Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[Lizbeth]

Most people read the bible without any depth of understanding, or ANY understanding at all. Using modern parallels can be very helpful if the person using them DOES UNDERSTAND. That's the difference. While you might cite the bible all day long...that doesn't mean you understand anything. It just means you are repeating what you have learned from men, or what your intellect prefers.

But real teachers can use real examples. An example of this is my using the law of flight overcoming the law of gravity....being the same nature as the law of life in Christ overcoming the law of sin and death...

This is helpful for people who don't understand Paul's liberal use of law to mean many different things.

As someone who actually knows what the bible is speaking of...I can use other examples. But let not many be teachers.


Again, any Protestant or the odd Catholic reading the bible will use their freedom of thought to interpret whatever they prefer into the text. The bible does NOT get the final say...God does. Only the Spirit knows the truth. And very few people have anything but a little taste of that.


Repentance first...doing the same thing with more feeling won't help.

Being grateful for something and naming and claiming something based on that something is VERY different, unless one lives for the ego and by the ego. Then, these may amount to the same thing.

Speaking of understanding, I wonder how many understand this? That faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. And that though all things have been put under the feet of Jesus , we do not yet (necessarily) see all things put under His feet.

There is a difference between "name it and claim it" and genuine faith to be sure........however there certainly is such a thing as genuine faith as described above, and I believe true men of God are co-helpers of our faith, not destroyers or discouragers of it.

 

[Episkopos]

Speaking of understanding, I wonder how many understand this? That faith is the substance of things hoped for

Faith as a substance is not the same as faith as an ideology. Faith and beliefs are incompatible. There is no substance to a belief...it is unsubstantial by nature, meaning there is only the opinion or belief of the one with the imagination. No substance there. Faith on the other hand comes with God's confirmation...a translation, a visitation, a spiritual gift etc That's how we know we have faith and not beliefs....God's intervention. Faith unleashes grace and a miraculous penetration into the eternal realm.

All beliefs do is fool the person into believing a fable. And if you read the bible carefully, you will see that imagination and beliefs are frowned upon. Since there is real power available by grace through faith.

and the evidence of things not seen.

Evidence is not the same as speculation. Evidence at a trial is not a theory...it is something tangible for all who are shown it. Beliefs are not admissible as evidence. The unseen world of the kingdom is experienced through translation into the reality where it exists in parallel with this temporal simulation that hides the truth from those who trust their senses and have no actual faith. When a person walks in the power of Christ that person SEES the kingdom, experiences kingdom life. Faith SEES. Beliefs are just opinions that divide the church into thousands of ideological constructs invented by wishful thinkers.

There is no POWER in a fable but to deceive a person into thinking they are something that they are not. The irony is that a true faith recognizes the LACK of said power, hopefully in such a way so as to cause a deep repentance and seeking God's face for it.

And that though all things have been put under the feet of Jesus , we do not yet (necessarily) see all things put under His feet.

This is a separate issue that involves history. We live as individuals not as historic timelines.

There is a difference between "name it and claim it" and genuine faith to be sure........however there certainly is such a thing as genuine faith as described above, and I believe true men of God are co-helpers of our faith, not destroyers or discouragers of it.

The first principle of spiritual warfare is to cast down imaginations and every thought that exalts itself APART from an actual empowerment by God. There is a HUGE difference between a belief about something and a living testimony of that something.

But a modern Pharisee will remain blind to the truth no matter how much he/she tries to justify what is not life-giving...but rather death-dealing together with a sure condemnation on judgment day.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Faith as a substance is not the same as faith as an ideology. Faith and beliefs are incompatible. There is no substance to a belief...it is unsubstantial by nature, meaning there is only the opinion or belief of the one with the imagination. No substance there. Faith on the other hand comes with God's confirmation...a translation, a visitation, a spiritual gift etc That's how we know we have faith and not beliefs....God's intervention. Faith unleashes grace and a miraculous penetration into the eternal realm.

All beliefs do is fool the person into believing a fable. And if you read the bible carefully, you will see that imagination and beliefs are frowned upon. Since there is real power available by grace through faith.


Evidence is not the same as speculation. Evidence at a trial is not a theory...it is something tangible for all who are shown it. Beliefs are not admissible as evidence. The unseen world of the kingdom is experienced through translation into the reality where it exists in parallel with this temporal simulation that hides the truth from those who trust their senses and have no actual faith. When a person walks in the power of Christ that person SEES the kingdom, experiences kingdom life. Faith SEES. Beliefs are just opinions that divide the church into thousands of ideological constructs invented by wishful thinkers.

There is no POWER in a fable but to deceive a person into thinking they are something that they are not. The irony is that a true faith recognizes the LACK of said power, hopefully in such a way so as to cause a deep repentance and seeking God's face for it.


