A Biblical Lesson on Spiritual Discernment

[covenantee]

Seriously, Jesus Christ as Commander in chief of Roman army? Thanks for a good laugh for the day.

Your warped interpretation begins with an assumption that "Jerusalem" in the Olivet Discourse must mean the physical city in the Middle East in 70AD. But that assumption needs to be proven from Scripture, not simply asserted.

The New Testament repeatedly shows that the physical Jerusalem was a shadow pointing to a greater spiritual reality. Paul contrasts the earthly Jerusalem with the Jerusalem above:

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." (Galatians 4:26)

The apostles also identify the people of God—not a physical building—as God's temple:

"You are God's temple and God's Spirit dwells in you." (1 Corinthians 3:16)

"You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house." (1 Peter 2:5)

Therefore, when Christ speaks prophetically about Jerusalem, the temple, and desolation, the question must be asked: Is He referring to earthly geography, or is He using the covenant language of Scripture to describe His New Testament congregation prior to the Second Coming?

The Olivet Discourse is directed to Christ's disciples and concerns the signs preceding His coming, which is clearly at the end of the age:

"What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:3)

The focus is not merely a past historical event but the spiritual conflict that continues until the consummation.

The danger Christ warns about is not simply an invading army. He repeatedly warns about spiritual deception. Read carefully:

"Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray." (Matthew 24:5)

"False christs and false prophets will arise..." (Matthew 24:24)

They are the armies that is surrounding the spiritual Judea and Jerusalem which is the CHURCH!

The abomination of desolation inside the church all over the world is therefore connected to the corruption and desecration of God's true dwelling place...by the false prophets and christs per context of the Olivet discourse — not merely physical stones of a building by your precious Roman armies.

You haven't yet provided your gnosticized spiritual rationale for the following verse.

Try to crawl before you try to walk.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into the body of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 

[covenantee]

Seriously, Jesus Christ as Commander in chief of Roman army? Thanks for a good laugh for the day.

Roman commander Titus: "We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war, and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications; for what could the hands of men or any machines do towards overthrowing these towers?"

Titus, the pagan Roman commander, waaaaaaay smarter than any gnostic.

Laugh on.

 

[rwb]

God inspired Luke to provide the synoptic interpretation of Matthew and Mark, as well as the interpretation of Daniel, for those willing to recognize and accept it. That, of course, does not include gnostic futurists, who would have remained at home and been crucified.

What are you talking about? This is assumption without any biblical verification. Luke makes no mention of Daniel, so how can he provide the synoptic interpretation of Matthew and Mark as well as interpreting Daniel. It's hard to provide a general summary when you leave out that which was spoken by the prophet Daniel.

Are you implying that you view my doctrine as a gnostic futurist? Perhaps you could be defined a futurist because you push fulfillment for AOD 40 years into the future???

Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

If all is spiritual, then please provide your spiritual definition for each of the following. Ensure that you don't miss any:
1. Judaea
2. flee
3. mountains
4. housetop
5. house
6. field
7. clothes
8. woe
9. child
10. suck
11. days
12. flight
13. winter
14. sabbath
15. day

When did I say, "all is spiritual" and must be spiritually discerned?

It appears you want to change the discussion from the AOD because you cannot give an adequate answer for that which was spoken by the prophet Daniel. Since you have yet to show how the crux of the discourse hinges on our understanding of the AOD spoken by the prophet Daniel, I'm sorry, but I'm not yet ready to move on.

 

[rwb]

This does not address what I said at all. When the disciples asked "When shall these things be"? what exactly do you think they were asking with that question? And what do you believe spawned that question?

I can't help it if you can't understand how the AOD spoken by the prophet Daniel is the key given by Christ.

 

[WPM]

Preterits always consider the words of Luke without giving any consideration to what is written in both Matthew and Mark. That's because the Preterit does not build his doctrine FROM the Bible, but using fulfilled history tries to fit what he believes is fulfillment INTO the Bible.

No! Preterists, Idealists and Historists all agree on this. You, TS and the Gnostics are in disagreement. Telling!

 

[WPM]

What are you talking about? This is assumption without any biblical verification. Luke makes no mention of Daniel, so how can he provide the synoptic interpretation of Matthew and Mark as well as interpreting Daniel. It's hard to provide a general summary when you leave out that which was spoken by the prophet Daniel.

Are you implying that you view my doctrine as a gnostic futurist? Perhaps you could be defined a futurist because you push fulfillment for AOD 40 years into the future???


When did I say, "all is spiritual" and must be spiritually discerned?

It appears you want to change the discussion from the AOD because you cannot give an adequate answer for that which was spoken by the prophet Daniel. Since you have yet to show how the crux of the discourse hinges on our understanding of the AOD spoken by the prophet Daniel, I'm sorry, but I'm not yet ready to move on.

Answer his questions. Stop avoiding.

 

[covenantee]

When did I say, "all is spiritual" and must be spiritually discerned?

So identify for us which of the following are spiritual and which are physical:

1. Judaea
2. flee
3. mountains
4. housetop
5. house
6. field
7. clothes
8. woe
9. child
10. suck
11. days
12. flight
13. winter
14. sabbath
15. day

 

[TribulationSigns]

So identify for us which of the following are spiritual and which are physical:

1. Judaea
2. flee
3. mountains
4. housetop
5. house
6. field
7. clothes
8. woe
9. child
10. suck
11. days
12. flight
13. winter
14. sabbath
15. day

Please allow me and enjoy your popcorn, RWB.

