Actually Jesus returns twice...

[The Light]

Jesus associates the time of His return when speaking of Noah and Lot as a time when people will be marring, eating and drinking, planting, buying and selling...which isn't the description of the worlds "good time" environment at the end of the tribulation. This STRONGLY suggest a pre-trib thief in the night pre-trib return of Jesus

There will be a pretrib rapture of the Church. It is the grain harvest, barley and wheat. It will be like the days of Noah. This rapture will occur at the trump of God or voice of God.

There will be a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. It is the fall fruit harvest which will occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The great tribulation will be over and then this rapture will take place.It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

 

[CrowCross]

Nothing this verse show a 7 year tribulation. Nothing in this verse shows that the antichrist rules for 7 years. That's because he doesn't. He rules for 42 months.

The anti-Christ is on the scene for 7 years. The actual world wide rule begins in Rev 13 about 1/2 way through the 7 year tribulation.

 

[CrowCross]

There will be a pretrib rapture of the Church.

i agree.

It is the grain harvest, barley and wheat. It will be like the days of Noah. This rapture will occur at the trump of God or voice of God.

There will be a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth.

Which verse speaks of this?

It is the fall fruit harvest which will occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The great tribulation will be over and then this rapture will take place.It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

 

[The Light]

Can you speculate on the dates of the 4 horsemen?
Rev 6 sounds like those tribulations are early on.

The Church will be raptured before the 7 seals are opened.

Revelation 6 contains the 1st 4 seals which are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. It also contains the 5th seal which is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest seen in Matthew 24 and Rev 14.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[The Light]

The anti-Christ is on the scene for 7 years.

My Bible says 42 months

The actual world wide rule begins in Rev 13 about 1/2 way through the 7 year tribulation.

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a final 7 years that will begin when a covenant with many is made.

 

[CrowCross]

The Church will be raptured before the 7 seals are opened.

I agree.

Revelation 6 contains the 1st 4 seals which are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. It also contains the 5th seal which is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest seen in Matthew 24 and Rev 14.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.....when the entire thought is read...the entire narrative...The narrative speaks of the winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a final 7 years that will begin when a covenant with many is made.

That is the beginning of the 7 year period.

 

[Douggg]

The Church will be raptured before the 7 seals are opened.

The 7 seals were opened back when John was in heaven, to know what events were revealed when the seals were opened.

The events themselves have not begun yet.

Revelation 6 contains the 1st 4 seals which are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. It also contains the 5th seal which is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest seen in Matthew 24 and Rev 14.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus returns twice...

1. To meet up with us in the clouds
2. To return to earth to reign a thousand years

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - Revelation 19:11

Are you concluding that 1 Thess 4:13-18 takes place prior to Revelation 19:11 ???

 

[Douggg]

That is the beginning of the 7 year period.

It is best to refer to the 7 year period as the 70th week of Daniel 9, or 70th week for short.

The beginning of the 7 year period will be the confirmation of the covenant with many. A general consensus, although wrong, is that the covenant will be some sort of peace treaty.

The correct understanding is that the covenant is the Mt. Sinai covenant that the Jews of Judaism still go by. The Antichrist, who the Jews of Judaism will mistakenly think is their long awaited king of Israel, will confirm the M. Sinai covenant in the manner described by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The 7 years is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13, as a cycle that it is supposed to be done - from the place of God's choosing - which the Jews of Judaism consider to be the temple mount. Of course, such a speech cannot be done under current circumstances because of the Muslim control of the temple mount. But that will change once the Gog/Magog event take place.

 

[rockytopva]

Are you concluding that 1 Thess 4:13-18 takes place prior to Revelation 19:11 ???

We have got to rise up to be with him before we can return with him to reign a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree...the dead who have died will be resurrected with their spirits returning with Jesus...then...those christians who haven't died will be caught up in the clouds.

Okay, I'm glad we can at least agree on something.

No everything isn't literal...still, Jesus didn't leave in the way described in Rev 19 whether it be symbolic or literal.

What is the way (the manner) in which He ascended to heaven? Visibly and bodily, right? They literally saw Him ascend bodily with their own eyes. What makes you think He won't be visible when what is described in Revelation 19:11-21 occurs?