This is a separate issue that involves history. We live as individuals not as historic timelines.

The first principle of spiritual warfare is to cast down imaginations and every thought that exalts itself APART from an actual empowerment by God. There is a HUGE difference between a belief about something and a living testimony of that something.

But a modern Pharisee will remain blind to the truth no matter how much he/she tries to justify what is not life-giving...but rather death-dealing together with a sure condemnation on judgment day.

Do you think that when we become sick to death enough of ourselves harassing ourselves and we surrender/put ourselves willingly under His feet, we DO begin to then see that all things ARE put under His feet? (As in: no, leave the man alone - if He is throwing rocks at me it is because God told Him to or allowed Him to and has not told me what He is doing in this).

 

[Episkopos]

Do you think that when we become sick to death enough of ourselves harassing ourselves and we surrender/put ourselves willingly under His feet, we DO begin to then see that all things ARE put under His feet?

Amen. At this time we can do it willingly...or we will be forced to when the Lord returns. He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. I am convinced that no balance is possible in any human institution that calls itself "church". It is all hubris and Phariseeism...Babylon. Do as they say not as they do.... and doing is righteousness. So we have a modern church that rails against both holiness AND righteousness, being neither hot nor cold.

(As in: no, leave the man alone - if He is throwing rocks at me it is because God told Him to or allowed Him to and has not told me what He is doing in this).

The heart of David, yes. :)

 

[Lizbeth]

Faith as a substance is not the same as faith as an ideology. Faith and beliefs are incompatible. There is no substance to a belief...it is unsubstantial by nature, meaning there is only the opinion or belief of the one with the imagination. No substance there. Faith on the other hand comes with God's confirmation...a translation, a visitation, a spiritual gift etc That's how we know we have faith and not beliefs....God's intervention. Faith unleashes grace and a miraculous penetration into the eternal realm.

All beliefs do is fool the person into believing a fable. And if you read the bible carefully, you will see that imagination and beliefs are frowned upon. Since there is real power available by grace through faith.


Evidence is not the same as speculation. Evidence at a trial is not a theory...it is something tangible for all who are shown it. Beliefs are not admissible as evidence. The unseen world of the kingdom is experienced through translation into the reality where it exists in parallel with this temporal simulation that hides the truth from those who trust their senses and have no actual faith. When a person walks in the power of Christ that person SEES the kingdom, experiences kingdom life. Faith SEES. Beliefs are just opinions that divide the church into thousands of ideological constructs invented by wishful thinkers.

There is no POWER in a fable but to deceive a person into thinking they are something that they are not. The irony is that a true faith recognizes the LACK of said power, hopefully in such a way so as to cause a deep repentance and seeking God's face for it.


This is a separate issue that involves history. We live as individuals not as historic timelines.

The first principle of spiritual warfare is to cast down imaginations and every thought that exalts itself APART from an actual empowerment by God. There is a HUGE difference between a belief about something and a living testimony of that something.

But a modern Pharisee will remain blind to the truth no matter how much he/she tries to justify what is not life-giving...but rather death-dealing together with a sure condemnation on judgment day.

The scripture says that faith IS the evidence. And faith IS the substance. Of things not yet manifested but hoped for. We are to walk by faith, not by sight. You don't seem to be understanding what those verses are saying. God called Abraham the father of many nations.......long before it came to be, and Abraham believed God even though it looked impossible. It is the LORD who calls those things which be not as though they are.

But I agree we need to know whether something is actually manifesting yet or not, or whether we are walking in the promise yet or not etc. But as far as God is concerned it is a done deal......it is done in heaven and we are to pray that it will be done also on earth, in us....that we will apprehend, get hold of, bring down to our earthen vessel, what Jesus has already accomplished for us. When our eyes are on ourselves it looks impossible, Lord how can this be when I'm this or that (faults, shortcomings, weaknesses, fears etc).....but we need to lift our eyes higher and see Jesus and what He has done for us, by faith. I dont' like the term "positional", because I believe it is more than that as far as heaven is concerned......it is the actual state of our new man, if we would only live by it/Him...no longer "I" who live but Christ. I think the real lie is to believe that our old man is still alive ....because the truth as far as heaven is concerned is that he/it has been crucified with Christ.

 

[shepherdsword]

Faith as a substance is not the same as faith as an ideology. Faith and beliefs are incompatible. There is no substance to a belief...it is unsubstantial by nature, meaning there is only the opinion or belief of the one with the imagination. No substance there. Faith on the other hand comes with God's confirmation...a translation, a visitation, a spiritual gift etc That's how we know we have faith and not beliefs....God's intervention. Faith unleashes grace and a miraculous penetration into the eternal realm.