Covenantee...your question assumes these terms must all be understood literally. Nope! Throughout Scripture, God uses physical places, objects, and events to represent spiritual realities. Jesus frequently taught this way (John 6:63), and the New Testament often interprets Old Testament language spiritually (Galatians 4:24–26; Hebrews 12:22–24). Here is how I understand these terms:

1. Judaea – Symbolically represents the visible New Testament congregation (the church), just as Jerusalem and Zion often represent God's covenant people (Hebrews 12:22–24; Galatians 4:26; 1 Peter 2:9–10).

2. Flee – To depart from an apostate congregation after God's judgment has come upon it. This parallels God's command, "Come out of her, my people" (Revelation 18:4; 2 Corinthians 6:17).

3. Mountains – The Kingdom of God, God's place of refuge. Throughout Scripture, God's holy mountain represents His kingdom and His dwelling with His people (Isaiah 2:2–3; Micah 4:1–2; Hebrews 12:22). Believers flee to Christ and His true kingdom wherever the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed. If there is no faithful church to attend to, worship christ at your home, restaurant, etc. with same minded believers during the darkest hour when the church is under judgment, knowing that His coming is near.

4. Housetop – The place from which God's truth is openly proclaimed. Jesus said, "What ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops" (Matthew 10:27). Selah!

5. House – The visible church or congregation, which Scripture repeatedly calls the house of God (1 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 3:6; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Field – The world, particularly the mission field where God's servants labor in the Gospel. Jesus Himself identifies "the field" as "the world" (Matthew 13:38; Matthew 9:37–38).

7. Clothes – The garments of Christ's righteousness (Isaiah 61:10; Revelation 19:8). The warning not to return for one's clothes signifies not returning to an apostate church once God has removed the Gospel and the day of salvation there has ended.

8. Woe – God's judgment upon His covenant people, the false prophets and christs, just as Jesus repeatedly pronounced "woe" upon the unfaithful religious leaders and Jerusalem (Matthew 23; Luke 21:23).

9. Child – The children within the visible congregation, especially those who have not yet been sealed by God before His judgment falls (Revelation 7:1–4; Revelation 9:4).

10. Suck – A picture of spiritual nourishment. The woman represents the covenant community, but during God's judgment there is a spiritual famine in which the children can no longer suck the sincere milk of the Word (Amos 8:11–12; 1 Peter 2:2). Selah!

11. Days – The appointed period of God's judgment upon the visible church (Matthew 24:22; Luke 21:22), right prior to His Second Coming.

12. Flight – The same spiritual command as "flee": depart from the desolate congregation under God's judgment (Revelation 18:4).

13. Winter – A picture of the end of the harvest season. The spiritual harvest of salvation has ended, leaving only winter—a time when the gathering of God's elect is complete (Proverbs 10:5; Jeremiah 8:20; John 4:35–38).

14. Sabbath – The spiritual rest that comes when God's work of gathering all His elect is complete. The Sabbath always pointed to rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3–11; Colossians 2:16–17). When the Great Commission has accomplished God's purpose and no more elect remain to be gathered, "the night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4). This is not referring to the Jewish Sabbath observed in A.D. 70 as you think!

15. Day – The Day of God's visitation and judgment, when Christ comes to judge His NEW TESTAMENT HOUSE for faithfulness (1 Peter 4:17; Luke 17:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7–10). Just like Christ did with the Old Testament congregation at the Cross!

The real question is not whether these words have literal meanings—they do. The question is whether Jesus is using them prophetically to describe spiritual realities. The rest of Scripture repeatedly shows that He does. The New Testament consistently interprets Old Testament places, institutions, and events as types and shadows pointing to Christ, His Kingdom, and His Church (Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 10:1; Galatians 4:24–26).

How's that for spiritual discernment by comparing Scripture with Scripture?

Selah!
@rwb

 

[WPM]

Please allow me and enjoy your popcorn, RWB.

Covenantee...your question assumes these terms must all be understood literally. Nope! Throughout Scripture, God uses physical places, objects, and events to represent spiritual realities. Jesus frequently taught this way (John 6:63), and the New Testament often interprets Old Testament language spiritually (Galatians 4:24–26; Hebrews 12:22–24). Here is how I understand these terms:

1. Judaea – Symbolically represents the visible New Testament congregation (the church), just as Jerusalem and Zion often represent God's covenant people (Hebrews 12:22–24; Galatians 4:26; 1 Peter 2:9–10).

2. Flee – To depart from an apostate congregation after God's judgment has come upon it. This parallels God's command, "Come out of her, my people" (Revelation 18:4; 2 Corinthians 6:17).

3. Mountains – The Kingdom of God, God's place of refuge. Throughout Scripture, God's holy mountain represents His kingdom and His dwelling with His people (Isaiah 2:2–3; Micah 4:1–2; Hebrews 12:22). Believers flee to Christ and His true kingdom wherever the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed. If there is no faithful church to attend to, worship christ at your home, restaurant, etc. with same minded believers during the darkest hour when the church is under judgment, knowing that His coming is near.

4. Housetop – The place from which God's truth is openly proclaimed. Jesus said, "What ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops" (Matthew 10:27). Selah!