 

[The Light]

Which verse speaks of this?

Please clarify.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The total time of the tribulation is 7 years...the great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year long tribulation.

His entire doctrine on end times pivots off of the 6th seal and matt 24

Matt 24 says "after the trib"
( which is tge second coming on white horses)
He interprets that as "prewrath" ( after the "trib")
Well mat 24 "After the tribulation" is the second coming.
Jesus is saying "after tge 7 yr trib"
We KNOW this , Because , there is only one coming in power and great glory.
ONLY ONE...AND IT IS POST WRATH, POST 7 YR TRIB.
SO ALL THAT that "the light" is formulating is off of hyper definitions/ strict definitions...that DO NOT FIT.

THE sixth seal is looking forward to the second coming.
He says no it is prior to the wrath and that the wrath only lasts for a year.
The white horse coming is the coming in power and great glory.
It is at the end of the 7 yr trib.
He says no.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

His entire doctrine on end times pivots off of the 6th seal and matt 24

Matt 24 says "after the trib"
( which is tge second coming on white horses)

Do you understand that everyone who says they are post-trib is based on Matthew 24:29-31 saying that Jesus will come and the elect will be gathered "immediately after the tribulation of those days"? You acknowledge that He will come "immediately after the tribulation of those days", right? So, why do you create unnecessary confusion by using the pretrib and post-trib labels differently than everyone else?

 

[CrowCross]

Okay, I'm glad we can at least agree on something.


What is the way (the manner) in which He ascended to heaven? Visibly and bodily, right? They literally saw Him ascend bodily with their own eyes. What makes you think He won't be visible when what is described in Revelation 19:11-21 occurs?

The Rev 19 is a bit more than...Visibly and bodily.
The description presented by Luke in the Acts 1 ascension is nothing like Rev 19.

 

[CrowCross]

His entire doctrine on end times pivots off of the 6th seal and matt 24

Matt 24 says "after the trib"
( which is tge second coming on white horses)
He interprets that as "prewrath" ( after the "trib")
Well mat 24 "After the tribulation" is the second coming.
Jesus is saying "after tge 7 yr trib"
We KNOW this , Because , there is only one coming in power and great glory.
ONLY ONE...AND IT IS POST WRATH, POST 7 YR TRIB.
SO ALL THAT that "the light" is formulating is off of hyper definitions/ strict definitions...that DO NOT FIT.

THE sixth seal is looking forward to the second coming.
He says no it is prior to the wrath and that the wrath only lasts for a year.
The white horse coming is the coming in power and great glory.
It is at the end of the 7 yr trib.
He says no.

Jesus speaks of His coming several times and never tells us which coming or appearing He is referring to.
Due to the differences of the accounts...and no biblical contradiction...there has to be more than one coming.

 

[CrowCross]

Please clarify.

You said "There will be a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth."

Which verse says this?
if that's true...then cool. But please show how you derived it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Rev 19 is a bit more than...Visibly and bodily.

All it says in Acts 1:11 is that He would come in like manner as He ascended to heaven. It does NOT say there would be no difference at all in what happens when He comes back compared to what happened when He left. That's reading more into the text than what is there. The way or manner in which He left was visibly and bodily and that is the manner in which He will descend from heaven, also.

The description presented by Luke in the Acts 1 ascension is nothing like Rev 19.

We both agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 refers to the fulfillment of Acts 1:11. Is what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 exactly like what is described in Acts 1:9-11? No. So, I don't see this as being a valid argument.

 

[CrowCross]

All it says in Acts 1:11 is that He would come in like manner as He ascended to heaven. It does NOT say there would be no difference at all in what happens when He comes back compared to what happened when He left. That's reading more into the text than what is there. The way or manner in which He left was visibly and bodily and that is the manner in which He will descend from heaven, also.

Rev 19 return is not "like manner" in which Jesus ascended.

We both agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 refers to the fulfillment of Acts 1:11. Is what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 exactly like what is described in Acts 1:9-11? No. So, I don't see this as being a valid argument.

I disagree with your made up biblical gymnastics. Sorry.