Actually Jesus returns twice...

[The Light]

???? I'm not following you....Where does Rev 14 mention anything like 1 Cor 15. Perhaps it's there but I missed it.

To understand Revelation, you need to understand what you are reading.

For instance, when you are reading Revelation 14, we see there are 144,000 redeemed from the earth as first fruits unto God. When you have acceptable first fruits presented unto God that is a guarantee of a harvest. If the first fruits are pumpkins, we know the harvest is pumpkins. Since the first fruits are 12,000 from each tribe of twelve, we know the harvest is of the 12 tribes. So basically, these verses tell us that there is a second rapture. The first rapture is the rapture of the Church. The second rapture is of the 12 tribes across the earth.

We can further prove this by Hosea 9:10

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. But they served Baalpeor, so they would no longer be the first harvest. Those of the 12 tribes become the second harvest. The Church will be the first harvest. The fig tree has harvests. Learn the parable of the fig tree.

So as to your question, how do we know that 1 Corinthians 15 is the second harvest and is found in Revelation 14.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Feast of Trumpets is a fall harvest feast. Fruit is harvested in the fall. The LAST TRUMP is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. We can also see that the harvest of Revelation 14 is a harvest of grapes making it at the time of the fall harvest.

Revelation 14
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The Church is the grain harvest. Barley and wheat. Barley (the dead in Christ) is harvested in the spring and wheat (the alive that remained) is harvested at the end of summer.

Sounds like you're playing Chutes and Ladders.

It just a matter of understanding what you are reading. When the 7th trumpet sounds which is in the 7th seal, Armageddon is over. It's finished. End of story. The wrath of God is over. It's the time of judgment. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are getting more information of what happens in the first six seals. When you are reading Revelation 16 it just more information of what happens in the wrath of God, the 7th seal.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 14
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This verse isn't good news for you if you see the sickle.

 

[rebuilder 454]

One of the purposes of this thread was to show there is more than one return of Christ Jesus. I would also say that is biblically undeniable. There is more than one return of Jesus.

Then you brought up Rev 14. My initial thought was to push back...As the description is "like the son of man" Not "the" son of man...then I read Daniel 7.

13“I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.

This Dan 13 verse about Jesus pretty much matches Rev 14....14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, .....The verse continues and certainly doesn't come close to matching the verses of Christ return in Rev 19. Rev 14 also lacks a white horse. In fact the verse is closer in resemblance to 1 Thes 4:16ish than Rev 19:11.
Thing is, when Jesus ascended and returns in the same way...

So we know Rev 14 isn't Rev 19...but could it be 1 Thes 4? I'm leaning towards, no.
If Revelation is in a chronological order this event is after the mark of the beast decree in the previous chapter.

Could Rev 14 be....Mark 14:62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” From that description the answer is yes.

We also know when Jesus left He wasn't reaping like Rev 14 describes...

As of this moment rebuilder 454 I'm not 100% convinced....but by you presenting Rev 14 as a 3rd return....you moved the needle.

Wha I have failed to see is the a-mill opinion Jesus returns once merge all the description into one event.

Glad to hear it.
1) the Jewish gathering is in Romans 9-11.
2) the Jewish wife is in Hosea, and Ruth.
3) the first miracle of Jesus was at a wedding...a Jewish wedding.
In God's kingdom, the last is first and the first is last. They are interchangeable.
At the miracle of the first wedding it was declared "you saved the best for last "

IOW, The first miracle HAD TO BE at a Jewish wedding.
The Jews come in last.
4) THE CHURCH AGE is finished at the pretrib rapture. The 7byr trib is JACOB'S TROUBLE.
Israel's trouble, Jewish trouble.
5) The Purpose of the Tribulation is the Jewish covenant people being plowed up and prepared for The Appearance of Jesus coming in the clouds for them. The Jews are saves when they see the Messiah and call out to the Messiah who they have been waiting for.

Rev 14 is a Jewish only gathering.
3 comings.

 

[The Light]

This verse isn't good news for you if you see the sickle.