5. House – The visible church or congregation, which Scripture repeatedly calls the house of God (1 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 3:6; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Field – The world, particularly the mission field where God's servants labor in the Gospel. Jesus Himself identifies "the field" as "the world" (Matthew 13:38; Matthew 9:37–38).

7. Clothes – The garments of Christ's righteousness (Isaiah 61:10; Revelation 19:8). The warning not to return for one's clothes signifies not returning to an apostate church once God has removed the Gospel and the day of salvation there has ended.

8. Woe – God's judgment upon His covenant people, the false prophets and christs, just as Jesus repeatedly pronounced "woe" upon the unfaithful religious leaders and Jerusalem (Matthew 23; Luke 21:23).

9. Child – The children within the visible congregation, especially those who have not yet been sealed by God before His judgment falls (Revelation 7:1–4; Revelation 9:4).

10. Suck – A picture of spiritual nourishment. The woman represents the covenant community, but during God's judgment there is a spiritual famine in which the children can no longer suck the sincere milk of the Word (Amos 8:11–12; 1 Peter 2:2). Selah!

11. Days – The appointed period of God's judgment upon the visible church (Matthew 24:22; Luke 21:22), right prior to His Second Coming.

12. Flight – The same spiritual command as "flee": depart from the desolate congregation under God's judgment (Revelation 18:4).

13. Winter – A picture of the end of the harvest season. The spiritual harvest of salvation has ended, leaving only winter—a time when the gathering of God's elect is complete (Proverbs 10:5; Jeremiah 8:20; John 4:35–38).

14. Sabbath – The spiritual rest that comes when God's work of gathering all His elect is complete. The Sabbath always pointed to rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3–11; Colossians 2:16–17). When the Great Commission has accomplished God's purpose and no more elect remain to be gathered, "the night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4). This is not referring to the Jewish Sabbath observed in A.D. 70 as you think!

15. Day – The Day of God's visitation and judgment, when Christ comes to judge His NEW TESTAMENT HOUSE for faithfulness (1 Peter 4:17; Luke 17:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7–10). Just like Christ did with the Old Testament congregation at the Cross!

The real question is not whether these words have literal meanings—they do. The question is whether Jesus is using them prophetically to describe spiritual realities. The rest of Scripture repeatedly shows that He does. The New Testament consistently interprets Old Testament places, institutions, and events as types and shadows pointing to Christ, His Kingdom, and His Church (Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 10:1; Galatians 4:24–26).

How's that for spiritual discernment by comparing Scripture with Scripture?

Selah!
@rwb

LOL. What a load of baloney. You twist the Word to match your imaginations.

 

[WPM]

Please allow me and enjoy your popcorn, RWB.

Covenantee...your question assumes these terms must all be understood literally. Nope! Throughout Scripture, God uses physical places, objects, and events to represent spiritual realities. Jesus frequently taught this way (John 6:63), and the New Testament often interprets Old Testament language spiritually (Galatians 4:24–26; Hebrews 12:22–24). Here is how I understand these terms:

1. Judaea – Symbolically represents the visible New Testament congregation (the church), just as Jerusalem and Zion often represent God's covenant people (Hebrews 12:22–24; Galatians 4:26; 1 Peter 2:9–10).

2. Flee – To depart from an apostate congregation after God's judgment has come upon it. This parallels God's command, "Come out of her, my people" (Revelation 18:4; 2 Corinthians 6:17).

3. Mountains – The Kingdom of God, God's place of refuge. Throughout Scripture, God's holy mountain represents His kingdom and His dwelling with His people (Isaiah 2:2–3; Micah 4:1–2; Hebrews 12:22). Believers flee to Christ and His true kingdom wherever the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed. If there is no faithful church to attend to, worship christ at your home, restaurant, etc. with same minded believers during the darkest hour when the church is under judgment, knowing that His coming is near.

4. Housetop – The place from which God's truth is openly proclaimed. Jesus said, "What ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops" (Matthew 10:27). Selah!

5. House – The visible church or congregation, which Scripture repeatedly calls the house of God (1 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 3:6; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Field – The world, particularly the mission field where God's servants labor in the Gospel. Jesus Himself identifies "the field" as "the world" (Matthew 13:38; Matthew 9:37–38).

7. Clothes – The garments of Christ's righteousness (Isaiah 61:10; Revelation 19:8). The warning not to return for one's clothes signifies not returning to an apostate church once God has removed the Gospel and the day of salvation there has ended.

8. Woe – God's judgment upon His covenant people, the false prophets and christs, just as Jesus repeatedly pronounced "woe" upon the unfaithful religious leaders and Jerusalem (Matthew 23; Luke 21:23).

9. Child – The children within the visible congregation, especially those who have not yet been sealed by God before His judgment falls (Revelation 7:1–4; Revelation 9:4).

10. Suck – A picture of spiritual nourishment. The woman represents the covenant community, but during God's judgment there is a spiritual famine in which the children can no longer suck the sincere milk of the Word (Amos 8:11–12; 1 Peter 2:2). Selah!

11. Days – The appointed period of God's judgment upon the visible church (Matthew 24:22; Luke 21:22), right prior to His Second Coming.

12. Flight – The same spiritual command as "flee": depart from the desolate congregation under God's judgment (Revelation 18:4).

