Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[WPM]

No I am telling the truth...the facts.
It means they were thinking of it in their minds.....there is no real citizenship in a metaphorical concept. No place to live in a metaphorical Israel. No place to live in a spiritual Israel. No way to govern in metaphorical Israel. Yeshua would be the King of the Kingdom of God.

Ahhh. Basically, what Paul was teaching was meaningless? So we were strangers from a meaningless reality and we have now been brought into a meaningless reality? Are you serious?

Even metaphorical language carries real meaning. It seems to me like you are trying to explain away something that cuts across your taught theology.

 

[WPM]

Again a metaphor. Can you join a nation that does not exist.
Today we cannot join the Roman Empire or be a citizen of the Roman Empire because.....it does not exist anymore.
The Gentiles were converted to Christianity. The were not made Jewish. They were never allowed in the Temple.

You unilaterally declare there is no such thing as spiritual Israel (despite the strong evidence to the contrary and without any proof to support your claims) and then render it impossible for us to join such. Can you see the folly of your reasoning? Talk about manipulating Scripture to support your error. Talk about explaining away literal Scripture! What else is not real? What else is not literal? Where does such madness stop? This is not a figurative book like Revelation.

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle East or was it faithful remnant Israel? There are numerous Scripture that show that we have been joined to remnant elect Israel - the true people of God. We are one body with them. We are one building with them. There is one sheep fold.

We are enjoined to believing Old Testament Israel through Jesus Christ. We have been made one. The wall of separation is gone forever. Israel has been expanded to embrace all nations today. We are true Israel. We are the circumcision. This union comes exclusively through the blood of Jesus. Anyone who refuses to embrace the cross is an enemy of God, not a friend.

 

[Grailhunter]

Ahhh. Basically, what Paul was teaching was meaningless? So we were strangers from a meaningless reality and we have now been brought into a meaningless reality? Are you serious?

Even metaphorical language carries real meaning. It seems to me like you are trying to explain away something that cuts across your taught theology.

I did not say that metaphors do not have meaning. The Parables of the Gospels, the verses about the body of Christ and putting on the full armor of God.....lots of meaning.

In this case I think Paul was retroflecting....reminiscing.

 

[Grailhunter]

You unilaterally declare there is no such thing as spiritual Israel

What is a spiritual Israel? In the heart, in Heaven, floating around here and there.

 

[Grailhunter]

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle East or was it faithful remnant Israel? There are numerous Scripture that show that we have been joined to remnant elect Israel - the true people of God. We are one body with them. We are one building with them. There is one sheep fold.

As a whole we are descendants of the Gentile-Christians.....Pagans that converted to Christianity, not Judaism or Israel. Israel meant very little to them. Now Paul on the on the hand, like I said was surely sad that his brethren that had not accepted Christ had missed the boat so to speak. Failed God and 700 years of waiting for their Messiah just to get Him killed and now destined for Hell. Yeap not feeling to good about that.

But no reason to wish any part of that on Christianity.

 

[WPM]

I did not say that metaphors do not have meaning. The Parables of the Gospels, the verses about the body of Christ and putting on the full armor of God.....lots of meaning.

In this case I think Paul was retroflecting.

Stop avoiding. Explain what this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept means? Which text/s are you referring to? Are humans part of this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept? If so, who are they?

 

[Grailhunter]

Stop avoiding. Explain what this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept means? Which text/s are you referring to? Are humans part of this metaphorical citizenship of Israel concept? If so, who are they?

Not avoiding you were saying I was thinking a metaphor is not important or meaningful and I explained that is not true.
Can you be a physical citizen in a metaphor? Do we need to be fitted for the armor of God? Can we run for mayor in a spiritual Israel? It is a metaphor, a thought, a comparison.

 

[WPM]

Not avoiding you were saying I was thinking a metaphor is not important or meaningful and I explained that is not true.
Can you be a physical citizen in a metaphor? Do we need to be fitted for the armor of God? Can we run for mayor in a spiritual Israel? It is a metaphor, a thought, a comparison.

So what else is a metaphor in this reading?

Ephesians 2:10-13 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship – Strong’s 4174) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into that which they were once estranged from:

1. Christ
2. The citizenship of Israel
3. The covenants of promise
4. Spiritual hope
5. Union with God in this present world

Is Christ a metaphor here? Are the covenants of promise a metaphor? Is spiritual hope a metaphor? Is union with God in this present world a metaphor?

