How Confidant Are You Being Saved?

[Wrangler]

Here is the difference.

Our hope is in Christ. Our hope is in the promise, that he has given us eternal life. and He can not lie

Your hope is in Wrangler. and your hope is in the fact you HOPE you remain in christ and do not fall away.

You claim humility. But your whole gospel is of the flesh

Nope. Hope. Certainty in what action will be taken by another. Not the same. If you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Wrangler]

But surely if Christ says that He never knew them, they cannot have been saved/been in Christ in the first place. If they had once been saved, why did Jesus not say, "I no longer know you", rather than "I never knew you"? Jesus said:

Really side steps the question of our burden in keeping the faith, remaining in him, abiding in him. Burden on us on an ongoing basis is stated over and over again in different ways.

Jesus acknowledge we are part of the Kingdom, a branch. However, if we do not produce fruit ... our fate is not the same as those who do.

 

[Wrangler]

He came to save me, and if I recieve his gift. He will do as he promised.

Again, only half the Gospel. "Receive" is another verb, which cannot be thought of as one and done because Hebrews tells us another verb, action on our part, has no sacrifice to cover. Jesus does as he promised but we do not is not his failure.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Speak for yourself. As for me, I "sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

you died?
you were judged?



thks

You have gathered a long list of commands, warnings, and evidences of spiritual life, then used them to support something none of them actually says. Scripture commands believers to obey, endure, pray, bear fruit, and follow Christ. But Scripture never says that Christ provides an “initial justification” and then waits for our works to finish saving us.

Paul did not leave this open for debate: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. He did not say God justifies the ungodly after they have produced enough obedience. He said righteousness is counted to the one who believes apart from works.

You say salvation rests upon us as well. Scripture says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5. You say we must participate unto eternal salvation. Scripture says believers are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24. Freely does not mean partly earned, partly maintained, or finally completed by man.

Good works have a necessary place, but you have put them in the wrong place. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” comes before, “created in Christ Jesus unto good works” ~Ephesians 2:8-10. Works follow salvation because God has made the believer His workmanship. They do not purchase salvation, preserve justification, or add anything to the finished work of Christ.

Yes, Christ’s sheep follow Him. Yes, true faith perseveres and bears fruit. A faith that produces no obedience is dead ~James 2:17. But Christ did not say, “My sheep keep themselves saved by following Me.” He said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” ~John 10:28. Their obedience identifies them as His sheep. His power is what keeps them.

You quoted commands to abide and endure, but ignored the power behind that endurance. Believers are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” ~1 Peter 1:5. Paul says, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” ~Philippians 2:13. Perseverance is real, but it is not man rescuing Christ’s unfinished work. It is God carrying His own work to completion.

“He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” ~Philippians 1:6. That verse does not say God begins the work and man finishes it. Christ is not a half-Savior. He does not justify a sinner temporarily, place him on spiritual probation, and then wait to see whether his works deserve eternal life.

The conscience must face the question plainly. Are you trusting Christ to save you completely, or are you trusting Christ to begin saving you while your obedience completes the transaction? Those are not the same gospel. “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6.

Good works are the evidence of salvation, but Christ alone is its foundation. Anyone who moves works from the evidence of salvation to the basis or completion of salvation has corrupted grace and given man something to boast about. Scripture shuts that door: “Where is boasting then? It is excluded” ~Romans 3:27.

sorry for the confusion
justification is a gratuitous gift of God, no works of ours

this is the initial or first grace we receive

receiving the grace of justification we have union with God & His saints in the communion of saints thru Christ, by grace, with the power of His life, grace, merits & the Holy Spirit.

Our good works after we receive the grace of justification are transformed by grace and performed in grace united with Christ and given life of the spirit because of God's grace operating in us!

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

Phil 4:13 in Christ? all things!

