What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

[bro.tan]

Most people do not understand what grace is or how grace works. All they will say is that I am under grace. Some will say grace is a free gift and that’s true. But, what is this free gift. The free gift (grace) is Jesus came and died for our sins and by coming under his blood; we have access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam by sinning took away in the garden of Eden. With out the Tree of life (Jesus) man was condemned to death, even the second death (the lake of fire). Jesus told us in the scripture, (Psalms: 69: 4) They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, beingmine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away…which is your grace (our access to Jesus). Our fore parents, Adam and Eve chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Satan), by listening to Satan, instead of God, he cost us are access to The Tree of Life. Paul said this in Roman 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Adam and Eve were put forth from the Garden of Eden and from the Tree of Life. Grace is no more than a free gift retained by keeping God’s Law. Lets go into (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because all have sinned, and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. Paul says in Hebrew 10: (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.


Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

This is why Jesus said "And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Lets go into (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts....

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

This sounds dangerously close to saying that Grace means our restoration to the Law of Moses. Is that what you're saying? If so, this would run completely contrary to the NT Gospel of Christ, which began before the Cross but after the Cross ended with a complete disbanding of the Covenant of Law.

But I would completely agree with you that Grace means a restoration to Righteousness, even though it is not under the Covenant of Law. What that means is that the Law is being redefined after the Cross as under a new system of righteousness, no longer requiring the liturgical aspects of the Law, but only the moral representations that render human conduct appropriate before a holy God.

That means that just as under the Law Israel was responsible to obey God so now under the New Covenant system people are responsible to obey God. They are to walk by the Spirit of God, and not give occasion to walking independent of God's spiritual Law.

The moral aspects of the Law of Moses are retained within the NT Gospel of Christ such that we are obligated to follow after God's love and after His sense of righteousness and justice. We just can't return to a system that preceded Christ and which never brought restoration to the Tree of Life.

The Law only brought a temporary means of mitigation so that Israel could remain in contact with God until a final redemptive solution could be brought to bear. Now that Christ has fully returned us to the Tree of Life we no longer need a system that was utterly unable to bring us there. I hope you agree?

 

[bro.tan]

This sounds dangerously close to saying that Grace means our restoration to the Law of Moses. Is that what you're saying? If so, this would run completely contrary to the NT Gospel of Christ, which began before the Cross but after the Cross ended with a complete disbanding of the Covenant of Law.

But I would completely agree with you that Grace means a restoration to Righteousness, even though it is not under the Covenant of Law. What that means is that the Law is being redefined after the Cross as under a new system of righteousness, no longer requiring the liturgical aspects of the Law, but only the moral representations that render human conduct appropriate before a holy God.

That means that just as under the Law Israel was responsible to obey God so now under the New Covenant system people are responsible to obey God. They are to walk by the Spirit of God, and not give occasion to walking independent of God's spiritual Law.

The moral aspects of the Law of Moses are retained within the NT Gospel of Christ such that we are obligated to follow after God's love and after His sense of righteousness and justice. We just can't return to a system that preceded Christ and which never brought restoration to the Tree of Life.

The Law only brought a temporary means of mitigation so that Israel could remain in contact with God until a final redemptive solution could be brought to bear. Now that Christ has fully returned us to the Tree of Life we no longer need a system that was utterly unable to bring us there. I hope you agree?

In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

There are those who believe that because Christ overcame sin and kept the law that now we don't have to keep God's laws. But what do the Scriptures tell us? Here's what Jesus said:

Jesus says in (Mat.5:17-19) (v.17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (v.18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (v.19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to fulfill, to fill to the full (Gk. plereo). He fulfilled many prophecies - but not all. There are many in the Book of Revelation still to be fulfilled. There is still some in the Old Testament that hasn’t been fulfilled. Jesus at His first coming came to fulfilled that which was written for Him to fulfill at His first coming. He has NOT fulfilled everything that was written for Him to do. And He kept all of the Law that he could - but that was not all! He was not a Temple priest. He was not a woman. He could not keep the laws intended only for priests and women. No matter how you think about Jesus, there is still much to be fulfilled! So not even the smallest part has yet passed from God's Law!