All beliefs do is fool the person into believing a fable. And if you read the bible carefully, you will see that imagination and beliefs are frowned upon. Since there is real power available by grace through faith.


Evidence is not the same as speculation. Evidence at a trial is not a theory...it is something tangible for all who are shown it. Beliefs are not admissible as evidence. The unseen world of the kingdom is experienced through translation into the reality where it exists in parallel with this temporal simulation that hides the truth from those who trust their senses and have no actual faith. When a person walks in the power of Christ that person SEES the kingdom, experiences kingdom life. Faith SEES. Beliefs are just opinions that divide the church into thousands of ideological constructs invented by wishful thinkers.

There is no POWER in a fable but to deceive a person into thinking they are something that they are not. The irony is that a true faith recognizes the LACK of said power, hopefully in such a way so as to cause a deep repentance and seeking God's face for it.


This is a separate issue that involves history. We live as individuals not as historic timelines.

The first principle of spiritual warfare is to cast down imaginations and every thought that exalts itself APART from an actual empowerment by God. There is a HUGE difference between a belief about something and a living testimony of that something.

But a modern Pharisee will remain blind to the truth no matter how much he/she tries to justify what is not life-giving...but rather death-dealing together with a sure condemnation on judgment day.

wow...this is powerful

 

[Lizbeth]

wow...this is powerful

Careful brother. Don't forget there is another side to this. Jesus DIED in faith. No miracle could be seen when He was hanging on the cross. Nothing manifested until 3 days later. Job said, though He slay me yet will I trust Him. Faith gets tested and tried. Let PATIENCE have her perfect work. Walk by faith not by sight. The Lord honours our faith, but it doesn't always manifest right away. Not seeing the manifestation does not mean the faith is not genuine or that the promise is empty words.

 

[shepherdsword]

Careful brother. Don't forget there is another side to this. Jesus DIED in faith.

And therein lies the issue. We are to "DIE" in faith as well. Instead, what many claim, is that they are crucified with Christ but have no real power over sin. They make grand claims that have no substance. They lift themselves up into a position they have never experienced. I think that is the issue the OP is addressing.

 

[shepherdsword]

Careful brother. Don't forget there is another side to this. Jesus DIED in faith.

And therein lies the issue. We are to "DIE" in faith as well. Instead, what many claim, is that they are crucified with Christ but have no real power over sin. They make grand claims that have no substance. They lift themselves up into a position they have never experienced. I think that is the issue the OP is addressing.

No miracle could be seen when He was hanging on the cross. Nothing manifested until 3 days later.

Yes, but Jesus had seen the Father's power. He raised at least three from the dead during his ministry. His faith had a strong foundation of manifested evidence.

Job said, though He slay me yet will I trust Him. Faith gets tested and tried. Let PATIENCE have her perfect work. Walk by faith not by sight. The Lord honours our faith, but it doesn't always manifest right away. Not seeing the manifestation does not mean the faith is not genuine or that the promise is empty words.

This has a certain element of truth. However, let's not forget that faith without works is dead so we should see a manifestation of the reality of out faith.

 

[Lizbeth]

And therein lies the issue. We are to "DIE" in faith as well. Instead, what many claim, is that they are crucified with Christ but have no real power over sin. They make grand claims that have no substance. They lift themselves up into a position they have never experienced. I think that is the issue the OP is addressing.

Yes I agree we need to die to ourselves too. But you are not addressing the point I was making. As happens a a lot. Episkopos says if there is faith we can expect to see it manifested immediately. And I am pointing out, that is not always the case. (There are so many examples in the bible.) Not to mention the fact that faith is a living growing thing, not static. Tiny mustard seed has to grow into a big tree.

The bible says we HAVE been crucified with Christ.........so we need to believe it.........but yes, we need to know the difference between what has been accomplished in heaven and what we are actually apprehending on earth and walking in. But isn't the problem (or part of it) that people aren't believing it deeply enough to be able to walk in it? Instead of encouraging and helping our faith to believe/receive what is written, some appear to want to destroy it entirely and even chastise those who do believe it. They are the ones not understanding what has been written. The "yes but not necessarily yet" of certain things. It needs to be spiritually discerned.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yes I agree we need to die to ourselves too. But you are not addressing the point I was making. As happens a a lot. Episkopos says if there is faith we can expect to see it manifested immediately. And I am pointing out, that is not always the case. ly discerned.

I missed the place where he said there is always an immediate manifestation. Can you point that out?

 

[Lizbeth]

This has a certain element of truth. However, let's not forget that faith without works is dead so we should see a manifestation of the reality of out faith.