 

[WPM]

Not avoiding you were saying I was thinking a metaphor is not important or meaningful and I explained that is not true.
Can you be a physical citizen in a metaphor? Do we need to be fitted for the armor of God? Can we run for mayor in a spiritual Israel? It is a metaphor, a thought, a comparison.

Dispies cannot seem to understand the spiritual. They are so fixated with the natural, temporal, earthly and physical that they miss the spiritual truth of much of the NT. They're so captivated with the re-introduction of the old covenant that that they miss the fact that the kingdom of God is here now. Wherever the King rules today you will find the kingdom of God present.

 

[Grailhunter]

So what else is a metaphor in this reading?

Ephesians 2:10-13 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship – Strong’s 4174) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into that which they were once estranged from:

1. Christ
2. The citizenship of Israel
3. The covenants of promise
4. Spiritual hope
5. Union with God in this present world

Is Christ a metaphor here? Are the covenants of promise a metaphor? Is spiritual hope a metaphor? Is union with God in this present world a metaphor?

Is Christ a metaphor? Silly question.
Spiritual hope in what?
Union with God? You mean reconciliation with God....no not a metaphor.
Are you confused regarding metaphors and reality?

 

[Grailhunter]

Dispies cannot seem to understand the spiritual. They are so fixated with the natural, temporal, earthly and physical that they miss the spiritual truth of much of the NT. They're so captivated with the re-introduction of the old covenant that that they miss the fact that the kingdom of God is here now. Wherever the King rules today you will find the kingdom of God present.

Dispies is not a word.
But it is clear that you are not understanding the scriptures and so you would rather read your own fantasy world into them.

 

[WPM]

Is Christ a metaphor? Silly question.
Spiritual hope in what?
Union with God? You mean reconciliation with God....no not a metaphor.
Are you confused regarding metaphors and reality?

No. You seem to be. You turn one of these experiences into a meaningless metaphor in order to justify the unjustifiable. You are totally incapable of addressing simple biblical questions that exposure position. The reader can look back on every page of our conversations and will see that for themselves.

This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ. Paul the Apostle makes it clear that all five have been graciously opened up to the Gentiles since Christ’s first advent. The Gentile believer can now experience God in the same way the Jew could prior to the cross through their surrender to Christ and their trust in “the blood of Christ.” Gentiles Christians under the new covenant now enjoy the same undeserved favor and blessing that Israeli Jewish believers did under the old covenant. We essentially see the incorporation of the once darkened Gentiles into true Israel. They now share with Israel its Messiah, Israeli citizenship, spiritual covenants, promises, hope and God.”

 

[WPM]

Dispies is not a word.
But it is clear that you are not understanding the scriptures and so you would rather read your own fantasy world into them.

The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Do you disagree with that?

 

[Grailhunter]

No. You seem to be. You turn one of these experiences into a meaningless metaphor in order to justify the unjustifiable.

Again, I did not say it was meaningless.

The reader can look back on every page of our conversations and will see that for themselves.

Yes the readers can look back and see that you have a fixation on Israel. And I am sure that some wonder why?

This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ. Paul the Apostle makes it clear that all five have been graciously opened up to the Gentiles since Christ’s first advent. The Gentile believer can now experience God in the same way the Jew could prior to the cross through their surrender to Christ and their trust in “the blood of Christ.” Gentiles Christians under the new covenant now enjoy the same undeserved favor and blessing that Israeli Jewish believers did under the old covenant. We essentially see the incorporation of the once darkened Gentiles into true Israel. They now share with Israel its Messiah, Israeli citizenship, spiritual covenants, promises, hope and God.”

I agree with some of that.
Blessings of Israel? I guess you define blessings different than me. Solomon worshipped Pagan gods and built temples for them in Israel....The kingdom were conquered and 10 of the 12 tribes lost. The Temple destroyed. Forced under the rule of Pagan Empires for 300 years......Blessings????

Citizenship in a metaphor????

 

[Grailhunter]

The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Do you disagree with that?

Only in your head we are Jews.

 

[covenantee]

Only in your head we are Jews.

Romans 2
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...

Wasn't that also in Paul's head?

 

[Grailhunter]

Romans 2
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...