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

1 pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (grace)

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (grace)

1) we do not have eternal salvation

Mk 10:30 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 rev 2:10

2) we have the grace of justification

3) grace can be increased by good works mt 7:7 mt 7:14 mt 26:41
2 pet 3:18

4) grace enables good works
2 cor 12:9

5) grace can be lost by deadly sin

Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1-4
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
2 cor 4:7
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27
rom 8:1
can lose grace gal 5:4
can have grace in vain 1 cor 15:10
treasure in earthen vessels 2 cor 4:7
1 Jn 3:15 no life (grace)

We have union by grace not eternal salvation!

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Jn 10:10 life and life more abundantly

thks

questions are welcome

 

[faithhopecharity]

Speak for yourself. As for me, I "sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

you died?
you were judged?



thks

You have gathered a long list of commands, warnings, and evidences of spiritual life, then used them to support something none of them actually says. Scripture commands believers to obey, endure, pray, bear fruit, and follow Christ. But Scripture never says that Christ provides an “initial justification” and then waits for our works to finish saving us.

Paul did not leave this open for debate: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. He did not say God justifies the ungodly after they have produced enough obedience. He said righteousness is counted to the one who believes apart from works.

You say salvation rests upon us as well. Scripture says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5. You say we must participate unto eternal salvation. Scripture says believers are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24. Freely does not mean partly earned, partly maintained, or finally completed by man.

Good works have a necessary place, but you have put them in the wrong place. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” comes before, “created in Christ Jesus unto good works” ~Ephesians 2:8-10. Works follow salvation because God has made the believer His workmanship. They do not purchase salvation, preserve justification, or add anything to the finished work of Christ.

Yes, Christ’s sheep follow Him. Yes, true faith perseveres and bears fruit. A faith that produces no obedience is dead ~James 2:17. But Christ did not say, “My sheep keep themselves saved by following Me.” He said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” ~John 10:28. Their obedience identifies them as His sheep. His power is what keeps them.

You quoted commands to abide and endure, but ignored the power behind that endurance. Believers are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” ~1 Peter 1:5. Paul says, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” ~Philippians 2:13. Perseverance is real, but it is not man rescuing Christ’s unfinished work. It is God carrying His own work to completion.

“He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” ~Philippians 1:6. That verse does not say God begins the work and man finishes it. Christ is not a half-Savior. He does not justify a sinner temporarily, place him on spiritual probation, and then wait to see whether his works deserve eternal life.

The conscience must face the question plainly. Are you trusting Christ to save you completely, or are you trusting Christ to begin saving you while your obedience completes the transaction? Those are not the same gospel. “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6.

Good works are the evidence of salvation, but Christ alone is its foundation. Anyone who moves works from the evidence of salvation to the basis or completion of salvation has corrupted grace and given man something to boast about. Scripture shuts that door: “Where is boasting then? It is excluded” ~Romans 3:27.

sorry for the confusion
justification is a gratuitous gift of God, no works of ours

this is the initial or first grace we receive

receiving the grace of justification we have union with God & His saints in the communion of saints thru Christ, by grace, with the power of His life, grace, merits & the Holy Spirit.

Our good works after we receive the grace of justification are transformed by grace and performed in grace united with Christ and given life of the spirit because of God's grace operating in us!

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

Phil 4:13 in Christ? all things!

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

1 pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (grace)

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (grace)

1) we do not have eternal salvation

Mk 10:30 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 rev 2:10

2) we have the grace of justification

3) grace can be increased by good works mt 7:7 mt 7:14 mt 26:41
2 pet 3:18

4) grace enables good works
2 cor 12:9

5) grace can be lost by deadly sin

Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1-4
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
2 cor 4:7
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27
rom 8:1
can lose grace gal 5:4
can have grace in vain 1 cor 15:10
treasure in earthen vessels 2 cor 4:7
1 Jn 3:15 no life (grace)

We have union by grace not eternal salvation!

Yes. But many do not consider fully and therefore do not insert “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live" in where it occurs in the life of those who are born again of the spirit of God.