Only a "certain element of truth"? It is what the bible says and shows. Therefore it is a valid part of the story. Someone here is denying certain important truths in the word of God on the basis of whether or not it can be "seen". There are things that Jesus HAS accomplished on the cross for us whether we are "seeing" it all completely and visibly manifested in our lives yet or not.

I do not disagree with holiness teaching/preaching in principle, it is very much needed I believe, but I can't accept where it is accompanied by denial of the foundations of the faith.

 

[Lizbeth]

we surrender/put ourselves willingly under His feet, we DO begin to then see that all things ARE put under His feet?

Yes, but until then, it doesn't nullify the truth that all things HAVE already been put under His feet......as the scripture clearly says.

 

[shepherdsword]

Only a "certain element of truth"? It is what the bible says and shows. Therefore it is a valid part of the story. Someone here is denying certain important truths in the word of God on the basis of whether or not it can be "seen". There are things that Jesus HAS accomplished on the cross for us whether we are "seeing" it all completely and visibly manifested in our lives yet or not.

I do not disagree with holiness teaching/preaching in principle, it is very much needed I believe, but I can't accept where it is accompanied by denial of the foundations of the faith.

Yes...only certain elements of truth....you left out that faith without works is DEAD. Your belief rests on cherry picking a few verses here and there to produce a McGurk effect that re-enforces your paradigm. It is hardly based on the WHOLE council of God.

 

[Lizbeth]

I missed the place where he said there is always an immediate manifestation. Can you point that out?

Your sarcasm is noted.

Here is what he said:

"Faith on the other hand comes with God's confirmation...a translation, a visitation, a spiritual gift etc That's how we know we have faith and not beliefs....God's intervention."

I am pointing out another side of the story. Where we do not yet "see" God's intervention, does not mean faith is not genuine, or that the promise is untrue.

 

[shepherdsword]

Your sarcasm is noted.

Here is what he said:

"Faith on the other hand comes with God's confirmation...a translation, a visitation, a spiritual gift etc That's how we know we have faith and not beliefs....God's intervention."

I am pointing out another side of the story. Where we do not yet "see" God's intervention, does not mean faith is not genuine, or that the promise is untrue.

I am pointing out that he didn't say "immediate". God will always act upon our faith according to His timetable and not our own.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes...only certain elements of truth....you left out that faith without works is DEAD. Your belief rests on cherry picking a few verses here and there to produce a McGurk effect that re-enforces your paradigm. It is hardly based on the WHOLE council of God.

I don't leave that out of "my paradigm" at all. True believers have works....our very first work after believing with our heart is to confess with our mouth. Our lives change. But we are not perfected yet in the beginning. We begin to embark on a journey of FAITH and begin to draw from the well of salvation. The well that IS there even if we haven't drunk it to the dregs yet.

 

[Lizbeth]

I am pointing out that he didn't say "immediate". God will always act upon our faith according to His timetable and not our own.

You seem to be ignoring and even went out of your way to leave out the point that I was making. Let me repeat it:

"I am pointing out another side of the story. Where we do not yet "see" God's intervention, does not mean faith is not genuine, or that the promise is untrue." Do you agree or disagree?

 

[shepherdsword]

You seem to be ignoring and even went out of your way to leave out the point that I was making. Let me repeat it:

"I am pointing out another side of the story. Where we do not yet "see" God's intervention, does not mean faith is not genuine, or that the promise is untrue." Do you agree or disagree?

Oh I agree with this. However, I think you are missing the point of the OP entirely by trying to flip it into something he is not saying. Only a novice would say that the results of faith are always instantaneous. Just as only a novice would say they never are.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh I agree with this. However, I think you are missing the point of the OP entirely by trying to flip it into something he is not saying. Only a novice would say that the results of faith are always instantaneous. Just as only a novice would say they never are.

I think I did understand what he said, however he is certainly free to clarify if there is a misunderstanding. Go back to what I posted and then what he posted in reply. #121 and #122 on this page 7. I shared the scripture that says Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, and the evidence of things NOT SEEN. Instead of agreeing with the scripture, he refuted it to imply that if there is genuine faith, it will be accompanied by something that is seen......God confirming the faith. I'm saying, not always and not necessarily yet. Epi's theology denies that through faith what is not yet seen is imputed to us before it is manifested/seen. Scripture also says we are saved by hope, and who already has what he hopes for.

But as I said Epi is certainly free to clarify himself if need be.

His latest video teaching says that protestant "positional" doctrine is false. I would say that it isn't false exactly, but needs to go even further! Its' more than merely positional, it is actual truth regarding our new man, which has been created in Christ's image....and therefore must be perfect, whole, and lacking nothing.