Do we have free will or are we predestined?

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Do we have free will or are we predestined?


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Mathētria

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Everyone please note she is quoting a Catholic mystic who claims to speak for Jesus.

I've already made it clear that I'm quoting Jesus through one of His spokespersons, Maria Valtorta. And the term "mystic" in Catholicism means "a person who experiences an intense, direct, and intimate union with God, often characterized by profound prayer, spiritual visions, or extraordinary graces."
 

Debp

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I've already made it clear that I'm quoting Jesus through one of His spokespersons, Maria Valtorta. And the term "mystic" in Catholicism means "a person who experiences an intense, direct, and intimate union with God, often characterized by profound prayer, spiritual visions, or extraordinary graces."

I couldn't use the quote feature on one of your articles from said mystic. So I have copied a small portion which shows Catholic doctrine. I'm just warning our members that what you post is from a Catholic perspective.

The quote from your mystic...
"Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward."
 
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Mathētria

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I couldn't use the quote feature on one of your articles from said mystic. So I have copied a small portion which shows Catholic doctrine. I'm just warning our members that what you post is from a Catholic perspective.

The quote from your mystic...
"Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward."

There are many different perspectives on this forum — that’s normal, and it’s part of what makes discussion worthwhile. The only “warning” that really matters is that we treat one another with charity, whatever our backgrounds or traditions may be.

As for the quotation: in the text you cited, those words are presented as coming from Jesus. Maria Valtorta understood herself simply as an instrument — a pen, not the source. And if a statement is attributed to Jesus, then its audience is universal, not limited to Catholics.

That’s all I’m pointing out.
 

Debp

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Well, there are a lot of different perspectives on this forum — it's to be expected. What's most important is that individuals are treated with charity, no matter what they believe. And technically, in my understanding, the quote you cited is from Jesus. Maria Valtorta was just His instrument, or "pen". And anything Jesus says is for all, not just Catholics. :]
Yes there are different perspectives but on the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith we all agree... especially that we are saved by grace through faith. By what Jesus did for us. Although a believer will have good works, the works do not save us.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

The quote I cited was from your mystic who claimed it was the words of Jesus.
 
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Mathētria

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There are many different perspectives on this forum — that’s normal, and it’s part of what makes discussion worthwhile. The only “warning” that really matters is that we treat one another with charity, whatever our backgrounds or traditions may be.

As for the quotation: in the text you cited, those words are presented as coming from Jesus. Maria Valtorta understood herself simply as an instrument — a pen, not the source. And if a statement is attributed to Jesus, then its audience is universal, not limited to Catholics.

That’s all I’m pointing out.

Yes there are different perspectives but on the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith we all agree... especially that we are saved by grace through faith. By what Jesus did for us. Although a believer will have good works, the works do not save us.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

The quote I cited was from your mystic who claimed it was the words of Jesus.

I agree with you that we’re saved by grace through faith — that’s foundational. Nothing in the passage I quoted contradicts that. The line you highlighted (“those who remain faithful… are predestined to glory”) isn’t saying that works save anyone. It’s describing the same thing Scripture describes: that God gives grace to all, and that those who freely cooperate with that grace reach the glory God desires for them.

In other words, it’s not “works instead of grace,” but “grace offered to all, and freely accepted by some.” That’s exactly what Ephesians 2:8-9 affirms: salvation is God’s gift, and human response doesn’t earn it — it simply receives it.

And since the passage are the words of Jesus, they can’t contradict what He has already revealed in Scripture. If something seems contradictory, the contradiction is in our interpretation, not in Him.

The longer passage actually emphasizes free will, God’s universal desire for salvation, and the fact that no one is forced into Heaven or Hell. That’s not a denial of grace; it’s an explanation of how grace and freedom interact.

So I don’t see a contradiction here — just two ways of expressing the same truth:
God gives grace to everyone, and each person remains free to accept or reject it.
 
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St. SteVen

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Do we have free will or are we predestined?

