Focus On The Family

[Grailhunter]

Of course they were very Jewish. It would have been hard to let go of that long tradition that was up until that time the only tradition. But if your talking about James the Just, the brother of Jesus. Then yes at first he did not believe. But he did agree to allow the gentiles and went on to become a believer and in fact was martryed for his belief in the resurrected Christ.

Well, I am not saying anything bad about James either. Most scholars believe he was the leader of the twelve and was faithful.
And you are right about the Jews, old habits die hard. I believe I see in Paul's writings where he struggled with his Jewish heritage.

 

[Grailhunter]

Early Christian writings clearly teach that churches should care for orphans and widows, and that this care belongs at the heart of Christian life. Ignatius, Hermas, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian, Lactantius, and the Apostolic Constitutions all connect true faith with active support, protection, and fair treatment for widows and fatherless children.

The teaching is broad and repeated across the 1st to 3rd centuries, and it also appears in Bible passages such as James 1:27, 1 Timothy 5, and the Old Testament commands to defend the fatherless and widows.

It is true that the support of widows was the charity of the day, but that does not equate to general focus on the family.

 

[Grailhunter]

But in modern times this has all changed. I think there is a movement in the church to undermine the family and lose focus of the true spirit of the church in being an alternative community from the world. Its more about being relevant to secular culture and aligning with their ideas about what is marriage and family to appear all inclusive.

I cannot vouch for Australia, but that is not the way it is here.

 

[Grailhunter]

From memory the CC and I think Orthodox are the only ones that maintain the institution of Gods marriage. Which is think is the basis for the family.

institution of God's marriage?
Like I said the focus on the family exists in nearly all Christian churches in the US and as of 80's in Europe to.

 

[Grailhunter]

But they are more involved in helping the needy and minorities more than I think the CC with all their money and possesions. Really if we go by what the early church taught then Christians should be selling what they don't need and giving to help others. Creating their own communities and supporting marriages and families and the needy. Even sarificing their own comforts for others.

The Protestant have missionaries, the Catholic Church has assigned groups Franciscan monks and Dominican monks and groups made up of nuns....ever heard of Mother Teresa?
And charity is the way of Christianity.

 

[stevesonthebay]

It is true that the support of widows was the charity of the day, but that does not equate to general focus on the family.

The early Christians based the family on Jewish tradition which was based on (Genesis 1:28) reflecting the mandate to “be fruitful and multiply”.

Paul also mentions that a church leader has to first be hospitable and manage his own household and family. The importance of bringing the family up in the faith. There were clear setups on how a family should be and conduct themselves.

Parents were instructed to teach their children the ways of the Lord, as seen in Ephesians 6:4

Hospitality was a hallmark of early Christian homes, reflecting the biblical mandate to welcome strangers and support fellow believers. Romans 12:13

Acts 2:46: Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

Basically, Christianity made a struggling Roman family system better by changing the rules. Early Christian leaders called husbands and wives to a higher standard, telling fathers to treat all in the household kindly,

From my understanding the church has always looked upon the family as important. Especially promoting the traditional family of father, mother and children. The church certainly grew in families and this was the basis for western culture through the ages.

If anything it is modern ideas that have undermined the family. Women now put having kids and families lower than having a career. Along with the breakdown of the traditional family the birth rate seems to be falling.

 

[stevesonthebay]

institution of God's marriage?
Like I said the focus on the family exists in nearly all Christian churches in the US and as of 80's in Europe to.

I mean Gods marriage of man and women in a lifelong commitment and for the procreation of children.

Many churches and denominations allow divorce, and other forms of marriage and family in line with secular society.

It was the same when the Christian worldview became the main religion of the pagan Roman empire. Adultery was no longer allowed as well as other forms of sexual immorality outside marriage and more generally in society.

 

[stevesonthebay]

I cannot vouch for Australia, but that is not the way it is here.

I am not sure where you are from. But most western nations now see traditional marriage and family as discrimination. Of denying other forms of marriage and family.

This phenomenon has really only been happening in modern times since the revolutions of the sixties.

As a result, many denominations now allow alternative marriage and families to reflect secular society. If they were to insist on the tradition of marriage that has always been the case then people would call them bigots for denying the right for alternative versions of marriage and family.

The church needs to get back to looking after its own separate community of families. Rather than trying to fit in with the world.

 

[stevesonthebay]

Where was I questioning their preaching?

Sorry I thought you were questioning that the disciples accepted the gospel was for all after the Holy Spirit came to reveal the truth to them. When you sais "boy I wish that were true". As though it may not be true.

The term Gospel can mean different things to different.
For me there are four Gospels that tell us of the event during Yeshua's ministry and He words.

There is only one gospel, and Paul was forthright about false gospels. That even if an angel preached a false gospel, then this is to be rejected.

The gospel at its most basic is Christs death and resurrection on the third day. That this was a real event that happened to save all. Thats it really. That's why it can be understood by anyone even without education.