Jesus made it quite clear that anyone who would break even the least commandment and teach people to do so would be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. The fact is, God did not find fault with His laws but rather with the people who did not obey them. (Heb.8:7-8) (v.7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.(v.8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: The writer of Hebrews then proceeds to quote Jeremiah 31:31-34, quoted above. Under the New Covenant we now have a living High Priest, Jesus Christ, who can make intercession for us. One who was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. He is an intercessor who understands our weaknesses because He lived as a human being.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness.

I don't know why you go on promoting the Law of Moses? That just isn't NT theology!

Of course Isaiah spoke of God elevating the Law during the time when the Law was in effect. It was very important as a forerunner of the NT system.

But to go back to images that represented Christ instead of going directly to Christ himself is the opposite of what it was intended to do. It would be like magnifying John the Baptist instead of Jesus himself. It would be like magnifying a house blueprints instead of glorying in the house itself.

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent.

What does this mean, to go "beyond the mere physical intent?" Are you now using the phsical construction of the Law of Moses to suggest it is enhanced and advanced by an alternative spiritual reality for God's Law? Sounds a lot like double-talk?

There are those who believe that because Christ overcame sin and kept the law that now we don't have to keep God's laws.

As I've told you before, God's laws were never limited to the Law of Moses. God had laws before the Law of Moses, and He has them after the Law of Moses.

But the Law of Moses was a covenant that was conditioned on Israel's proper use and adherance to the terms of the Covenant. When Israel failed to do that at the critical moment of Messiah's arrival, that Covenant was irretrievably broken, making a new covenant essential.

And of course, there are now laws associated with the New Covenant, though certainly not identical with the Law of Moses.

But what do the Scriptures tell us? Here's what Jesus said:

Jesus says in (Mat.5:17-19) (v.17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (v.18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (v.19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I've answered this many times. The Law--every requirement--was in effect *while the Law was still in place. It was fulfilled at the death of Christ, where all of the sins of men, condemned by the Law, were summed up in the death of Messiah.

Thus, the principle of all sin being fulfilled in Christ is as durable as the universe. Death is as universal as the construction of the universe itself. Sin can only be fully repaired in the new creation, at the resurrection.

But redemption was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Christ. And we are redeemed by setting the Law aside, with its condemnation of sin, so that we can enjoy the righteousness of Christ without condemnation.

Jesus came to fulfill, to fill to the full (Gk. plereo). He fulfilled many prophecies - but not all.

That's not what Jesus was saying. He was not saying that all prophecy would have to be fulfilled before the Law was irretrievably broken, nor that the Law would remain in effect for sinners for all eternity, as long as the universe exists.

Jesus only said he would fulfill the prophecy contained in the Law as it concerned the purposes of the Law, which was to bring about a final remedy for sin in his death and resurrection.

Nobody is arguing that the Law of Moses has lost teaching value. Nobody is arguing that the God of the Law of Moses is the same as the God of today. Nobody is arguing that righteousness has now been lost with the coming of Christ and his acts of redemption.

But you are teaching something that may have made sense only while the Law was still in effect. It's no longer in effect, as we read in the NT Scriptures. You are teaching error, in my view.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus says in (Mat.5:17-19) (v.17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (v.18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (v.19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is true. And the sinful world will be judged by it. It is the ministry of death.

What would you say is the New Covenant, and how is it different from the Old Covenant for us? Why must we be born again? How does being born again of the Spirit free us from the law of sin and death?

 

[bro.tan]

This is true. And the sinful world will be judged by it. It is the ministry of death.

What would you say is the New Covenant, and how is it different from the Old Covenant for us? Why must we be born again? How does being born again of the Spirit free us from the law of sin and death?

This is really a long response, but to make it a short. Born again is a change in the body, not the mind. So when Jesus died and born again he had a different Body and can do other things like pop up from nowhere, etc. Remember, this is after His resurrection. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family, Jesus was Born Again.

Look at what 1 Peter says in Ch 1: 23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Paul confirm what Peter says the same thing in 1 Corthinan 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The law we are free from in the new Covenant, is the animal Sacrificial law. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[bro.tan]

I don't know why you go on promoting the Law of Moses? That just isn't NT theology!

Of course Isaiah spoke of God elevating the Law during the time when the Law was in effect. It was very important as a forerunner of the NT system.