13. Winter – A picture of the end of the harvest season. The spiritual harvest of salvation has ended, leaving only winter—a time when the gathering of God's elect is complete (Proverbs 10:5; Jeremiah 8:20; John 4:35–38).

14. Sabbath – The spiritual rest that comes when God's work of gathering all His elect is complete. The Sabbath always pointed to rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3–11; Colossians 2:16–17). When the Great Commission has accomplished God's purpose and no more elect remain to be gathered, "the night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4). This is not referring to the Jewish Sabbath observed in A.D. 70 as you think!

15. Day – The Day of God's visitation and judgment, when Christ comes to judge His NEW TESTAMENT HOUSE for faithfulness (1 Peter 4:17; Luke 17:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7–10). Just like Christ did with the Old Testament congregation at the Cross!

The real question is not whether these words have literal meanings—they do. The question is whether Jesus is using them prophetically to describe spiritual realities. The rest of Scripture repeatedly shows that He does. The New Testament consistently interprets Old Testament places, institutions, and events as types and shadows pointing to Christ, His Kingdom, and His Church (Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 10:1; Galatians 4:24–26).

How's that for spiritual discernment by comparing Scripture with Scripture?

Selah!
@rwb

You are of touch with reality. Whatever people are in view in whatever location (the Bible says Jerusalem and Judea not Johannesburg or Jaffa), they are limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day” (Saturday). This certainly isn't a restriction to American Christians, maybe Israeli ones. Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one fleeing the great tribulation? Simple. Because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. At the time of Jesus the Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath; therefore flight from the city on that day would have been extremely difficult. Simply put: they would be severely limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day.”

How can you seriously relate such a restriction (1) to the Church and (2) the period preceding "the end of the age"? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.

It was Israel’s wanton rejection of Messiah that drew this widespread devastation upon the land. The Jewish people are clearly the recipients of this great judgment, which is similarly described in the respective readings as the “wrath,” “vengeance” and “tribulation great” of God. But why such vengeance? Because the Jewish nation had finally rejected God’s only provision for sin and uncleanness – their Messiah – by crucifying Him. It was now time for God to punish them with His “wrath” for this great iniquitous transgression. Christ was speaking to a company of Christ-rejecting inhabitants of Jerusalem, and a "generation" nearly 2,000 years ago, which would witness this tribulation great. However, it was to be the vengeance and wrath of God, not an end-time antichrist. Nowhere did Christ say that the aforementioned tribulation great would be global.

Also, worth noting, the fact that Christ advances three particular types of situation that would prove restrictive to anyone fleeing the described destruction. Firstly, a woman laden down with the burden and responsibility of a weaning child; understandably she would be physically hampered in her escape. Secondly, fleeing during the winter season, obviously because the elements would have proved an undoubted restriction to Jews 2,000 years ago. Winter conditions in ancient days would have been a real issue then but not for us in our modern civilization. The poorest saints today have access to able vehicles that are well-maintained and well-heated. However, flight during winter would have been a real restriction for early Church saints. Thirdly, fleeing “on the sabbath day.” Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one escaping the great tribulation? Simple, because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. This was a religious rule that enjoyed no scriptural foundation. The Jews would be snared with their own limitation. How can the Futurists serious relate such a restriction to a post-secret rapture tribulation? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.

Luke’s account of this great tribulation limits this great tribulation to “the land” (singular) as in Israel, not many lands (plural) as some would have us believe. He also shows how the wrath will be reserved for “this people” who possess the land – namely the Jews. He explains how these Jews shall “fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” The wordings of these texts make it impossible for it to be a worldwide end-time tribulation.

Also, in carefully comparing these three accounts, with their related expressions, which describe the one identical event, we note some very vital information. Speaking of the same situation, all three writers say, “when ye see” a certain thing appear “then” that is your sign to “flee.” What was that thing? Matthew and Mark describe that sign as “the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Notwithstanding, they then both proceed to situate that abomination of desolation, using slightly differing terminology, “in the holy place” (Matthew 24:15) and “where it ought not” (Mark 13:14).

 

[WPM]

Please allow me and enjoy your popcorn, RWB.

Covenantee...your question assumes these terms must all be understood literally. Nope! Throughout Scripture, God uses physical places, objects, and events to represent spiritual realities. Jesus frequently taught this way (John 6:63), and the New Testament often interprets Old Testament language spiritually (Galatians 4:24–26; Hebrews 12:22–24). Here is how I understand these terms:

1. Judaea – Symbolically represents the visible New Testament congregation (the church), just as Jerusalem and Zion often represent God's covenant people (Hebrews 12:22–24; Galatians 4:26; 1 Peter 2:9–10).

2. Flee – To depart from an apostate congregation after God's judgment has come upon it. This parallels God's command, "Come out of her, my people" (Revelation 18:4; 2 Corinthians 6:17).

3. Mountains – The Kingdom of God, God's place of refuge. Throughout Scripture, God's holy mountain represents His kingdom and His dwelling with His people (Isaiah 2:2–3; Micah 4:1–2; Hebrews 12:22). Believers flee to Christ and His true kingdom wherever the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed. If there is no faithful church to attend to, worship christ at your home, restaurant, etc. with same minded believers during the darkest hour when the church is under judgment, knowing that His coming is near.

