 31, 11:59;59sec. pm, is 2025, Jan. 1, 12:00:01 one second after midnight is 2026, a child is born, they were born 'after" 2025. Jesus was never anointed as King, like David was which will be the fulfillment of Dan. 9:24, "to anoint the most holy".
Also, some want to apply a whole lot of things to "God's" word, the was never intended. Made up genre's like apocalyptic literature. Regarding prophecy audience relevance is irrelevant because the vast majority of prophecies were "never" for the times the prophet rec'd them. The HS should take priority over scholarly or translation consensus although the latter can be helpful at times. All the translators could do was interpret as best as they can. Almost any given Hebrew or Greek word can have multiple meanings depending on the stressors which the translators didn't have access to. While speaking, body language, hand gestures, emphasis can each change the word to a different meaning, which is why we have to try and connect it to the prophetic narrative we are given.
A few problems with this, Dan. 9:24 wasn't for Christ to fulfill, as the passage is "not" a Messianic prophecy, it specifically says it was for Jerusalem and Israel to fulfill. When the prophecy about Messiah coming was fulfilled, it wasn't as the beginning of the 70th week, it was the end of the 69th week., when Zech. 9:9 was fulfilled and that was just a couple of days before the He was cut off. The purpose of Dan. 9:24-27 had zero to do w/ ending the OT as there was a spirit of grace given to many until 70ad. It was about their last chance to accept him, when the 70th week actually arrives. Christ laid the foundation but it was for Israel to build upon on a national level. Much of Israel wasn't aware of Christ and His claims as they lived hundreds of miles away in different nations. While you may believe this is a messianic prophecy, which is not, is why you're not seeing the reality of what was being taught. Upon Israel's rejection, God paused the 70th week until the time would again be right and this gap period allowed for the birth and growth of christianity to the level it is at today and God will use the future GT to separate the wheat from the chaff. Does Dan. 11:22-23 sound Like Christ? It is speaking of the prince from Dan. 9:27. If one was honest w/ themselves and not stubborn or prideful they would see that any historicism based on this passage would be a false understanding.
No digging necessary. The Judaean Christians fled. Evidence in the text, and evidence on the ground.
To attempt to equate that to a decapitated orphaned undetermined 70th week is beyond absurd.
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Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Acts 4:27
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
There seems to be some discrepancy.
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Who in recognized historic orthodox Christianity has claimed that Daniel 9:24 is not Messianic prophecy?
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