But to go back to images that represented Christ instead of going directly to Christ himself is the opposite of what it was intended to do. It would be like magnifying John the Baptist instead of Jesus himself. It would be like magnifying a house blueprints instead of glorying in the house itself.

What does this mean, to go "beyond the mere physical intent?" Are you now using the phsical construction of the Law of Moses to suggest it is enhanced and advanced by an alternative spiritual reality for God's Law? Sounds a lot like double-talk?

As I've told you before, God's laws were never limited to the Law of Moses. God had laws before the Law of Moses, and He has them after the Law of Moses.

But the Law of Moses was a covenant that was conditioned on Israel's proper use and adherance to the terms of the Covenant. When Israel failed to do that at the critical moment of Messiah's arrival, that Covenant was irretrievably broken, making a new covenant essential.

And of course, there are now laws associated with the New Covenant, though certainly not identical with the Law of Moses.

I've answered this many times. The Law--every requirement--was in effect *while the Law was still in place. It was fulfilled at the death of Christ, where all of the sins of men, condemned by the Law, were summed up in the death of Messiah.

Thus, the principle of all sin being fulfilled in Christ is as durable as the universe. Death is as universal as the construction of the universe itself. Sin can only be fully repaired in the new creation, at the resurrection.

But redemption was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Christ. And we are redeemed by setting the Law aside, with its condemnation of sin, so that we can enjoy the righteousness of Christ without condemnation.

That's not what Jesus was saying. He was not saying that all prophecy would have to be fulfilled before the Law was irretrievably broken, nor that the Law would remain in effect for sinners for all eternity, as long as the universe exists.

Jesus only said he would fulfill the prophecy contained in the Law as it concerned the purposes of the Law, which was to bring about a final remedy for sin in his death and resurrection.

Nobody is arguing that the Law of Moses has lost teaching value. Nobody is arguing that the God of the Law of Moses is the same as the God of today. Nobody is arguing that righteousness has now been lost with the coming of Christ and his acts of redemption.

But you are teaching something that may have made sense only while the Law was still in effect. It's no longer in effect, as we read in the NT Scriptures. You are teaching error, in my view.

You said all that and quotes not one verse or scripture, but didn't Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

 

[bro.tan]

This sounds dangerously close to saying that Grace means our restoration to the Law of Moses. Is that what you're saying? If so, this would run completely contrary to the NT Gospel of Christ, which began before the Cross but after the Cross ended with a complete disbanding of the Covenant of Law.

But I would completely agree with you that Grace means a restoration to Righteousness, even though it is not under the Covenant of Law. What that means is that the Law is being redefined after the Cross as under a new system of righteousness, no longer requiring the liturgical aspects of the Law, but only the moral representations that render human conduct appropriate before a holy God.

That means that just as under the Law Israel was responsible to obey God so now under the New Covenant system people are responsible to obey God. They are to walk by the Spirit of God, and not give occasion to walking independent of God's spiritual Law.

The moral aspects of the Law of Moses are retained within the NT Gospel of Christ such that we are obligated to follow after God's love and after His sense of righteousness and justice. We just can't return to a system that preceded Christ and which never brought restoration to the Tree of Life.

The Law only brought a temporary means of mitigation so that Israel could remain in contact with God until a final redemptive solution could be brought to bear. Now that Christ has fully returned us to the Tree of Life we no longer need a system that was utterly unable to bring us there. I hope you agree?

That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is really a long response, but to make it a short. Born again is a change in the body, not the mind. So when Jesus died and born again he had a different Body and can do other things like pop up from nowhere, etc. Remember, this is after His resurrection. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family, Jesus was Born Again.

Look at what 1 Peter says in Ch 1: 23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Paul confirm what Peter says the same thing in 1 Corthinan 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The law we are free from in the new Covenant, is the animal Sacrificial law. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Except for your thoughts on being born again is a change to the body, I agreed with much of what you had to say. What I believe about being born again is that it is about the inner man, not the body at all. The inner man is called the old man and consists of the rebirth of our spirit and soul. The spirit is our mind. And the soul is our conscience/heart where God's laws are written and are part of our new nature. We no longer have a sin nature to deal with constantly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You said all that and quotes not one verse or scripture, but didn't Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

All I've said is based on what Scriptures have said. Whatever I may quote of Scripture you twist to mean something else. Paul referred to the Law as a testimony to God's righteousness in the time when it was still in effect. And the Law still testifies, as I said, to the righteousness that now exists in Christ. Two different systems, as Hebrews clearly teaches.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

As I said, there is God's Law under all of the systems He has utilized. The Law of Moses represented God's Law in the time when that covenant was in effect. That covenant system is in effect no longer. You've heard the Scriptures in this regard, and yet you want to keep quoting Scriptures in contradiction to this.