All the rest is the describing of the events around Christs birth, ministry and crucifixion and resurrection at the hands of Pontius Pliate. As well as linking Christ back to the Old Testament covenant as the fulfillment and the new covenant. But primarily it is the belief in Christs death and resurrection that saves.

As far as the twelve that left Jerusalem, we do not know exactly what they preached, but we have no evidence to suggest they were not Jewish-Christians.
When Paul went to Jerusalem, he said he only saw James, and of course James was not one of the chosen twelve Apostles.

Christ told the apostles to go and preach the gospel to all nations. So obviously the other disciples had left Jerusalem for other lands. Otherwise, they were disobeying Christ.

We do hear of traditions including churches built over places the other disciples went to or die in. This goes back very early. But being in foreign lands I don't think they were much revered or even known.

Unlike the others who stayed in Jerusalem where it all started and was still very much in people's minds.

We also don't hear of any heresies from the other disciples that they preached a different gospel. But we do here of the gospel coming early to many places like the Middle east and Asia and other outskirts which have long histories and tradition going back to the 2nd century. So, someone was preaching.

Nevertheless, I don't think a lack of evidence means they were preaching a false gospel. If anything, we can safely assume as being witnesses to Christs resurrection and receiving the holy spirit that they preached the same gospel of Christs resurrection.

 

[stevesonthebay]

I also think that the early church fathers (disciples of the disciples) can also add insights into how the early Christians applied and lived out the gospel and teachings. They were growing while some of the disciple's and especially John were still alive. But even afterwards they had the disciples of the apostles repeating the same.

It is only after much time had passed and the fresh words and lived experiences of these disciple's began to diminish that the church began to forget and change things.

It's like anything. People forget the horrors of WW2 and begin to make the same mistakes as time goes by.

 

[Grailhunter]

The early Christians based the family on Jewish tradition which was based on (Genesis 1:28) reflecting the mandate to “be fruitful and multiply”.

Paul also mentions that a church leader has to first be hospitable and manage his own household and family. The importance of bringing the family up in the faith. There were clear setups on how a family should be and conduct themselves.

Parents were instructed to teach their children the ways of the Lord, as seen in Ephesians 6:4

Hospitality was a hallmark of early Christian homes, reflecting the biblical mandate to welcome strangers and support fellow believers. Romans 12:13

Acts 2:46: Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

Basically, Christianity made a struggling Roman family system better by changing the rules. Early Christian leaders called husbands and wives to a higher standard, telling fathers to treat all in the household kindly,

From my understanding the church has always looked upon the family as important. Especially promoting the traditional family of father, mother and children. The church certainly grew in families and this was the basis for western culture through the ages.

If anything it is modern ideas that have undermined the family. Women now put having kids and families lower than having a career. Along with the breakdown of the traditional family the birth rate seems to be falling.

Quote the scripture that specifically talk about children. Quote stories about father's and sons. Like the Old Testament. Stories about mothers.

 

[Grailhunter]

I mean Gods marriage of man and women in a lifelong commitment and for the procreation of children.

Many churches and denominations allow divorce, and other forms of marriage and family in line with secular society.

It was the same when the Christian worldview became the main religion of the pagan Roman empire. Adultery was no longer allowed as well as other forms of sexual immorality outside marriage and more generally in society.

Quote the scriptures that talk about kicking people out for divorce back in biblical times or how the congregations dealt with adultery.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not sure where you are from. But most western nations now see traditional marriage and family as discrimination. Of denying other forms of marriage and family.

This phenomenon has really only been happening in modern times since the revolutions of the sixties.

As a result, many denominations now allow alternative marriage and families to reflect secular society. If they were to insist on the tradition of marriage that has always been the case then people would call them bigots for denying the right for alternative versions of marriage and family.

The church needs to get back to looking after its own separate community of families. Rather than trying to fit in with the world.

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say here but........
If you are talking about weird marriages.....they are an extreme minority.
And as far as weird and creepy views.......We have the democrat party......they are.....stupid, crazy, creepy, and consider being a criminal a freedom of choice.....BUT....most of them don't go to church......to busy with drugs and toilet paper sex.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry I thought you were questioning that the disciples accepted the gospel was for all after the Holy Spirit came to reveal the truth to them. When you sais "boy I wish that were true". As though it may not be true.

At the point of Pentecost, 50 days later, the Jewish-Christians considered the Gospel for Jews only. And later opposed Paul's attempt to take the Gospel to the world.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is only one gospel, and Paul was forthright about false gospels. That even if an angel preached a false gospel, then this is to be rejected.

Some people get the word Gospel mixed up with the action. There are.....
1. The four Gospels that tell of Yeshua's ministry and events and He Himself said He was there for the Jews.
2. The spreading of the Word and Good News. In other words calling the preaching of the words in the four Gospels as Gospel.

On the later, until Paul the Jewish-Apostle had only the details of the oral tradition of the four Gospel. Not a lot written yet. The Jewish-Christians were highly offended that Paul was sharing the Word with Pagans and inviting them into Christianity. And vigorously harassed Paul and his ministry. Finally the 1st Christian council occurred in Jerusalem where Paul and Peter and Barnabus met with James and James issued a letter to stop the harassment.