So, yes, I died in 1986--but I live!

Meaning, as God said, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”--in my day under the sun, I came to die, and did. But now live according to the promise and work of Christ. And then, yes, my body of flesh will "pass away" like "the heavens and the earth" when the times are fulfilled. Meaning also, that just as Paul also came to say, "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me", I too am here for a purpose, as are you if you have Christ in you.

Such is the good news of Christ!

after the free gift of justification we must participate in perseverance and sanctification until death

not saying Lord Lord but doing

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!



((endure to the end shall be saved))

mk 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

mt 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

mt 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

heb 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

heb 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

thks

 

[Wrangler]

We have union by grace not eternal salvation!

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Jn 10:10 life and life more abundantly

Brilliant.

I've founded IDOLATRY in such doctrines, using coded words, which deny synonyms and other apt metaphors. Over-spiritualized people today want to believe in a feminized Jesus, where he is sugar and spice and everything nice. He came to save the world from sin, not be used as an IDOL so we may sin with impunity ... "but I was saved" is not a Scriptural get out of hell card. Just lip service.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Jesus calls me to what church I go to. No man tells me where to go. I follow Jesus only.

not what Jesus actually says!

Men are commanded by Christ to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! mt 28:19

The witnesses of Jesus Christ!
acts 1:8

He who hears you hears me!
Lk 10:16

He who receives the one I send receives me! Jn 13:20

acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles.

acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Acts 16:30
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

1 thes 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

all the teachings of men!

but you will refuse to believe and obey!

The apostolic church and revelation are of both divine origin and divine maintenance and cannot be reformed!

John 5:23
That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

Therefore he who honors not the apostles Christ sent honors not Christ!
Lk 10:16
Jn 13:20
Jn 20:21


1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Spiritual fathers have care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Paul and John are speaking to adult Christians so they are our spiritual fathers!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nope. Hope. Certainty in what action will be taken by another. Not the same. If you can't understand that, I feel sorry for you.

I do understand it

My hope is in the finished work of Christ on the cross. for eternal life

My hope is in Christs continued work in me to grow me and complete the work he started in me

Your hope from what I read is in your ability or your actions.. unless you can show me where you hope in christ and his work alone..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, only half the Gospel. "Receive" is another verb, which cannot be thought of as one and done because Hebrews tells us another verb, action on our part, has no sacrifice to cover. Jesus does as he promised but we do not is not his failure.

Then again

Your faith is in your action.

My faith and my action is based on faith in Christ.

Why you cannot see this.. well I do not know

 

[faithhopecharity]

john destroys your hypothesis.
1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The author of Hebrews is right. if we deliberately keep on sinning (we live like we did before we claimed to know christ) there remains no more sacrifice. We are still under law. the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin.

The messiah said he will never leave nor forsake us
He said non will be lost
He said all given to him will be raised
He said they have eternal life. and they will never perish.

Do you trust the messiah. Or do you trust Wrangler?

From what I see. Like Armour of God. you all are trusting your own righteousness. and pumping your chest like the pharisee

He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Here is the difference.

Our hope is in Christ. Our hope is in the promise, that he has given us eternal life. and He can not lie

Your hope is in Wrangler. and your hope is in the fact you HOPE you remain in christ and do not fall away.

You claim humility. But your whole gospel is of the flesh

what is meant by eternal life?

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

yes. we grow.

But is growing required to be saved (as some suggest)

do we need to be faithful to the end?

thks

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

thks

yes..

and who practices righteousness?

1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

And who does not practice righteousness?

1 John 3:
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.


so the thing that seperates the 2 is one group was born again, One was not..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

what is meant by eternal life?

thks

Eternal - forever, everlasting, Never ending.
Life - As apposed to death. Living, united with Christ. no longer dead

a person who is born again based on faith in christ will as jesus said, never perish, but will live forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

do we need to be faithful to the end?

thks

to be saved? What does that look like?