4. Housetop – The place from which God's truth is openly proclaimed. Jesus said, "What ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops" (Matthew 10:27). Selah!

5. House – The visible church or congregation, which Scripture repeatedly calls the house of God (1 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 3:6; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Field – The world, particularly the mission field where God's servants labor in the Gospel. Jesus Himself identifies "the field" as "the world" (Matthew 13:38; Matthew 9:37–38).

7. Clothes – The garments of Christ's righteousness (Isaiah 61:10; Revelation 19:8). The warning not to return for one's clothes signifies not returning to an apostate church once God has removed the Gospel and the day of salvation there has ended.

8. Woe – God's judgment upon His covenant people, the false prophets and christs, just as Jesus repeatedly pronounced "woe" upon the unfaithful religious leaders and Jerusalem (Matthew 23; Luke 21:23).

9. Child – The children within the visible congregation, especially those who have not yet been sealed by God before His judgment falls (Revelation 7:1–4; Revelation 9:4).

10. Suck – A picture of spiritual nourishment. The woman represents the covenant community, but during God's judgment there is a spiritual famine in which the children can no longer suck the sincere milk of the Word (Amos 8:11–12; 1 Peter 2:2). Selah!

11. Days – The appointed period of God's judgment upon the visible church (Matthew 24:22; Luke 21:22), right prior to His Second Coming.

12. Flight – The same spiritual command as "flee": depart from the desolate congregation under God's judgment (Revelation 18:4).

13. Winter – A picture of the end of the harvest season. The spiritual harvest of salvation has ended, leaving only winter—a time when the gathering of God's elect is complete (Proverbs 10:5; Jeremiah 8:20; John 4:35–38).

14. Sabbath – The spiritual rest that comes when God's work of gathering all His elect is complete. The Sabbath always pointed to rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3–11; Colossians 2:16–17). When the Great Commission has accomplished God's purpose and no more elect remain to be gathered, "the night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4). This is not referring to the Jewish Sabbath observed in A.D. 70 as you think!

15. Day – The Day of God's visitation and judgment, when Christ comes to judge His NEW TESTAMENT HOUSE for faithfulness (1 Peter 4:17; Luke 17:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7–10). Just like Christ did with the Old Testament congregation at the Cross!

The real question is not whether these words have literal meanings—they do. The question is whether Jesus is using them prophetically to describe spiritual realities. The rest of Scripture repeatedly shows that He does. The New Testament consistently interprets Old Testament places, institutions, and events as types and shadows pointing to Christ, His Kingdom, and His Church (Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 10:1; Galatians 4:24–26).

How's that for spiritual discernment by comparing Scripture with Scripture?

Selah!
@rwb

Matthew 24:15: "When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14-19 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains."

Dr. Luke is more specific, and seems to identify both the warning that would appear, and the location (or holy place) where it would appear. He states, “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” After identifying this, he then declares, in near identical language to the other two accounts, “Then let them which are in Judaea flee.” Plainly, the appearance of the sign is the actual signal that the Lord gives to occasion the escape from Jerusalem. We must therefore assume, from this corresponding accounts, that the appearance of the desolater, which was to be the actual signal to flee, was the “compassed” or circling invading heathen Roman armies, which had come to specially destroy the city, and that the “holy place” is the actual city of Jerusalem, or the temple therein.

The only thing that would push us away from the idea that the temple was the actual holy place described is that Luke just simply mentions Jerusalem. Also, one would image that if an invading army had advanced as far as the temple, in the centre of Jerusalem, then it would be far too late for to flee. Surely the harmony and correlation between these three passages, including the unquestionable restricting of the persecution to Jerusalem and the Jewish people makes this a profound historic record of God’s wrath upon the Jewish nation for their rejection of Messiah and the continuation of the then abolished sacrifices.

The command to flee was taken up by the believing Jews who indeed acted upon the Lord's counsel and therefore escaped this judgment of the Lord. They were consequently able to take the Gospel out throughout the Middle East. I don't know how you can't see this. Maybe you don't want to see it?

The Re-dispersion Of The Jews

The text plainly declares, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Does the futurist honestly believe that their end-time great tribulation period, which they contend directly precedes the second coming, is going to see the re-dispersion of the Jews to all nations again? Luke 21:22-24 indicates, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword.” What land? Natural Israel. What people? The Jews. What shall befall them? Those that are not slain “shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

(1) Surely we are now in “the times of the Gentiles”? If this is the case then the tribulation in view in our discussion must assuredly be an historic event, not a future hope.
(2) Do you believe that Israel will be "led away captive into all nations" after the second coming then?

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. What a load of baloney. You twist the Word to match your imaginations.

Say a natural man. The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that!

Listen dude...

Calling it "baloney" is not a biblical refutation. Simply dismissing an interpretation does not answer the Scriptures I cited.

"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11).

You have not shown from Scripture that my interpretations are wrong. Instead, you've offered ridicule in place of exegesis. Sounds like what Pharisees said to Christ, eh?

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20).

If you believe my interpretation is false, then demonstrate it from the text as I have said many times! You were not listening very well. So again, show where the Scriptures I cited have been misapplied, and provide a biblical interpretation that harmonizes with the rest of Scripture. Where?

Until then, simply saying "LOL" and calling it "baloney" is not a refutation—it is only an assertion. So the way I see this, your literal 70AD doctrine remained refuted!