After the Biblical era Paul's writings were included in the message of the Gospels. At that point there were two Gospel messages. The Jewish-Christians were preaching that you had to be circumcised and follow the Mosaic Laws and sacrifice animals Temple and observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath to be a Christian.

The Gentiles preached that salvation was open to the world, and they did not have to observe the Mosaic Laws and there was no need to sacrifice animals, and circumcision was of no value and eventually focused on Yeshua's resurrection for the weekly Holy day, called the Lord's Day.

 

[Grailhunter]

But primarily it is the belief in Christs death and resurrection that saves.

Not sure what you mean by this....
Belief in Yeshua as the Son of God and the Messiah and Savior of the world is the first step in salvation.
Then you have repentance and baptism and the Bread and Wine Ritual.

 

[Grailhunter]

Christ told the apostles to go and preach the gospel to all nations. So obviously the other disciples had left Jerusalem for other lands. Otherwise, they were disobeying Christ.

Definitely sent them out, but Yeshua did not mention going to other places to preach to the Pagans. As I said, Yeshua Himself said He was there for the Jews.

 

[Grailhunter]

We also don't hear of any heresies from the other disciples that they preached a different gospel.

Really? Paul put a curse on the teaching of the Jewish-Christians.....
1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:1-6

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 2nd Corinthians 3:7

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrew 8:13

 

[Grailhunter]

Nevertheless, I don't think a lack of evidence means they were preaching a false gospel. If anything, we can safely assume as being witnesses to Christs resurrection and receiving the holy spirit that they preached the same gospel of Christs resurrection.

I did not say that the twelve preached a false gospel. They preached what they had from a Jewish perspective. They did not have the writings of Paul yet. Paul's conversion was about preaching the Good News to the world. And most of the world back then were Pagans. Paul said He was going to the Pagans to preach the Good News.

44 The following week almost the entire city turned out to hear them preach the word of the Lord. 45 But when some of the Jews saw the crowds, they were jealous; so they slandered Paul and argued against whatever he said. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and declared, “It was necessary that we first preach the word of God to you Jews. But since you have rejected it and judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life, we will offer it to the Gentiles. 47 For the Lord gave us this command when he said,

‘I have made you a light to the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the farthest corners of the earth. 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for
eternal life became believers. 49 So the Lord’s message spread throughout that region.

50 Then the Jews stirred up the influential religious women and the leaders of the city, and they incited a mob against Paul and Barnabas and ran them out of town. 51 So they shook the dust from their feet as a sign of rejection and went to the town of Iconium. 52 And the believers were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:44-52

 

[stevesonthebay]

I did not say that the twelve preached a false gospel. They preached what they had from a Jewish perspective. They did not have the writings of Paul yet. Paul's conversion was about preaching the Good News to the world. And most of the world back then were Pagans. Paul said He was going to the Pagans to preach the Good News.

44 The following week almost the entire city turned out to hear them preach the word of the Lord. 45 But when some of the Jews saw the crowds, they were jealous; so they slandered Paul and argued against whatever he said. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and declared, “It was necessary that we first preach the word of God to you Jews. But since you have rejected it and judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life, we will offer it to the Gentiles. 47 For the Lord gave us this command when he said,

‘I have made you a light to the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the farthest corners of the earth. 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for
eternal life became believers. 49 So the Lord’s message spread throughout that region.

50 Then the Jews stirred up the influential religious women and the leaders of the city, and they incited a mob against Paul and Barnabas and ran them out of town. 51 So they shook the dust from their feet as a sign of rejection and went to the town of Iconium. 52 And the believers were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:44-52

I don't think Paul was the only disciple that preached to the Gentiles. As mentioned, Peter a Jew came to realize that the Gentiles were included before Paul.

Paul did not come along until around 3 to 5 years after Christ left. Many Gentiles were saved before Paul came along. So, the message was already inclusive of Gentiles. Paul was appointed the disciple to the Gentiles as the one who officially taught the Gentiles how the gospel applied to them.

But the gospel was already inclusive in that the holy spirit came upon whoever heard and accepted the simple gospel that Christ died and was resurrected to save us. Peter realized this well before Paul came along.

If the other disciples went to faraway places outside the Roman empire where Judaism was not prominent then there was no pressure to focus on the Jews. The other disciples would have adjusted the gospel according to the audience.

In some ways the other disciples were also preachers to the Gentiles all nations in that their audience were non-Jews and they had to adjust the gospel accordingly. I don't think they would have lasted very long insisting that foreigners get circumcised. But they could relate to Christ dying and resurrecting to save them.

What Paul preached was not some secret. It was the truth of the gospel that all knew, and the other disciples would have realized this like Peter did.

Its only we hear more about Peter, James and Paul because they hung around the place where it all began and this was really the head office where the official teachings came from. Because this is where Jesus came from.