The FOUR HORSEMEN of the Apocalypse

[The Light]

It's well known that there are ancient aquifers in Israel, water is in such short supply there. Israel gets very little annual rain.

The point is the Temple mount is the Temple mount. There are cisterns under the Temple mount that brought water to it.

The wailing wall is the western wall of the courtyard on the Temple mount.

Fort Antonio is beside the Temple mount.

The Jews know where the Temple mount is.

These are FACTS.

 

[William Barton]

The Light noted:
<The Jews know where the Temple mount is>

I imagine some do. My point was that the ones praying at the wall of the Antonia do not know.

o The Temple was set near the Gihone Spring, since the water was necessary to clean up after the animal sacrifices. The Gihone Spring is not near the Wailing Wall.

o Jesus said there would be not stone upon a stone remaining (Matthew 24:2). Lots of stones remaining in the Wailing Wall.

o The black "Temple Mount" is in fact the tower contained within the Antonia Fortress. I walked up its steps and gazed at the large area. That area was the camp of the Romans.

The Romans tore down the temple, as prophesied by Jesus (Mark 13:2). It's gone, *not one stone upon a stone* remaining, as prophesied by Jesus.. Hence IMO the Wailing Wall is not part of the temple

 

[The Light]

The Light noted:
<Temple Mount is the Temple Mount.>

o The Temple was near the Gihone Spring, since the water was necessary to clean up after the animal sacrifices. The Gihone Spring is not near the Wailing Wall.

As has already been pointed out, there are cisterns that are underground that used to bring water to the Temple mount. This is FACT.

Why are there cisterns under the recognized Temple mount?

o Jesus said there would be not stone upon a stone remaining (Matthew 24:2). Lots of stones remaining in the Wailing Wall.

Exactly. There is still one stone upon another in the buildings of the Temple. In other words, the prophecy is unfulfilled.

If the prophecy was fulfilled what sign was there when these things came to pass.

Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Looking at Matthew 24 the disciples question Jesus. When will there not be one stone up another and what shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign has not happened yet.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

o The black "Temple Mount" is in fact the tower contained within the Antonia Fortress. I walked up its steps and gazed at the large area. That area was the camp of the Romans.

This is not correct. Fort Antonia is next to the Temple mount. It was next to the Temple to protect the Temple. Why would it be almost a mile away?

Secondly, the Wailing Wall is the western wall of four walls that were built around the Temple on the Temple Mount.

The Romans tore down the temple, as prophesied by Jesus (Mark 13:2). It's gone, *not one stone upon a stone* remaining, as prophesied by Jesus.. Hence IMO the Wailing Wall is not part of the temple.

I wonder who would know more. The Jews that live there, or people that don't. If that wall was not part of the buildings of the Temple, why are the Jew praying there? Why is Fort Antonia located next to the Temple Mount?

 

[William Barton]

The light noted:
<cisterns>

The Spring of Gihon was a chief source of water for ancient Israel, and it is still in use. Cistern collecting rain water were another source.

They also use natural freshwater sources, desalination, and wastewater reuse.

<still one stone upon another>

For the Roman fortress, yes. For the temple, IMO no.

BTW the temple "stones" were huge.

 

[William Barton]

As has already been pointed out, there are cisterns that are underground that used to bring water to the Temple mount. This is FACT.

Why are there cisterns under the recognized Temple mount?


Exactly. There is still one stone upon another in the buildings of the Temple. In other words, the prophecy is unfulfilled.

If the prophecy was fulfilled what sign was there when these things came to pass.

Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Looking at Matthew 24 the disciples question Jesus. When will there not be one stone up another and what shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign has not happened yet.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


This is not correct. Fort Antonia is next to the Temple mount. It was next to the Temple to protect the Temple. Why would it be almost a mile away?

Secondly, the Wailing Wall is the western wall of four walls that were built around the Temple on the Temple Mount.


I wonder who would know more. The Jews that live there, or people that don't. If that wall was not part of the buildings of the Temple, why are the Jew praying there? Why is Fort Antonia located next to the Temple Mount?