Wasn't that also in Paul's head?

What is he saying there? I am an Indian if I am one inwardly. But really am I an Indian?
Paul makes comparisons. What good is it to be a Jew if you did not accept Christ as the Messiah and Savior?
For the Pagans that accepted Christ as the Messiah and Savior they are religiously equal to the Jewish-Christians.

More accurately Paul said....
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

 

[WPM]

Again, I did not say it was meaningless.


Yes the readers can look back and see that you have a fixation on Israel. And I am sure that some wonder why?



I agree with some of that.
Blessings of Israel? I guess you define blessings different than me. Solomon worshipped Pagan gods and built temples for them in Israel....The kingdom were conquered and 10 of the 12 tribes lost. The Temple destroyed. Forced under the rule of Pagan Empires for 300 years......Blessings????

Citizenship in a metaphor????

There is nothing you can do with this apart from spiritualize it away and render it meaningless. What does citizenship mean? You cannot even tell us what the citizenship of Israel looks like. You cannot even tell us if this is ethnic Israel or spiritual Israel? How about answering these questions and not ducking around every query that exposes your argument?

 

[WPM]

Only in your head we are Jews.

Scripture spiritualises the terms "Jew," "the circumcision," "Israel," and "children of Abraham" and applies them spiritually to both natural Jew and Gentile who love Jesus in our day.

Natural designations are repeatedly shown in the New Testament to mean nothing today. The spiritual designations that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been placed upon the Gentiles by faith. Popular Old Testament terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) that overwhelmingly described the Hebrew offspring of Abraham in the Old Testament are now employed under the new arrangement in a wider spiritual sense.

Dispensationalists limit terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) to solely the natural Hebrew descendants of Abraham. They fail to see that the favor of God moved from a theocratic nation to a spiritual nation with the ministry of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant. They interpret the term “kingdom” to also mean the same in both covenants. They fail to see that David’s earthly kingdom was only a type of the heavenly kingdom that Christ introduced to this earth at His first Advent. They fail to fully comprehend that we have moved away from the Old Testament shadow and type into the fullness of the New Testament reality.

 

[WPM]

Again, I did not say it was meaningless.


Yes the readers can look back and see that you have a fixation on Israel. And I am sure that some wonder why?



I agree with some of that.
Blessings of Israel? I guess you define blessings different than me. Solomon worshipped Pagan gods and built temples for them in Israel....The kingdom were conquered and 10 of the 12 tribes lost. The Temple destroyed. Forced under the rule of Pagan Empires for 300 years......Blessings????

Citizenship in a metaphor????

The terms "circumcision" and “uncircumcision" are spiritualized in the New Testament to differentiate the saved from the lost (irrespective of what broad natural people-group they belong to).

• "Circumcision" spiritually represents God’s elect regardless of nationality.
• “Uncircumcision" is spiritually synonymous with the unregenerate regardless of nationality.

Romans 2:25-29 supports this, saying, “if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

In Romans 2:25-29, Paul reveals a profound spiritual truth how physically uncircumcised Gentiles are viewed as the circumcised, and physically circumcised Jews are viewed as uncircumcised. This seems contradictory and mistaken. After all Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. In a natural sense this is true, but in a spiritual sense this isn’t. Paul goes on to prove this. He shows how the title “Jew” and “circumcision” are choice spiritual titles that relate alone to the redeemed of God.

A Jew today in God’s eyes is not physical but spiritual. Paul succinctly says, “he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.” Those that are born again, irrespective of nationality or color, are classed as true Jews.

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the international trans-ethnic Church, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit [Gr. pneuma], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

This couldn't be clearer: "we are the circumcision" who are "in the Spirit."

We are not natural Israel or natural Jews or natural circumcision or natural sons of Abraham (that means nothing anyway), we are the spiritual circumcision - the true circumcision. We are the only chosen people on planet earth.

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Circumcision is no longer physical but spiritual. His covenant people are the redeemed of all nations (Jew and Gentile) not merely natural Israelis. The old theocracy has gone for ever. God chosen people are the Church of Jesus Christ. The old covenant ordinances (including circumcision) have all been nailed to the tree of Calvary - thus their uselessness.

Galatians 3:7-9 also says, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Those who have come to Christ by simple faith are here identified as the true children of Abraham.