Phariseeism in the Modern Church
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MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
I’ll have to look at the full verse and context after lunch.
Aha. OK When we say faith we are talking about what we think GOD wants. But a righteous man apart from faith in God does things because HE thinks they are right. It just so happens that God ALSO thinks it's right.
For example, the Samaritan saw the man at the side of the road in his state of suffering. Does it say he prayed about what to do? No...he did not check with God. So that is not about the faith OF God. Does it say that he was convicted by the Spirit to help him? No, it says simply that he treated the man because he had pity on him. And that's all that's required to be righteous. Honesty and compassion. These are attributes of a soul... it just so happens that these attributes fulfill the law. Of course we can ALSO learn these attributes based on our faith. In fact, we are to LEARN righteousness both from the bible AND from those who do rightly without any realization that they are doing so. The great danger about faith and works is that we THINK we are righteous for our obedience. That's when we go back to the humble ones who don't think they are doing anything out of the ordinary. So God allows for the righteous to not believe in Him necessarily...or believe in a God up there somewhere. But it is their DEEDS that justify them....not their faith.
We can't PLEASE God without faith. But we can be accepted by God through our doings. The MEEK inherit the earth. No other qualifiers are needed.
Or what about other religions? Can they not be righteous because of what they do?
It's almost like Christians say they are going to obey but don't...and other religions say they won't but do. Such is our confusion about faith versus beliefs.
Everyone has beliefs of some kind. But it isn't the ones who have the most accurate beliefs that do the best works. Not unless they understand righteousness.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
I read it and I disagree with how you see it. It reads to me like he was talking about unbelievers who never so much as heard the law but nevertheless, by nature, they do the law, unknowingly.
Full of faith could mean having the faith OF Christ to do the impossible...like Stephen. Stephen was a holy man of faith. He went far beyond the righteous in that He operated directly before God...whereas the righteous are ignorant of God, yet they still do what is right on a human level because of their upbringing or their conscience....or both.
Ultimately, that is the Lord's decision, who am I to speculate? However, I do see that when Jesus said "there is no way to Father except by me" He was saying more than many grasp. He wasn't talking about religious dogma, He was saying "I am the Lord, I ALONE make the decision as to who will enter the Kingdom of my Father. It's a statement about who He is and not what we must believe, as many assume.
I don't believe that the righteousness of God takes away the righteousness of men. I think these are meant for mutual support. Otherwise we receive the truth in unrighteousness...which means we are headed for destruction.
What I see in modern Christianity is a necessity to destroy human righteousness in order to claim that only Christians are moral. These reduce holiness to what men can already do of themselves...instead of elevating Christ and DOING as He did.what is impossible for men to do.
A true Christianity then holds up holiness as something that only can be done by grace through faith. But a human righteous is necessary to support that holy walk otherwise we are resisting the grace and the gift whenever we are being tested to NOT defend our rights as we see them. We are being called to SELFLESSNESS...laying down one's life for another is NOT only a holiness phenomenon...but a righteousness one as well.
What I see in modern Christianity is a necessity to destroy human righteousness in order to claim that only Christians are moral. These reduce holiness to what men can already do of themselves...instead of elevating Christ and DOING as He did.what is impossible for men to do.
A true Christianity then holds up holiness as something that only can be done by grace through faith. But a human righteous is necessary to support that holy walk otherwise we are resisting the grace and the gift whenever we are being tested to NOT defend our rights as we see them. We are being called to SELFLESSNESS...laying down one's life for another is NOT only a holiness phenomenon...but a righteousness one as well.
I just hope I am meeting it even on a human level. It seems the more victory over sin I see the more I see I still need.
But if you want to understand that without persecuting the righteous then you have to be able to discern the difference between the Bride and the guests.
The way to the Father and eternal life right NOW is according to HOLINESS.....the way to inherit life is through righteousness.
Amen. But if you can understand that there are 4 eternal destinies....you will see the place that God has reserved for the righteous in the nations and you will see where the hypocrites end up.
I am not trying to persecute or condemn anyone. I just think that those gentiles who do keep the spirit of the law, do have some element of faith. That even those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel may have an element of faith God can redeem. You have never heard me say someone is going to perdition. I FEAR to do so. A standard would then be laid on me. I understand that I am very limited in knowledge, understanding and experience. I can judge only what I see...a brief moment in the life of a person. While God can see the whole heart and their entire existence.
What was this "good thing" God saw in this child? In even one of the most wicked of houses? I hope I have it!
1 Ki 14:12-13
Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city, the child shall die.
And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the Lord God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
If that helps you to see that righteousness can be innate then OK. We are all created in God's image. The capacity for good is in all of us as we allow our inner conscience to operate separately from what benefits us personally. If you want to see that inner capacity as faith then fine. I don't think the bible equates that with faith...but rather with goodness. Although faith is also goodness. Are we saved by being good? Well sure. I believe that a person can do good without thinking he merits anything for it. Discretion is the greater part of valour.
Agreed. I hope you understand that I HAVE TO warn people based on what I know. I don't claim anything for myself but to be an unprofitable servant. But one that God has revealed many things.
Amen
Sure. Only God can judge when a man's righteousness outweighs his flaws.
What is interesting is that it says...faith without works is dead. But it doesn't say works without faith is dead. And that because we will not be judged by our faith....but only by our works.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
Okay, that’s fair. I assume them to be unbelievers and you assume them to be believers.
True, we are judged by works. However, at the last judgement another book is opened, one which is aside from works. The book of life. Is entry into that also based on works?
Rv 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Actually the OTHER book Is the book of life. This is the second resurrection..the general judgment for all nations. The righteous are written in the book of life.
And the books were opened....this is the first judgment for God's household. Those 2 books are the Lamb's book of life and the book of remembrance.
There are 3 books that all men are judged from.
I've seen this truth play out in my dad's life. He comes from a muslim family, but was mostly muslim in name only. Before he committed his life to Jesus and became a true believer, I saw a righteousness in him, that my mother, who has been a Christian for most of her life, did not show towards others. I always wondered why my dad showed greater kindness to those in need, with out knowing scripture. He's not very literate, so relies on having to hear the word now, since he became a believer.
My current personal belief is God opperates in various ways to plant His "truth" or "word/Christ" in our hearts through out our lives. Even if we don't realize it. No matter if you already know Jesus, or believe in a different religion. And if we act it out, we show unknowingly to God that we believe that truth. As our work then becomes a manifestation of what was planted. Anyways, still trying to understand a lot of what is being shared here. The discussion has been helpful to me. :)
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
You know, your last question here has been covered, consistently and with many verses, by episkopos both in the videos I watched and in his posts.
Without faith it is impossible to PLEASE God. But it is possible to be ACCEPTABLE (both with faith and without faith) and He will judge both.
I was right, you don’t have a clean grasp of the separation of what is holy from what is not.
Its strange. Full of faith…and yet even the tiniest bit of that kind of faith can move mountains…
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