Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[WPM]

No I am telling the truth...the facts.
It means they were thinking of it in their minds.....there is no real citizenship in a metaphorical concept. No place to live in a metaphorical Israel. No place to live in a spiritual Israel. No way to govern in metaphorical Israel. Yeshua would be the King of the Kingdom of God.

Ahhh. Basically, what Paul was teaching was meaningless? So we were strangers from a meaningless reality and we have now been brought into a meaningless reality? Are you serious?

Even metaphorical language carries real meaning. It seems to me like you are trying to explain away something that cuts across your taught theology.

 

[WPM]

Again a metaphor. Can you join a nation that does not exist.
Today we cannot join the Roman Empire or be a citizen of the Roman Empire because.....it does not exist anymore.
The Gentiles were converted to Christianity. The were not made Jewish. They were never allowed in the Temple.

You unilaterally declare there is no such thing as spiritual Israel (despite the strong evidence to the contrary and without any proof to support your claims) and then render it impossible for us to join such. Can you see the folly of your reasoning? Talk about manipulating Scripture to support your error. Talk about explaining away literal Scripture! What else is not real? What else is not literal? Where does such madness stop? This is not a figurative book like Revelation.

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle East or was it faithful remnant Israel? There are numerous Scripture that show that we have been joined to remnant elect Israel - the true people of God. We are one body with them. We are one building with them. There is one sheep fold.

We are enjoined to believing Old Testament Israel through Jesus Christ. We have been made one. The wall of separation is gone forever. Israel has been expanded to embrace all nations today. We are true Israel. We are the circumcision. This union comes exclusively through the blood of Jesus. Anyone who refuses to embrace the cross is an enemy of God, not a friend.

 

[Grailhunter]

Ahhh. Basically, what Paul was teaching was meaningless? So we were strangers from a meaningless reality and we have now been brought into a meaningless reality? Are you serious?

Even metaphorical language carries real meaning. It seems to me like you are trying to explain away something that cuts across your taught theology.

I did not say that metaphors do not have meaning. The Parables of the Gospels, the verses about the body of Christ and putting on the full armor of God.....lots of meaning.

In this case I think Paul was retroflecting....reminiscing.

 

[Grailhunter]

You unilaterally declare there is no such thing as spiritual Israel

What is a spiritual Israel? In the heart, in Heaven, floating around here and there.

 

[Grailhunter]

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle East or was it faithful remnant Israel? There are numerous Scripture that show that we have been joined to remnant elect Israel - the true people of God. We are one body with them. We are one building with them. There is one sheep fold.

As a whole we are descendants of the Gentile-Christians.....Pagans that converted to Christianity, not Judaism or Israel. Israel meant very little to them. Now Paul on the on the hand, like I said was surely sad that his brethren that had not accepted Christ had missed the boat so to speak. Failed God and 700 years of waiting for their Messiah just to get Him killed and now destined for Hell. Yeap not feeling to good about that.

But no reason to wish any part of that on Christianity.

 

[WPM]

I did not say that metaphors do not have meaning. The Parables of the Gospels, the verses about the body of Christ and putting on the full armor of God.....lots of meaning.

In this case I think Paul was retroflecting.

Stop avoiding. Explain what this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept means? Which text/s are you referring to? Are humans part of this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept? If so, who are they?

 

[Grailhunter]

Stop avoiding. Explain what this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept means? Which text/s are you referring to? Are humans part of this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept? If so, who are they?

Not avoiding you were saying I was thinking a metaphor is not important or meaningful and I explained that is not true.
Can you be a physical citizen in a metaphor? Do we need to be fitted for the armor of God? Can we run for mayor in a spiritual Israel? It is a metaphor, a thought, a comparison.

 

[WPM]

Not avoiding you were saying I was thinking a metaphor is not important or meaningful and I explained that is not true.
Can you be a physical citizen in a metaphor? Do we need to be fitted for the armor of God? Can we run for mayor in a spiritual Israel? It is a metaphor, a thought, a comparison.

So what else is a metaphor in this reading?

Ephesians 2:10-13 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship – Strong’s 4174) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into that which they were once estranged from:

1. Christ
2. The citizenship of Israel
3. The covenants of promise
4. Spiritual hope
5. Union with God in this present world

Is Christ a metaphor here? Are the covenants of promise a metaphor? Is spiritual hope a metaphor? Is union with God in this present world a metaphor?