Here is the good news of Rev 14 for the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The point was to show that this rapture occurs in the fall fruit harvest. The Church is raptured in the grain harvest (1 Thes 4)

 

[The Light]

4) THE CHURCH AGE is finished at the pretrib rapture. The 7byr trib is JACOB'S TROUBLE.
Israel's trouble, Jewish trouble.

There is no 7 year tribulation. The Church is NOT in the ark 7 days before the flood.

There only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. Time, Times and half a time.

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes itwhy would be unpleasant. Unlike you, I don't want to go through this wrath of God. You seem to looking forward to taking the mark.

All you pre-tribs can do is lie in response to the truth you are shown from scripture. No believer is appointed to God's wrath (1 Thess 5:9). Never have I said I want to go through God's wrath. Why do you lie? The only wrath that we will be taken off of the earth to avoid is the wrath of Christ on the day when He comes as a thief in the night and burns up the earth and destroys all unbelievers with "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who are the elect in the farthest part of heaven?

The souls of the dead in Christ.

1 Thessalonian 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you open to hearing the words of the LORD???

He is not. Let's move on from him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

SI is Another troll.
Again they go personal. And hate on the brethren.

I speak the truth from scripture and you call it trolling. You get upset when your false beliefs are thoroughly refuted by scripture and your only response is to accuse of trolling. You are completely incapable of supporting your false doctrine with scripture which is why your posts are full of claims that you don't back up with coherent arguments from scripture. Any person with eyes to see and ears to hear can see what a fraud you are.

He is amil, wich is a different bible.
Way way off.
Like a pack of thugs they attack any challenges together made up mess.
Put him and David on ignore.

LOL. How about you cry some more about us going personal while you call us "a pack of thugs". Yeah, that's not personal, right? Hypocrite. Yeah, put us on ignore so that you avoid the humiliation of not being able to respond with sound arguments using scripture. You know that you have no ability whatsoever to exegete scripture and provide coherent arguments, so you resort to whining about things getting personal while making personal insults.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

....and yet lot, Noah, the baby Jesus, were all removed.

What happened right after Noah and Lot were removed? Everyone else all were killed. Jesus said that is what will happen when He comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30). You ignore that and think there will be mortal survivors when He comes. There will not.

The ones taken/removed in mat 24.
The wise virgins taken to the marriage chamber.
The 2 escape (Removal) verses by JESUS.
So maybe the bible got it wrong.

No, you get it wrong when you say there will be unbelievers who are allowed to survive when Jesus comes. Many scriptures teach otherwise.

 

[amigo de christo]

He is not. Let's move on from him.

Contenders of and for the one true faith , MOUNT UP .
The hour is late and grows very late .
The hour we were warned would come indeed rises up .
The inquity has blossomed and the rotted fruit swells in the vine .
When the MASTER of the HOUSE rises up and closes the door
then all OUTSIDE shall surely wail .
Perseuctions and tribulations against the saints will only increase
with whatever time we even have left in this world .
The time is coming and now is
When all who have united in mind and in heart
under an ecumeincal harlot .
WHEN all the religoins cry we are one and serve the same God ,
WHEN the giver of the solution that all , not in the lambs book of life will buy .
The greatest of all perseuctions against the saints throughout all times , WILL BEGIN .
And they will BELIEVE they do the will of GOD for to attain world peace n safety .
But its peace DENIED THE ONE TRUE PEACE plan of GOD , which is TO BELIEVE ON HIS CHRIST JESUS , ON HIS GLORIOUS SON
so as one could be reconciled to and have peace with GOD .
ITS peace DENIED THAT and rather sold the lie of an anti christ .
WHO by peace SHALL destroy many . The hour cometh when they shall chant as one
We serve the Holy God and HE is love , come let us all have one purse
and cast the cords of this biblical GOD and CHRIST , his words , his gopsel FROM OFF us
for the inclusive god is now their god . Only do i really need to say why i say god and NOT GOD .
cause it aint god , its the prince of all darkness simply masquerading as the god of light .
And the darkness that is in them , WHICH THEY SAY IS LIGHT , oh its gross darkness my friend .
FOR if the light that is in one be darkness , THEN GREAT IS the DARKNESS . The end is coming
upon all who loved a lie and thus rejected the TRUTH .