Does God choose us or do we choose God?

Is salvation predestined or is it free will?

Are we predestined to sin or is it free will?

Are our jobs predestined or was it free will?

Is what we eat predestined or is it free will?

I think there are bible verses that support both free will and predestination but I'll let you guys give your opinions and present the bible verses that support it
Good topic, thanks.

Do we have free will or are we predestined?
Predestined.

Does God choose us or do we choose God?
God chooses us.

Is salvation predestined or is it free will?
Both. But primarily predestined.

Are we predestined to sin or is it free will?
We are born to a fallen race.
So yes, we are predestined to sin.

Are our jobs predestined or was it free will?
Jobs? Not sure.

Is what we eat predestined or is it free will?
Free will, based on what is available and usual?
 
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quietthinker

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Good topic, thanks.

Do we have free will or are we predestined?
Predestined.

Does God choose us or do we choose God?
God chooses us.

Is salvation predestined or is it free will?
Both. But primarily predestined.

Are we predestined to sin or is it free will?
We are born to a fallen race.
So yes, we are predestined to sin.

Are our jobs predestined or was it free will?
Jobs? Not sure.

Is what we eat predestined or is it free will?
Free will, based on what is available and usual?
Flatulence, predestined or free will?.....predestined when figs and beans are coming down the pike; freewill when the last post is practiced.
 
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St. SteVen

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Flatulence, predestined or free will?.....predestined when figs and beans are coming down the pike; freewill when the last post is practiced.
Not sure what you are saying here.
We are certainly predestined. Unless God calls us we CANNOT come to Him.
 
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quietthinker

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Not sure what you are saying here.
We are certainly predestined. Unless God calls us we CANNOT come to Him.
Ayee, in Jesus, the world is predestined....and when I hear that good news it can either be business as usual or I can allow it to melt my stony heart and give me a heart of flesh. I think Jesus had a heart of flesh.....that gives me a picture!
 
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St. SteVen

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Ayee, in Jesus, the world is predestined....and when I hear that good news it can either be business as usual or I can allow it to melt my stony heart and give me a heart of flesh. I think Jesus had a heart of flesh.....that gives me a picture!
Yes, in the final judgement there will be three kinds of people to deal with.
1) The Elect. Judged/rewarded according to their works. (work of the Spirit through them, or fleshly deeds)
2) The uninformed. Those who had no knowledge or CALL to a renewed relationship with God.
3) The "lost". Those who were informed (called) to a renewed relationship with God, but refused/neglected.
 

quietthinker

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Yes, in the final judgement there will be three kinds of people to deal with.
1) The Elect. Judged/rewarded according to their works. (work of the Spirit through them, or fleshly deeds)
2) The uninformed. Those who had no knowledge or CALL to a renewed relationship with God.
3) The "lost". Those who were informed (called) to a renewed relationship with God, but refused/neglected.
What about the fourth option? Those who agree with me? hlo
 

rwb

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God is supposed to be omniscient, all knowing. He supposed to know what your going to do before you do it.
So if He knew Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit then why did He put the tree there in the first place?

If God had not known mankind would disobey His command, bringing sin and death through sin into creation, why does Scripture speak of Christ as the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world? All knowing God, before creating man, made Himself the remedy for the problem of sin/death. Therefore, He created man with complete autonomy (free will) for them to experience both good and evil. How could man know/understand pain/suffering through death or even what is good/love everlasting life without having experienced good and evil? Without knowing evil, man would never know death, but without knowing good man would also not know/experience God's love. Without this knowledge how/why would man trust in God for eternal life? There would be no reason if man had not been condemned to die.