 

[WPM]

Say a natural man. The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that!

Listen dude...

Calling it "baloney" is not a biblical refutation. Simply dismissing an interpretation does not answer the Scriptures I cited.

"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11).

You have not shown from Scripture that my interpretations are wrong. Instead, you've offered ridicule in place of exegesis. Sounds like what Pharisees said to Christ, eh?

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20).

If you believe my interpretation is false, then demonstrate it from the text as I have said many times! You are not listening very well. So again, show where the Scriptures I cited have been misapplied, and provide a biblical interpretation that harmonizes with the rest of Scripture. Where?

Until then, simply saying "LOL" and calling it "baloney" is not a refutation—it is only an assertion. So the way I see this, your weak literal 70AD doctrine remained refuted!

LOL. Read the posts that are above this. Hello! Can you not see?

Read the multiple posts on the following thread that biblically refutes your Gnostic nonsense that you or your disciple rwb are incapable of addressing: Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

All you both have is avoidance and name-calling.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. Read the posts that are above this. Hello! Can you not see?

Read the multiple posts on the following thread that biblically refutes your Gnostic nonsense that you or your disciple rwb are incapable of addressing: Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

All you both have is avoidance and name-calling.

Clearly, you're changing the subject.

This thread is about the passages I've presented in OP, yet instead of refuting them, you're directing everyone to an entirely different thread about Satan? That isn't a biblical refutation of anything I've written here.

If my interpretation is wrong, then demonstrate it from the Scriptures discussed in this thread. Show where I mishandled the context, the grammar, or contradicted another passage. Simply saying, "Go read another thread," is not an argument.

Ironically, you accuse me of avoidance while avoiding the biblical case I've laid out here. That's turning the tables without answering the issue.

As for calling my view "Gnostic," repeating a label doesn't make it true. If you believe my interpretation is Gnostic, then identify one Gnostic doctrine that I have actually taught from these passages. Otherwise, it's just another unsupported accusation.

I'm still waiting for a biblical refutation—not labels, not character attacks, and not directions to another thread. Grow up, WPM.

 

[rwb]

So identify for us which of the following are spiritual and which are physical:

1. Judaea
2. flee
3. mountains
4. housetop
5. house
6. field
7. clothes
8. woe
9. child
10. suck
11. days
12. flight
13. winter
14. sabbath
15. day

You left out one thing that you must also identify, the AOD that is mentioned first, is it spiritual or physical? Why does Christ tell us of the AOD "spoken of by Daniel the prophet"?

Why does Mark & Matthew associate fleeing from Judaea to the mountains when understanding the AOD spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

Mark 13:14 (KJV) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Since Luke makes no mention of AOD spoken by the prophet Daniel, but instead say "YE (first century disciples Christ was speaking to) shall see" does this seeing mean with physical sight? Because the Greek word translated into English 'see' is defined from εἴδω eídō - which means - to know.

If Luke is saying they would literally see with physical sight these armies encompassing Jerusalem why isn't 'see' translated from the Greek word ὀπτάνομαι optánomai which is to gaze with eyes wide opened. Instead 'see' is translated from a word that most often means knowing with mental clarity, not necessarily with physical vision.

Luke 21:20 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

For the Preterit this doesn't matter, nor become a question for them. Because their doctrine does not come FROM the Bible but must be read into the Bible from extrabiblical resources of past history.

The Preterit tells us this passage below from Luke describes what happened when the Roman Army (past history) came to destroy the city and temple. But Luke makes no mention of any physical army. He says "thine enemies" will lay THEE even with the ground, and THY children within thee, and not one stone shall be left standing upon another. WHY? Because they had rejected Him "thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." Most interesting with this passage is how the context shows us these words were not spoken to the disciples of Christ. According to Luke Christ was speaking to some of the Pharisees telling THEM what would happen to THEM.

Luke 19:39-40 (KJV) And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:41 (KJV) And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luke 19:42-44 (KJV) Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The Preterit wants us to believe that Christ was speaking to His disciples warning them to flee from Jerusalem forty years after the cross when they would literally see the Roman Army coming. Does the Preterit really believe the disciples of Christ did not know the time of their visitation?

If not for extrabiblical written past historical events, Preterism would never have been forced into the text of Holy Scriptures. Some folks would rather have past history inform their biblical doctrines, then to allow the Bible to inform them while realizing that not everything written in the Bible can be physically defined. Why? Because when Christ came to earth a man, He came with the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God from heaven. That's why the BIBLE tells us there are some things difficult to understand and must be spiritually not physically discerned. Spiritual understanding of some things is not the same as 'mystical' understanding that Gnostics possess.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rwb]

The real question is not whether these words have literal meanings—they do. The question is whether Jesus is using them prophetically to describe spiritual realities. The rest of Scripture repeatedly shows that He does. The New Testament consistently interprets Old Testament places, institutions, and events as types and shadows pointing to Christ, His Kingdom, and His Church (Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 10:1; Galatians 4:24–26).

How's that for spiritual discernment by comparing Scripture with Scripture?

Exactly! The Preterit consistently remains within the Old Covenant prophetic physical world without understanding that when Christ came, He ushered in the Spiritual Kingdom of God from heaven. Just as the physical things of Old Covenant Israel point to spiritual realities once the promised Messiah, the Prince the prophet Daniel foretells has come, now these things like the "holy place" must be spiritually, not physically discerned.

