The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

hmmm, respectfully, I would deduct from your reply that you are unfamiliar with the book of Revelation.....let alone accounts like John 20:28, Luke 24:52, Matthew 28:9 and Matthew 28:18

There are no confessions of Jesus being God, being prayed to, or worshipped in the entire book of Revelation. I welcome you to show otherwise if you have discovered anything.

I might add, several have brought this up already. All of them didn't take into account the context in which Jesus isn't the throne sitter or the same referent as God. The Lamb is never Lord God Almighty in the Bible.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

 

[quietthinker]

There are no confessions of Jesus being God, being prayed to, or worshipped in the entire book of Revelation. I welcome you to show otherwise if you have discovered anything.

I might add, several have brought this up already. All of them didn't take into account the context in which Jesus isn't the throne sitter or the same referent as God. The Lamb is never Lord God Almighty in the Bible.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

I guess you are not trinitarian?

Allow me to explain this.....
God is relational. If God from eternity before anything existed either on a physical or a spiritual plane were singular then he is not relational. Relational means there is another to have relationship with. In the case of the trinitarian view there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit. All are God. In human form the Son was subordinate to the Father; that was one of the limitations he submitted himself to so that we could relate to God in a real way. Relating to a Spirit (which God essentially is) for fallen flesh and blood is outside of possibility. God became human so we could relate with his core.
Interestingly, we are told that Jesus has received a name above every other name. (that is another thing to explore) We are also told he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Perhaps you could speak to this before we look at Revelation?

 

[Wrangler]

Simple question: Is CHRIST(The LAMB) Standing in the CENTER of the Throne of God and the angels and the 24 Elders fall down to worship?

You answer my questions in post #304 first, then I'll answer yours.

 

[David in NJ]

You answer my questions in post #304 first, then I'll answer yours.

Good Morning

 

[Runningman]

2. Rev 22:3 --And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

Continuing where I left off, I am going to try to divide this up into several comments. Some may be lengthier than others, but I will always try to keep it as concise as possible. I'm going to begin by commenting more on how this particular verse is actually a powerful argument against a shared throne, but most especially this is a powerful verse against the Lamb sharing identity with God.

Your mentioning of this particular verse is a powerful testimony against your "Worship Jesus" doctrine. I'll explain why now.

The passage here demonstrates that John understood the distinction between singular and plural pronouns. In Revelation 22:3,4 notice that John wrote of 2 referents (God and the Lamb) and then immediately shows distinction between plural and singular when he referred to the servants.

Revelation 22​

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads​

John is referring to God as a distinct person from the Lamb, in accordance with John is not defining God as more than one person. We may also look later where throughout the entire Bible God is never referred to as a they or them even one time.

The final part of this comment is about the part in Rev. 22:4 that says "His name will be on their foreheads"

This means that John didn't believe that the Father and the Lamb have the same name. In Revelation 14:1, John showed that the Lamb's name is not the same name as the Father. He said, "Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads."

So there are two names written on their foreheads in Revelation 14:1 and then there is only one name written on the servants' foreheads in Revelation 22:4. This is reinforced by Revelation 3:12, where Jesus himself states "Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name."

Since you agree that God is the only One to be worshipped and we can see that God and the Lamb do not even have the same name (Revelation 14:1, Revelation 3:12) then God is not the same referent as the Lamb. You can now understand with precision that Revelation 22:3,4 referring to God as a singular person with a name that is unique from the Lamb then the Lamb is not the object of worship there. Plainly, the Lamb is not named YHWH like how God is.

Continued...

 

[rebuilder 454]

We're 18 pages in. Many people have made your claims, I have not seen anyone support them with Scripture.

Can you do it the way I am doing it? Matthew 6:6,9 and John 4:23, 24 clearly and explicitly state to pray to and worship the Father. That's indisputable. All of the "pray to Jesus" and "worship Jesus" doctrines have either been derived or inferred based on semantics or circumstances, but never clearly defined or formalized as a teaching or instruction for what the church, that Jesus created, should practice until in the centuries that followed its creation. That's a problem for us.

Same with the fact there is no sort of statement of faith or confession in Scripture about believing Jesus is God. I don't think that's an accident at all. The force of all of this together provides a clear picture that the early church didn't consider these kind of things relevant.

I think that is watch tower doctrine where jesus is a created being.
Heb 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jehovah calls Jesus God.

Is it ok to worship who Jehovah identifies as God?
To pray to the God Jehovah identifies?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Heb 2
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

All things are created by him.
We do worship the creator.
End of story

 

[rebuilder 454]

What you guys are doing is messing with the testimony of Jesus.
Not knowing who He is.

 

[Runningman]

I think that is watch tower doctrine where jesus is a created being.
Heb 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jehovah calls Jesus God.

Is it ok to worship who Jehovah identifies as God?
To pray to the God Jehovah identifies?