Heb 10.8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second."

 

[Randy Kluth]

That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place.

There are outdating laws in society regularly. What may have convicted a man last year may not convict him this year.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

The laws of sacrifice did remove sin on a temporary basis, though certainly not on an eternal basis. This is what the Scriptures mean by saying that the laws of sacrifice did not remove sin.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

The New Covenant of Christ is, as you say, a 2nd covenant and did require obedience to God's Law. But it was not the 1st Covenant. It was not the Law of Moses. The fact you indicate there are 2 separate covenants, and yet seem to blur them into one, concerns me.

 

[bro.tan]

There are outdating laws in society regularly. What may have convicted a man last year may not convict him this year.

The laws of sacrifice did remove sin on a temporary basis, though certainly not on an eternal basis. This is what the Scriptures mean by saying that the laws of sacrifice did not remove sin.

The New Covenant of Christ is, as you say, a 2nd covenant and did require obedience to God's Law. But it was not the 1st Covenant. It was not the Law of Moses. The fact you indicate there are 2 separate covenants, and yet seem to blur them into one, concerns me.

Thanks for responding...peace in Jesus name

 

[bro.tan]

All I've said is based on what Scriptures have said. Whatever I may quote of Scripture you twist to mean something else. Paul referred to the Law as a testimony to God's righteousness in the time when it was still in effect. And the Law still testifies, as I said, to the righteousness that now exists in Christ. Two different systems, as Hebrews clearly teaches.

As I said, there is God's Law under all of the systems He has utilized. The Law of Moses represented God's Law in the time when that covenant was in effect. That covenant system is in effect no longer. You've heard the Scriptures in this regard, and yet you want to keep quoting Scriptures in contradiction to this.

Heb 10.8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second."

Jesus said in Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Understand that the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, is included in the commandments as well.

No matter what you read in the Bible, you can not overturn these verses, you can not. Paul can't over turn these verses. No Prophet or apostles can overturn these verses, so what ever else you read in the Bible that talks about a law, that sounds like something else, then it is something else, another law. The royal law (ten commandment) are forever. Plant that in your head, so when you read about another law or deed you don't get confuse. By the way keeping the commandment consist of the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

What you have to understand is what laws was nail to the cross and what laws are still on the table. Paul only talks about three laws, and only two of them are nail to the cross. What you have to keep in mind that God had Peter to clearly warn people about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Let’s name the three law. The Leviticus Priesthood law, animal sacrificial law, Royal laws (commandments). Now the Leviticus Priesthood laws and animal sacrificial laws, all works together, so all those laws are nail to the cross, which consist of those duties.

Let go a little further and see what in the Deeds of the law (animal sacrificial law) was

Now let's begin by taking a look at both of the laws and how they worked together. We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the (Royal law) commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "If a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30) So this is the deeds of the law of animal sacrifical, this is what had to be done, by the priesthood.

Since Jesus death, sometime after, these laws had to stop. Pay attention to this next verse.

Lets go into Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Why did the veil rent from top to bottom. Because priesthood is fired, no need for that law any more. So when we read what Paul said...Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20). Paul spoke about two laws in this verse like it was written in the Old Testament, when you first begin reading, when Moses spoke about two laws, we just read.

 

[PeterAndroz]

There are outdating laws in society regularly. What may have convicted a man last year may not convict him this year.

The laws of sacrifice did remove sin on a temporary basis, though certainly not on an eternal basis. This is what the Scriptures mean by saying that the laws of sacrifice did not remove sin.

The New Covenant of Christ is, as you say, a 2nd covenant and did require obedience to God's Law. But it was not the 1st Covenant. It was not the Law of Moses. The fact you indicate there are 2 separate covenants, and yet seem to blur them into one, concerns me.