 

[rwb]

Please allow me and enjoy your popcorn, RWB.

Covenantee...your question assumes these terms must all be understood literally. Nope! Throughout Scripture, God uses physical places, objects, and events to represent spiritual realities. Jesus frequently taught this way (John 6:63), and the New Testament often interprets Old Testament language spiritually (Galatians 4:24–26; Hebrews 12:22–24). Here is how I understand these terms:

You make a biblical case for discerning these things (Olivet Discourse) spiritually, I come from a little different point of view. I don't believe the words of Christ can be limited to any one age of time. I believe the words of Christ are applicable for people living in every age/generation/time from the time Christ came to earth a man until the last trumpet begins to sound that time given the church for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all nations of the world shall be no longer.

I believe the only way to rightly understand all that Christ spoke of all that shall come to pass on this earth from the cross to the last/seventh angel beginning to sound speaks of both physical and spiritual fulfillment for all humanity. For example, when the disciples admire the city and temple, Christ plainly tells them that none of these PHYSICAL things will be left standing. The destruction of these physical things of Old will be so complete that not one stone would be left standing upon the other, all would be cast down. The physical destruction must be complete because Christ has come with the New Covenant that is spiritual so that nothing of the Old Covenant shall remain.

Christ tells His disciples they and whosoever reads what is spoken of by Daniel the prophet shall understand. That tells me that nothing that follows is limited to one particular age or nation. Those who read through physical sight read everything in the discourse in a physical sense. But those who read through spiritual sight read everything in the discourse in a spiritual sense. I believe Christ speaks to both.

For instance, Mt 24:4-14 Christ tells His spiritual disciples of every age and nation what they must endure as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached unto all the nations of the world right up to the end of time. All that is described points to physical fulfillment that shall be understood by all who faithfully proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ. The things described have never been limited to any one specific time but have been on-going since the beginning of mankind. "These are the beginning of sorrows" but "the end is not yet."

What Christ next says changes the discussion from things His disciples must physically endure to what shall be spiritually fulfilled, pointing the disciples to what is spoken by the prophet Daniel and whosoever reads. Christ says that AOD shall stand in the holy place. It makes little sense to believe that Christ is speaking of the physical temple in Jerusalem since He just told us that all that is physical shall be utterly destroyed. When we read the prophet Daniel, we learn the first city and temple were destroyed because the people, apostate Jews, had become an abomination unto God that made them utterly desolate. Armed with this information, since the Old shall be gone, never to rise again, the holy place can only be the church, as the New representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

All the other things that Christ mentions will be physically discerned by those who believe Christ has greater concern for what shall come of His ethnic, though apostate Jews. Or spiritually discerned by those who believe Christ warns His disciples of the things coming because the church must endure spiritual warfare throughout her time on this earth as the forces of evil from without and within shall try to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being built and complete when Christ comes again.

 

[Davidpt]

You left out one thing that you must also identify, the AOD that is mentioned first, is it spiritual or physical? Why does Christ tell us of the AOD "spoken of by Daniel the prophet"?

Why does Mark & Matthew associate fleeing from Judaea to the mountains when understanding the AOD spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

Mark 13:14 (KJV) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Since Luke makes no mention of AOD spoken by the prophet Daniel, but instead say "YE (first century disciples Christ was speaking to) shall see" does this seeing mean with physical sight? Because the Greek word translated into English 'see' is defined from εἴδω eídō - which means - to know.

If Luke is saying they would literally see with physical sight these armies encompassing Jerusalem why isn't 'see' translated from the Greek word ὀπτάνομαι optánomai which is to gaze with eyes wide opened. Instead 'see' is translated from a word that most often means knowing with mental clarity, not necessarily with physical vision.

Luke 21:20 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

For the Preterit this doesn't matter, nor become a question for them. Because their doctrine does not come FROM the Bible but must be read into the Bible from extrabiblical resources of past history.

The Preterit tells us this passage below from Luke describes what happened when the Roman Army (past history) came to destroy the city and temple. But Luke makes no mention of any physical army. He says "thine enemies" will lay THEE even with the ground, and THY children within thee, and not one stone shall be left standing upon another. WHY? Because they had rejected Him "thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." Most interesting with this passage is how the context shows us these words were not spoken to the disciples of Christ. According to Luke Christ was speaking to some of the Pharisees telling THEM what would happen to THEM.

Luke 19:39-40 (KJV) And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:41 (KJV) And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luke 19:42-44 (KJV) Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The Preterit wants us to believe that Christ was speaking to His disciples warning them to flee from Jerusalem forty years after the cross when they would literally see the Roman Army coming. Does the Preterit really believe the disciples of Christ did not know the time of their visitation?

If not for extrabiblical written past historical events, Preterism would never have been forced into the text of Holy Scriptures. Some folks would rather have past history inform their biblical doctrines, then to allow the Bible to inform them while realizing that not everything written in the Bible can be physically defined. Why? Because when Christ came to earth a man, He came with the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God from heaven. That's why the BIBLE tells us there are some things difficult to understand and must be spiritually not physically discerned. Spiritual understanding of some things is not the same as 'mystical' understanding that Gnostics possess.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Roger, IMO there is at least a 2000 year gap between Luke 21:20 and the coming meant in verse 27. But in Matthew 24 between verse 15 and 30 there is not this same 2000 year gap. The reason why we know there is this 2000 year gap in Luke 21 is because of verse 24. Therefore, what Luke 21:20 is involving is not what Matthew 24:15-26 is involving. Luke 21:20 should be taken literally but Matthew 24:15-26 shouldn't.