The Light noted:
<cisterns>
Collecting rain water. We do the same.

If the Jews did not know their own Messiah, I would not expect them to properly understand prophetic history either.

Some did receive Jesus, some still do. It is God's choice (John 14:6).

 

[The Light]

The Light noted:
<I wonder who would know more>

If the Jews did not know their own Messiah, I would not expect them to properly understand prophetic history either.

Some did receive Jesus, some still do. It is God's choice (John 14:6).

It is prophesied that the Jews would reject the chief cornerstone. They are blinded.

I am unaware of any prophecy that says the Jews will not remember where their own Temple is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Secondly, the Wailing Wall is the western wall of four walls that were built around the Temple on the Temple Mount.

The Wailing Wall was not a temple building. The temple buildings had 4 walls and were enclosed. Jesus specifically said that the temple BUILDINGS would be destroyed with no stone left upon another.

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

 

[William Barton]

It is prophesied that the Jews would reject the chief cornerstone. They are blinded.

I am unaware of any prophecy that says the Jews will not remember where their own Temple is.

It was 2000 years ago, who do you think will remember it?

Do you know what was at your neighborhood 2000 Yeats ago?

 

[The Light]

The Wailing Wall was not a temple building. The temple buildings had 4 walls and were enclosed. Jesus specifically said that the temple BUILDINGS would be destroyed with no stone left upon another.

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

 

[The Light]

The Wailing Wall was not a temple building. The temple buildings had 4 walls and were enclosed. Jesus specifically said that the temple BUILDINGS would be destroyed with no stone left upon another.

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

 

[The Light]

It was 2000 years ago, who do you think will remember it?

Do you know what was at your neighborhood 2000 Yeats ago?

Those cisterns and underground rooms are there for a reason. Your failure to acknowledge these facts............is your failure.

Tell the Muslims they built in the wrong spot.

 

[Wick Stick]

Secondly, the Wailing Wall is the western wall of four walls that were built around the Temple on the Temple Mount.

The Wailing Wall is a retaining wall. Tradition thinks it was built by Herod the Great as part of his expansion of the temple. By building large walls around the existing hill, the flat area to build on was expanded.

This is not well-agreed upon. Many people think that the mountain to the south of the "Temple Mount" was the actual site of the temple. There are two good reasons to think so.

First, we know for a fact that this is where the city in the days from Melchizedek to David was located. We've dug up a bunch of the foundations of the "City of David."

Second, this is where the Gihon Spring is located. It's the only water source in the area. The temple ablutions required a water source. The Gihon was expanded and fortified over the ages in ways that suggest that access to the water was restricted strictly to that mountain.

 

[Wick Stick]

I am unaware of any prophecy that says the Jews will not remember where their own Temple is.

How about history?

In about 130AD, the Romans created the city of Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of ancient Jerusalem. Jews were forbidden to enter the city, and that rule continued for over 500 years, under both pagan and Christian Roman rule. It was only lifted in 636AD when Muslims conquered the city.

The Jews are the LEAST likely people to know where the Temple was. They were denied access to the area for half a millennia.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Mark 13:1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

What is the point you're intending to make here? I did not say there was only one temple building. I'm saying a retaining wall is not a temple building. The temple buildings referred to the buildings of the temple that each had four walls and were enclosed.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What is the point you're intending to make here? I did not say there was only one temple building. I'm saying a retaining wall is not a temple building. The temple buildings referred to the buildings of the temple that each had four walls and were enclosed.

You still have not listened to God well...

What part of the gospel is concerned with literal or physical stones falling and being laid even with the ground? That's not the message of good news or judgment that God is putting forth. The Gospel is all about the spiritual connotation of the stones of the Temple (Lamentations 4:1-2; Luke 3:8, 19:40; 1st Corinthians 3:12; 1st Peter 2:5) and city (Isaiah 41:1-2; Luke 19:44) of God. It is PEOPLE, not buildings. Don't you understand that the prophecy spoke of all the stones of the whole city, not just the Temple? Don't you understand that prophecy was NEVER literally fulfilled? Do you not know that there are stones left standing "one upon another" in the city to this very day? And I already knew that you are going to deny this to protect your flawed doctrine. So how then is this to be taken literally and claimed it took place in AD 70?