Hello and good morning. I am not a JW so I am not familiar with all of their teachings, but the short answer is that it is not ok to worship those whom God identifies as "God" or god. If that were so, do you feel it's ok to worship Moses?

Exodus 7
1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Heb 2
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee


Oh yeah...we worship Jesus, the creator of all things.

Since he is our high priest, we pray to Him, (as a priest, by definition, is one who stands between God and man.)

 

[Runningman]

Matt 4:10-- Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship (proskuneo) the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (latreuo)

Who do the servants (duoloi) serve?
According to Paul-
Romans 1:1- --Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Paul is a servant (doulos) of Jesus.
So we have sacred service (latreou) and worship (proskuneo) being given to God and the LAMB on one throne by the servants (duolo) of Jesus Christ.
Now hold on- You said proskuneo can be given to anyone and proves nothing- what did Jesus say?
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship (proskuneo) the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (latreuo) matt 4:10

and what did the Angel tell John?

Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”-- Rev 22:9

and Peter-
Acts 10:25-26
As Peter was about to enter, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet to worship him. / But Peter helped him up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Agreed. This part should be fairly straightforward. Servants worship and serve God, but we do not worship servants in the Bible. Even Jesus is one of those servants.

Do you want to worship the God of Abraham or worship His servant?

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hello and good morning. I am not a JW so I am not familiar with all of their teachings, but the short answer is that it is not ok to worship those whom God identifies as "God" or god. If that were so, do you feel it's ok to worship Moses?

Exodus 7
1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Way off.
Moses is a man.
No deity.
We worship our creator.
Jesus is the creator.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Worship Jesus

Philippians 2:10-11
New King James Version
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Bow the knee to Jesus.
....according to the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Philippians 2:9-11
King James Version
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Name ABOVE EVERY NAME.
.
...the testimony of Jesus is WHO HE IS.

ONCE I UNDERSTAND WHO JESUS IS, AND I ALIGN WITH THE BIBLE, ALL THESE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED

 

[Runningman]

Way off.
Moses is a man.
No deity.
We worship our creator.
Jesus is the creator.

Jesus is a man, too, never called the creator in the Bible. Is himself a creation, etc. See John 1:14, Colossians 2:15, Revelation 3:14.

Question, do you believe humans are creations?

 

[marks]

Worship Jesus

Philippians 2:10-11
New King James Version
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Bow the knee to Jesus.
....according to the bible.

For Paul to apply the Isaiah passage to Jesus would have been blasphemy if Jesus were not God.

I agree with you, once you understand Who Jesus is, the rest will make sense. Without that understand, there will be much confusion.

Much love!

 

[Runningman]

For Paul to apply the Isaiah passage to Jesus would have been blasphemy if Jesus were not God.

I agree with you, once you understand Who Jesus is, the rest will make sense. Without that understand, there will be much confusion.

Much love!

Just a question, do you believe God and Jesus share the same name? Also, may I ask if you are aware of all of the other verses about God that are applied to people who are not Jesus?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

There is no deception at all.

Anybody thinking Jesus is a created Being has been deceived.

He's the Word of God and nobody created Him because God's Word is God.

The enemy has a little word play, a little semantics going that has some folks deceived.

Did John explicitly state the Lamb is a man? Are men made of matter? Is matter a creation? The answer is a resounding yes. Thus, the Lamb is a creation, the Bible says so.

Of course the carnally minded will focus on the Body the Lord prepared for the Word to be manifest in.

Flesh is as flesh does.

I think that is watch tower doctrine where jesus is a created being.

Yeah, the cult people don't know Jesus so they believe all the lies the devil tells them about Jesus

 

[Wrangler]

The enemy has a little word play, a little semantics going that has some folks deceived.

Indeed - as you invoke a little word play. LOL

He's the Word of God

Not one verse says that.

and nobody created Him because God's Word is God.

Perhaps you're reading too much into John 1:1. See John 1:45, the one Moses told us about. Do you know to what this refers? See Deut 18:15-18.

Jesus is called the Son of God. Sons, by definition, are created beings, aren't they? Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten means made. Look it up.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Not one verse says that.

It's sad and really slow that you don't know God's Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and
only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth

Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in
these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom
also he made the universe

Matthew 1:23
The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means ‘God
with us

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we
have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life

Perhaps you're reading too much into John 1:1. See John 1:45, the one Moses told us about. Do you know to what this refers? See Deut 18:15-18.

There's one of your problems right there, trying to live under the old covenant.

You a fan of that kabbala garbage? They enjoy rejecting Jesus every opportunity they get.

Jesus is called the Son of God. Sons, by definition, are created beings, aren't they? Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten means made. Look it up.

Carnal minded people who don't know the Lord are looking at His flesh thinking that's Him because to the carnal minded, it's all about the flesh baby!

Sad to hear you have rejected the Word of the Living God are are now walking in demonic cult teaching and beliefs. That's too bad for you as you will learn soon enough