Matthew 24:15-26, IMO, is involving some of the same things 2 Thessalonians 2 is involving and what all that is connected with. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 also mentions a temple, except it's not meaning a literal temple. Yet it is meaning the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15. And what they are to flee from is apostasy(2 Thessalonians 2:3), spiritually speaking.

I'm not even an Amil, yet I apparently have spiritual discernment here that a lot of these Amils in this thread are lacking in this case, meaning pertaining to Matthew 24:15-26, the fact I'm treating these verses spiritually rather than literally. When you would think it should be the other way around.

If these verses in question should be understood spiritually, you would think it would be Amils understanding them in that manner not Premils. Granted, some Amils are understanding it in that manner, yet a lot of Amils aren't. Granted, as well, a lot of Premils are understanding Matthew 24:15-26 in a literal sense also, except a lot of them are applying it to a rebuilt temple in the future. Though, there are some Premils that apply these verses to 70 AD.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


All of these following things literally happened 2000 years ago pertaining to 70 AD---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations

As to verse 20, I can still see it involving 70 AD even when understanding it like such--And when ye shall know(eido) that Jerusalem is compassed with armies, then know(ginosko) that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Jesus used different Greek words in this verse. What is typically translated as see He used 'eido' and for know He used 'ginosko'. In Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, He uses the Greek word 'eido' numerous times, and that He also uses the Greek word 'ginosko' numerous times. But He only uses the Greek word 'optanomai' two times, 1 time actually since both verses are meaning the same event. That being in Matthew 24:30 and Mark 13:26.

 

[rwb]

Roger, IMO there is at least a 2000 year gap between Luke 21:20 and the coming meant in verse 27. But in Matthew 24 between verse 15 and 30 there is not this same 2000 year gap. The reason why we know there is this 2000 year gap in Luke 21 is because of verse 24. Therefore, what Luke 21:20 is involving is not what Matthew 24:15-26 is involving. Luke 21:20 should be taken literally but Matthew 24:15-26 shouldn't.

Matthew 24:15-26, IMO, is involving some of the same things 2 Thessalonians 2 is involving and what all that is connected with. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 also mentions a temple, except it's not meaning a literal temple. Yet it is meaning the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15. And what they are to flee from is apostasy(2 Thessalonians 2:3), spiritually speaking.

I'm not even an Amil, yet I apparently have spiritual discernment here that a lot of these Amils in this thread are lacking in this case, meaning pertaining to Matthew 24:15-26, the fact I'm treating these verses spiritually rather than literally. When you would think it should be the other way around.

If these verses in question should be understood spiritually, you would think it would be Amils understanding them in that manner not Premils. Granted, some Amils are understanding it in that manner, yet a lot of Amils aren't. Granted, as well, a lot of Premils are understanding Matthew 24:15-26 in a literal sense also, except a lot of them are applying it to a rebuilt temple in the future. Though, there are some Premils that apply these verses to 70 AD.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


All of these things literally happened 2000 years ago---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations

As to verse 20, I can still see it involving 70 AD even when understanding it like such--And when ye shall know(eido) that Jerusalem is compassed with armies, then know(ginosko) that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Jesus used different Greek words in this verse. What is typically translated as see He used 'eido' and for know He used 'ginosko'. In Matthew 24 He uses the Greek word 'eido' numerous times, and that He also uses the Greek word 'ginosko' numerous times. But He only uses the Greek word 'optanomai' one time. That being in verse 30.

Greetings David, I hope your wife is feeling better.

The reason is that some who are Amill as far as time (a thousand years) is concerned, are also Preterit when it comes to what shall become of apostate Israel. Since they have embraced the doctrine of Preterism (although in some cases Partial only), embracing Preterism in any manner appears to make them more concerned about what shall become of apostate Israel, which keeps them from spiritually discerning how much of what Christ says applies not to ethnic Jews, but to His church on earth as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is being proclaimed.

Can you explain why you equate time marching on as a gap of 2000 years? I view the Olivet Discourse from Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all speaking of the same thing but framing them slightly differently or from differing points of view, not altogether different views. I do appreciate how you are applying spiritual understanding that is not limited to Amillennialists but is the way much of the Bible should be understood by all believers when speaking of the spiritual reality of the Kingdom of God in heaven.

Quoting you "Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

All of these things literally happened 2000 years ago---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations"

How do you justify saying that ALL literally happened 2000 years ago? Where do we read the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled 2000 years ago? Is Luke writing of what shall befall the physical nation, or is he writing of a spiritual, even holy nation? OR is he referring to both the siege and also Jerusalem from above which has been being trodden down by gentiles (unbelievers) since Christ came with the spiritual Kingdom of God?

 

[covenantee]

The real question is not whether these words have literal meanings—they do.

Thanks for that confirmation.

In Matthew 24, they all had not only literal meanings, but also literal realities.

Did Jesus intend them to be understood literally or symbolically?

E.g. Those in literal Judaea understood Jesus' warning literally, because they fled literally.

Otherwise, they would have perished literally.

?