Luke 19:41-46

• "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
• Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
• For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
• And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
• And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
• Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."

This is when Christ said, "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up." The context matters! It was here that Scripture says it was the priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him. He was the spiritual Temple they would destroy, not the literal temple, and not the literal city. Spiritually, Christ was the Holy Temple, and the congregation as "stones" (people), was the Holy City. The Old Covenant Jerusalem, which was still in bondage because it didn't recognize the time of its visitation. Not literally, but allegorically. A physical city can NOT recognize anything, but spiritually it can, and it can fall because it's speaking of people, not physical stones. This part you do not get it!

Galatians 4:24-26

• "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
• For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
• But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

The stones (people) of old Covenant Jerusalem, versus those of New Covenant Jerusalem. Those still in bondage vs those who were set free from bondage in Spiritual Jerusalem. What we read in Luke 19:41-46 of the time of their visitation is the divinely appointed superintendence of the Lord when God offered up Christ for their sins to bring salvation, grace, and redemption, and judgment to Israel. Do you not understand the "context" of Luke chapter 19, as Christ told them the city would be laid even with the ground and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another, and then threw the buyers and sellers out of the Temple? How then is it to be taken literal when it was then that Christ said, "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up" speaking allegorically about His body - His congregation! Inconsistency is the hallmark of error!

Luke 19:43-46

• "For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
• And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
• And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
• Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."

Surely you should know that there "ARE" stones still standing one upon another in the city to this very day. How is that possible if it was meant to be taken literally, and it supposedly already occurred in AD 70? It does not make sense because inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Selah!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still have not listened to God well...

That statement means less than nothing to me coming from you, a person who foolishly denies the existence of Satan, demons and angels as created spirit beings who are separate from human beings.

What part of the gospel is concerned with literal or physical stones falling and being laid even with the ground?

The gospel is concerned with people putting their faith in Christ so that they will be saved and have the hope of eternal life. It also concerns the fact that those who repeatedly reject the gospel provoke God's wrath and leads Him to punish them. So, that is what happened in the case of the Jews back then. Most of them rejected Christ which is not what He wanted (Matthew 23:37-38), and, therefore, they ended up being destroyed in 70 AD. It's not the temple buildings themselves that what Jesus was prophesying was all about, but rather that the Jews would be punished for rejecting Him. And that punishment would include their precious temple, which had been rendered spiritually desolate, would be physically taken away from them by being destroyed with no stone left upon another. They were still trying to keep themselves under the obsolete old covenant by continuing to foolishly perform animal sacrifices and such at the temple instead of embracing the new covenant established by the blood of Christ, so it was destroyed and taken away from them to show that God is serious about repentance and people accepting His Son Jesus Christ. It's a lesson for everyone to learn from ever since.

By the way, there are no stones of the second temple still standing upon one another in Jerusalem today. That is just flat out false.

That's not the message of good news or judgment that God is putting forth. The Gospel is all about the spiritual connotation of the stones of the Temple (Lamentations 4:1-2; Luke 3:8, 19:40; 1st Corinthians 3:12; 1st Peter 2:5) and city (Isaiah 41:1-2; Luke 19:44) of God. It is PEOPLE, not buildings.

Hello? Have I ever said otherwise? No, I have not. See above for how I understand all of this. Address my view rather than the view of your straw man.

 

[William Barton]

The seven Jewish holidays reflect seven acts of the Messiah.

1. Passover: Slain as a lamb.
2. Unleavened Bread: Sinless body in the tomb.
3. First fruits: First fruits from the grave.
4. Pentecost: Sends the Spirit.
5. Day of Trumpets: Returns in judgment.
6. Day of atonement: Atones for Israel.
7. Booths: Millennial reign.