 

[CrowCross]

All you pre-tribs can do is lie in response to the truth you are shown from scripture. No believer is appointed to God's wrath (1 Thess 5:9). Never have I said I want to go through God's wrath. Why do you lie? The only wrath that we will be taken off of the earth to avoid is the wrath of Christ on the day when He comes as a thief in the night and burns up the earth and destroys all unbelievers with "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

If you say so.

 

[CrowCross]

The souls of the dead in Christ.

1 Thessalonian 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Who are the elect in the four winds?

 

[amigo de christo]

What happened right after Noah and Lot were removed? Everyone else all were killed. Jesus said that is what will happen when He comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30). You ignore that and think there will be mortal survivors when He comes. There will not.


No, you get it wrong when you say there will be unbelievers who are allowed to survive when Jesus comes. Many scriptures teach otherwise.

Have you seen ...............
i say again have you seen what it is they put their hope and trust in and are being led too .
GO to and behold the great evil of the ecuminecal interfaith peace plan .
THAT is what they are being led too as the men they so trust in is leading them all right into .
Evil has been on the rise , inquity has blossomed
and by means of smooth talkers ,
and by means of even many in wool , they have led and convinced this people
of another love and another god all together .
And now it merges them all , more and more into the web of the love of a harlot
who has spun every diverse web to reach any diverse group
TO come to the center of this web and to sit under the spinner of this web .
IT has spun lies unto them all , but cloaked as love , as tolerance
IT has spun a web to any group , to include christendom .
And it all leads to the center of that web . whereon and whereupon sits a well favored harlot
by her father the dragon , the dragon who has done all and is doing all
to convince them all , this is the web , it is the broad and diverse path to GOD and will lead them
all to mindset IT IS GOD and IT IS HIS PLAN for to attain world peace .
To a mulsim it simply came claoked as though it was of that religoin
to a buddist the same
To a baptist , methodist , whatever its , IT came as though it was of them
TO eventually have them ALL MERGE as oNE MAN , ONE HEART , ONE GOAL .
One man under the dragon , with one heart to do its will , and one goal , TO RAGE WAR
against all who kept the commandments of GOD and the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIS T.
IT has always raged wars against the saints . But in this LASt hour
has gathered THE WORLD and its religoins , created and made ready a digital system by whihc
to enforce the will of this inclusive god , And it will RAGE war against the saints in the days ahead .
Fear it not . CHRIST has his sheep and shall be with us even in prison and even at the hour of
the death of this body . THE GREAT KING of kings has always been with HIS OWN .
As he was with james who would be beheaded , as HE was with paul and silas EVEN IN PRISON .
HE will be with the sheep as he has been through all generations .
And the cry is , BE ye faithful even unto death . TO the trenches one and all .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who are the elect in the four winds?

Read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The elect from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ and the elect from earth are the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain. This is not hard to understand.

 

[David in NJ]

He is not. Let's move on from him.

Agree

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is no 7 year tribulation. The Church is NOT in the ark 7 days before the flood.

There only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. Time, Times and half a time.

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

You and I are about 100 miles apart on the 7 yr trib.
In one breath you deny it, then you claim half of the 7 yrs is past.
No sir it is definately 7 years as stated in Daniel and the TEMPLE IS DESCECRATED MIDWAY.
Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(The 7 yr trib)
3.5 years into it he desecrates the temple.
He is the white horse rider.

 

[CrowCross]

Read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The elect from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ and the elect from earth are the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain. This is not hard to understand.

Those who are alive and remain are the christians who have not died and therefore will not be rejoining with their spirits coming with Jesus from heaven.

Will the spirits coming back with Jesus be riding white horses?

 

[rockytopva]

Jesus returns twice...

1. To meet up with us in the clouds
2. To return to earth to reign a thousand years

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - Revelation 19:11

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus returns twice...

1. To meet up with us in the clouds
2. To return to earth to reign a thousand years

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. - Revelation 19:11

Exactly.

Acts 1 says Jesus will return like He left. ..... 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

In Rev 19 Jesus returns on a white horse...
In the 1 Thes 4:16-17 return there is no white horse.

As you correctly said....Jesus returns twice.