Did Jesus pay for your sin. or do you have to pay for your own sin?

 

[Wrangler]

I do understand it

You say you understand it but they show that you don't.

My hope is in the finished work of Christ on the cross. for eternal life

All of our hopes are in Christ.

Your hope from what I read is in your ability or your actions.. unless you can show me where you hope in christ and his work alone..

See above. There appears to be a stronghold in disregarding your action of receiving the grace of God, the sin that not even Jesus sacrifice covers. You say you understand but continue to write of a half Gospel.

 

[Wrangler]

Your faith is in your action.

Wrong by half. Did Jesus say his real brothers are:
A. those no matter how they act; OR
B. those who act a certain way (in compliance with the will of God the Father)?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You say you understand it but they show that you don't.



All of our hopes are in Christ.

you say this, but then what you post does not show it

See above. There appears to be a stronghold in disregarding your action of receiving the grace of God, the sin that not even Jesus sacrifice covers. You say you understand but continue to write of a half Gospel.

What sin does Jesus sacrifice not cover? Its important to know. if his death does not cover a sin, there is no hope of forgiveness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong by half. Did Jesus say his real brothers are:
A. those no matter how they act; OR
B. those who act a certain way (in compliance with the will of God the Father)?

You have yet to show me where I erred

Is your salvation dependent on how Good you are. or how much you obey? or how less sin you commit. Or your ability to stay in the faith.

Or is it in God?

 

[faithhopecharity]

You have gathered a long list of commands, warnings, and evidences of spiritual life, then used them to support something none of them actually says. Scripture commands believers to obey, endure, pray, bear fruit, and follow Christ. But Scripture never says that Christ provides an “initial justification” and then waits for our works to finish saving us.

Paul did not leave this open for debate: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5. He did not say God justifies the ungodly after they have produced enough obedience. He said righteousness is counted to the one who believes apart from works.

You say salvation rests upon us as well. Scripture says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5. You say we must participate unto eternal salvation. Scripture says believers are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” ~Romans 3:24. Freely does not mean partly earned, partly maintained, or finally completed by man.

Good works have a necessary place, but you have put them in the wrong place. “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works” comes before, “created in Christ Jesus unto good works” ~Ephesians 2:8-10. Works follow salvation because God has made the believer His workmanship. They do not purchase salvation, preserve justification, or add anything to the finished work of Christ.

Yes, Christ’s sheep follow Him. Yes, true faith perseveres and bears fruit. A faith that produces no obedience is dead ~James 2:17. But Christ did not say, “My sheep keep themselves saved by following Me.” He said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” ~John 10:28. Their obedience identifies them as His sheep. His power is what keeps them.

You quoted commands to abide and endure, but ignored the power behind that endurance. Believers are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” ~1 Peter 1:5. Paul says, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” ~Philippians 2:13. Perseverance is real, but it is not man rescuing Christ’s unfinished work. It is God carrying His own work to completion.

“He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” ~Philippians 1:6. That verse does not say God begins the work and man finishes it. Christ is not a half-Savior. He does not justify a sinner temporarily, place him on spiritual probation, and then wait to see whether his works deserve eternal life.

The conscience must face the question plainly. Are you trusting Christ to save you completely, or are you trusting Christ to begin saving you while your obedience completes the transaction? Those are not the same gospel. “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace” ~Romans 11:6.

Good works are the evidence of salvation, but Christ alone is its foundation. Anyone who moves works from the evidence of salvation to the basis or completion of salvation has corrupted grace and given man something to boast about. Scripture shuts that door: “Where is boasting then? It is excluded” ~Romans 3:27.

do you really believe that there are no deeds involved at all?

you have accepted Christ, you are a new creation, the old things have passed away, there is nothing more you need to do.

no behavior positive or negative can change our status of eternal salvation.

You are saved, you don't need to abide in me Jn 15:1-6 you are always united to me even in sin.

do you believe these statements?