What matters the most is how you & I are saved & HS sealed
Christ THROUGH Paul taught :-
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13
Hear, believe, trust the death, burial, resurrection of Christ = saved & HS sealed
With Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 being the performance requirment
.
Do you agree with Jesus ?

 

[bro.tan]

Paul said in Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Before Jesus the Israelites and the strangers were sacrificing bull and goats for sin, because it was law. This was another law that was added because of sin. Paul says in Galatians 3: 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So Paul was explaining that now Christ is here and died on the cross, we no longer need this animal sacrificial law for sin.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. So we have to be baptize in the name of Jesus for our past sins, and then now we can start putting on Christ and keeping the Commandments of God.

 

[bro.tan]

What matters the most is how you & I are saved & HS sealed
Christ THROUGH Paul taught :-
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13
Hear, believe, trust the death, burial, resurrection of Christ = saved & HS sealed
With Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 being the performance requirment
.
Do you agree with Jesus ?

One important part that's not mention, and thats...."Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38). “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” Romans 6:3-4,

If we truly love God, then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must repent, give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord.

Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

"And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16).

 

[PeterAndroz]

Paul said in Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Before Jesus the Israelites and the strangers were sacrificing bull and goats for sin, because it was law. This was another law that was added because of sin. Paul says in Galatians 3: 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So Paul was explaining that now Christ is here and died on the cross, we no longer need this animal sacrificial law for sin.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. So we have to be baptize in the name of Jesus for our past sins, and then now we can start putting on Christ and keeping the Commandments of God.

""So Paul was explaining that now Christ is here and died on the cross, we no longer need this animal sacrificial law for sin."""
Thank you !!!
Good to see someone else who realizes that not ALL of the Bible applies to us today

 

[Randy Kluth]

What matters the most is how you & I are saved & HS sealed
Christ THROUGH Paul taught :-
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13
Hear, believe, trust the death, burial, resurrection of Christ = saved & HS sealed
With Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 being the performance requirment
.
Do you agree with Jesus ?

Is there something I said that made you think I *don't* agree with Jesus?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Is there something I said that made you think I *don't* agree with Jesus?

Hey Randy.
Do you agree with those teachings of Jesus ?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus said in Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Understand that the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, is included in the commandments as well.

Yes, under the system of Law God required obedience as an expression of faith in His mercy. That is true under any system that God has in place. Today, we are under the New Covenant and its own form of obedience.

No matter what you read in the Bible, you can not overturn these verses, you can not.

I'm *not* trying to overturn these verses! I'm placing them in their proper context, whereas you seem as if you're not. You quote commandments under the Old Testament system as if they apply in the same way within the New Testament system, and they do not! Paul plainly said they do not!

Paul can't over turn these verses. No Prophet or apostles can overturn these verses, so what ever else you read in the Bible that talks about a law, that sounds like something else, then it is something else, another law. The royal law (ten commandment) are forever.

The "royal law" has to do with a universal law of human relations--it does not address a particular covenant system.

Plant that in your head, so when you read about another law or deed you don't get confuse. By the way keeping the commandment consist of the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

I'm not going to "plant" false doctrine in my head! You are the one who is way out on a limb, believing and teaching law as if it remains OT Law! If you do that you're placing people under a system that condemned the human race, and intended to place our hope in Christ's resurrection.

What you have to understand is what laws was nail to the cross and what laws are still on the table. Paul only talks about three laws, and only two of them are nail to the cross.

You are confused. It is the entire system of OT Law that was nailed to the cross. What common moral laws remain are part of an entirely new system. Laws like love others as you wish to be loved existed from the beginning and do not imply the Law of Moses at all.

Let’s name the three law. The Leviticus Priesthood law, animal sacrificial law, Royal laws (commandments). Now the Leviticus Priesthood laws and animal sacrificial laws, all works together, so all those laws are nail to the cross, which consist of those duties.

No, the entire system of Law, which was a covenant between God and Israel, was nailed to the Cross. It was a temporary system designed to keep Israel in relationship with God until Christ came and brought final redemption. That meant that the Law of Moses as a system was no longer needed.

What you can do is distinguish the Moral Law from systems of law, or specific covenants. There may be in common moral laws from one covenant to another. But the two covenants of Moses' Law and Christ's Law are necessarily different. We don't restore the Law of Moses simply because the New Covenant has moral laws in common with it!