Genesis 2:9 (KJV) And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:5 (KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


After man disobeyed God and ate from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil, man was driven out of the garden of Eden and God blocked the way to the tree of life making it impossible for man to freely eat of the tree of life and live forever. Prior to disobeying God, man could of his/her free will choose to eat and live forever. But once sin and death through sin came into creation the freedom to choose life forever was taken away from man. Knowing from before eternity the tree of life would be blocked from man, and mankind would not be able to freely choose God to live forever, God chose us (every born-again believer) IN CHRIST to be holy and without blame before Him in love. All whom He predestined unto adoption as children by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, Christ made us (born-again believers) accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:4-14 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

While mankind is still free to choose what manner and way of life they desire to live in this life, since the fall mankind is not of their own free will able to choose eternal life apart from grace of God alone. For it is by grace through faith that man is eternally saved! Salvation (eternal life) from beginning to end is the gift of God for whosoever is born again.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 1:13 (KJV) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Debp

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I agree with you that we’re saved by grace through faith — that’s foundational. Nothing in the passage I quoted contradicts that. The line you highlighted (“those who remain faithful… are predestined to glory”) isn’t saying that works save anyone. It’s describing the same thing Scripture describes: that God gives grace to all, and that those who freely cooperate with that grace reach the glory God desires for them.

In other words, it’s not “works instead of grace,” but “grace offered to all, and freely accepted by some.” That’s exactly what Ephesians 2:8-9 affirms: salvation is God’s gift, and human response doesn’t earn it — it simply receives it.

And since the passage presents these words as coming from Jesus, they can’t contradict what Jesus has already revealed in Scripture. If something seems contradictory, the contradiction is in our interpretation, not in Him.

The longer passage actually emphasizes free will, God’s universal desire for salvation, and the fact that no one is forced into Heaven or Hell. That’s not a denial of grace; it’s an explanation of how grace and freedom interact.

So I don’t see a contradiction here — just two ways of expressing the same truth: God gives grace to everyone, and each person remains free to accept or reject it.

Your quote...
"And since the passage presents these words as coming from Jesus,"

You are a follower of the Catholic mystic. You believe she spoke the actual words of Jesus Christ...I don't.
 
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KUWN

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Do we have free will or are we predestined?

Does God choose us or do we choose God?

Is salvation predestined or is it free will?

Are we predestined to sin or is it free will?

Are our jobs predestined or was it free will?

Is what we eat predestined or is it free will?

I think there are bible verses that support both free will and predestination but I'll let you guys give your opinions and present the bible verses that support it
Can someone define predestination? And then define free will. I don't see predestination related to obtaining eternal life!!
 

Armour of God

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Can someone define predestination? And then define free will. I don't see predestination related to obtaining eternal life!!

You can use Google to define those terms.
If you look back on this thread people have quoted bible verses that use those terms
 

Mathētria

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Your quote...
"And since the passage presents these words as coming from Jesus,"

You are a follower of the Catholic mystic. You believe she spoke the actual words of Jesus Christ...I don't.

I have reasons to believe that Maria Valtorta was one of God’s instruments, yes, and I understand that you currently don’t share that view. That’s fine — I’m not asking you to.

When I said, “And since the passage are the words of Jesus, they can’t contradict what He has already revealed in Scripture. If something seems contradictory, the contradiction is in our interpretation, not in Him,” I was speaking about the internal logic of the text itself — not about your obligation to accept it.

In other words: if a text claims to present Jesus’ words, then within that framework it must be read in harmony with Scripture, not in contradiction to it. That’s all I was explaining.

Whether you personally accept Jesus as the source of that passage or not, the theological point still stands: the passage describes grace offered to all and freely accepted by some — which is fully consistent with Ephesians 2:8-9.
 

St. SteVen

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Can someone define predestination? And then define free will. I don't see predestination related to obtaining eternal life!!
Good question.
Yes, I don't see predestination related to obtaining eternal life either.

Predestination and free will are obviously contradictory.
The standard evangelical apologetic is to claim that we are predestined by our own free will.
Which seems like double-talk to me. We can't come to Jesus unless we are drawn.
Against our free will.

John 6:44 NIV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day.

  • Romans 8:29
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

  • Romans 8:30
    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

  • Ephesians 1:5
    he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

  • Ephesians 1:11
    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,