 

[WPM]

Not avoiding you were saying I was thinking a metaphor is not important or meaningful and I explained that is not true.
Can you be a physical citizen in a metaphor? Do we need to be fitted for the armor of God? Can we run for mayor in a spiritual Israel? It is a metaphor, a thought, a comparison.

Dispies cannot seem to understand the spiritual. They are so fixated with the natural, temporal, earthly and physical that they miss the spiritual truth of much of the NT. They're so captivated with the re-introduction of the old covenant that that they miss the fact that the kingdom of God is here now. Wherever the King rules today you will find the kingdom of God present.

 

[Grailhunter]

So what else is a metaphor in this reading?

Ephesians 2:10-13 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship – Strong’s 4174) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into that which they were once estranged from:

1. Christ
2. The citizenship of Israel
3. The covenants of promise
4. Spiritual hope
5. Union with God in this present world

Is Christ a metaphor here? Are the covenants of promise a metaphor? Is spiritual hope a metaphor? Is union with God in this present world a metaphor?

Is Christ a metaphor? Silly question.
Spiritual hope in what?
Union with God? You mean reconciliation with God....no not a metaphor.
Are you confused regarding metaphors and reality?

 

[Grailhunter]

Dispies cannot seem to understand the spiritual. They are so fixated with the natural, temporal, earthly and physical that they miss the spiritual truth of much of the NT. They're so captivated with the re-introduction of the old covenant that that they miss the fact that the kingdom of God is here now. Wherever the King rules today you will find the kingdom of God present.

Dispies is not a word.
But it is clear that you are not understanding the scriptures and so you would rather read your own fantasy world into them.

 

[WPM]

Is Christ a metaphor? Silly question.
Spiritual hope in what?
Union with God? You mean reconciliation with God....no not a metaphor.
Are you confused regarding metaphors and reality?

No. You seem to be. You turn one of these experiences into a meaningless metaphor in order to justify the unjustifiable. You are totally incapable of addressing simple biblical questions that exposure position. The reader can look back on every page of our conversations and will see that for themselves.

This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ. Paul the Apostle makes it clear that all five have been graciously opened up to the Gentiles since Christ’s first advent. The Gentile believer can now experience God in the same way the Jew could prior to the cross through their surrender to Christ and their trust in “the blood of Christ.” Gentiles Christians under the new covenant now enjoy the same undeserved favor and blessing that Israeli Jewish believers did under the old covenant. We essentially see the incorporation of the once darkened Gentiles into true Israel. They now share with Israel its Messiah, Israeli citizenship, spiritual covenants, promises, hope and God.”

 

[WPM]

Dispies is not a word.
But it is clear that you are not understanding the scriptures and so you would rather read your own fantasy world into them.

The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Do you disagree with that?

 

[Grailhunter]

No. You seem to be. You turn one of these experiences into a meaningless metaphor in order to justify the unjustifiable.

Again, I did not say it was meaningless.

The reader can look back on every page of our conversations and will see that for themselves.

Yes the readers can look back and see that you have a fixation on Israel. And I am sure that some wonder why?

This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ. Paul the Apostle makes it clear that all five have been graciously opened up to the Gentiles since Christ’s first advent. The Gentile believer can now experience God in the same way the Jew could prior to the cross through their surrender to Christ and their trust in “the blood of Christ.” Gentiles Christians under the new covenant now enjoy the same undeserved favor and blessing that Israeli Jewish believers did under the old covenant. We essentially see the incorporation of the once darkened Gentiles into true Israel. They now share with Israel its Messiah, Israeli citizenship, spiritual covenants, promises, hope and God.”

I agree with some of that.
Blessings of Israel? I guess you define blessings different than me. Solomon worshipped Pagan gods and built temples for them in Israel....The kingdom were conquered and 10 of the 12 tribes lost. The Temple destroyed. Forced under the rule of Pagan Empires for 300 years......Blessings????

Citizenship in a metaphor????

 

[Grailhunter]

The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Do you disagree with that?

Only in your head we are Jews.

 

[covenantee]

Only in your head we are Jews.

Romans 2
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...

Wasn't that also in Paul's head?