Contradiction or wrongly dividing ? !!!

[PeterAndroz]

We ALL agree that Christ taught ALL of His apostles.
That being the case why did Christ (Matt) teach saved requires performance but not in Paul ?
..
Matt 25 :- LIFE ETERNAL requires 'PERFORMANCE'
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
..
Is Christ CONTRADICTING Himself with Paul ???
..
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5:, Rom 5:1
..
Or is it that the teachings in Matthew apply to a different age/audience than Paul is selected to teach !!!
.

 

[Lambano]

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32

The word translated here "the nations" is ἔθνη (ethne), the same word translated as "Gentiles" in the letters of Paul and elsewhere in the New Testament.

So, I conclude that the referenced "age" is when Jesus comes back, and the population directly affected by this prophesy is us Gentiles.

 

[PeterAndroz]

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32

The word translated here "the nations" is ἔθνη (ethne), the same word translated as "Gentiles" in the letters of Paul and elsewhere in the New Testament.

So, I conclude that the referenced "age" is when Jesus comes back, and the population directly affected by this prophesy is us Gentiles.

Since you are quoting from Matthew.
Do you believe Matt 25:41-46 - works REQUIRED contradicts Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 - works NOT required.

 

[Lambano]

Since you are quoting from Matthew.
Do you believe Matt 25:41-46 - works REQUIRED contradicts Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 - works NOT required.

Would it bother you if it did?

Does it bother you that Paul says works can DISQUALIFY you? See Galatians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Deal with the contradictions any way you want. Maybe you need to reassess what Paul meant by works of Torah in Romans 3:28 and elsewhere.

Or do you think Jesus was a false prophet when He pronounced the Sheep and Goats prophesy?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Would it bother you if it did?

Does it bother you that Paul says works can DISQUALIFY you? See Galatians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Deal with the contradictions any way you want. Maybe you need to reassess what Paul meant by works of Torah in Romans 3:28 and elsewhere.

Or do you think Jesus was a false prophet when He pronounced the Sheep and Goats prophesy?

Paul was concerned with being DISQUALIFIED from PREACHING but NOT becoming UNsaved, UNsealed.

Wanna try again LB ?

 

[markalan]

We ALL agree that Christ taught ALL of His apostles.
That being the case why did Christ (Matt) teach saved requires performance but not in Paul ?
..
Matt 25 :- LIFE ETERNAL requires 'PERFORMANCE'
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
..
Is Christ CONTRADICTING Himself with Paul ???
..
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5:, Rom 5:1
..
Or is it that the teachings in Matthew apply to a different age/audience than Paul is selected to teach !!!
.

I see Mat 25 as the final judgment which does not apply to those who are born of the Spirit.
There are millions (billions probably) who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel during the past 2000 years.
I would say this is the group we see being judged in Mat 25.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I see Mat 25 as the final judgment which does not apply to those who are born of the Spirit.
There are millions (billions probably) who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel during the past 2000 years.
I would say this is the group we see being judged in Mat 25.

"""There are millions (billions probably)......""
I too believe that the TRULY ignorant would not judged the same way as those who heard, understood then rejected the Gospel
Watch out though Mark, there are those here who will shoot you down for holding a similar view.
...
Matt 25:41-46 - Fail to do = everlasting punishment
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
....
Where does Paul teach FAIL TO DO = EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT ?

 

[markalan]

"""There are millions (billions probably)......""
I too believe that the TRULY ignorant would not judged the same way as those who heard, understood then rejected the Gospel
Watch out though Mark, there are those here who will shoot you down for holding a similar view.

I would venture that the majority of people who have lived on this planet over the last 2000 years have never had an opportunity to accept the Gospel

...
Matt 25:41-46 - Fail to do = everlasting punishment
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
....
Where does Paul teach FAIL TO DO = EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT ?

2 Thessalonians 1 seems to be pointing in that direction

"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
with his mighty angels in flaming fire,
inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God
and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,
away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might".

 

[PeterAndroz]

I would venture that the majority of people who have lived on this planet over the last 2000 years have never had an opportunity to accept the Gospel


2 Thessalonians 1 seems to be pointing in that direction

"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
with his mighty angels in flaming fire,
inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God
and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,
away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might".

""I would venture that the majority of people who have lived on this planet over the last 2000 years...""
AGREED, and that's why I don't understand why some say that they should be punished the same as those who did hear it, understood it then died rejecting it.
..
2 Thess 1:8 AND 7 <<<
Interesting verses that I have not looked at for a while.
7 states coming with His angels indicates these verses apply to a different audience than today.
Let's exchange thoughts on this :)

 

[Lambano]

Paul was concerned with being DISQUALIFIED from PREACHING but NOT becoming UNsaved, UNsealed.

Did you read Galatians 5:21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

 

[markalan]

2 Thess 1:8 AND 7 <<<
Interesting verses that I have not looked at for a while.
7 states coming with His angels indicates these verses apply to a different audience than today.
Let's exchange thoughts on this :)

I did read the link you posted
Q386 : Does 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 Preclude a Pretribulational Rapture?

I think it helps to keep in mind that God allowed Paul (and all his servants) to think Jesus' return was imminent ... the epistles to the Thessalonians were possibly Paul's first epistles and he seems to think Jesus would return in that generation ("we who are alive and remain").

Another point is that we tend to think that an event like the second coming is instantaneous (sudden) when it may well be a process over time. The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come suddenly (Malachi 3:1).

What I am saying is that Jesus' return could be a process over time beginning with a resurrection and rapture which initiates the chain of events culminating in Revelation 19.

Having said that, I am inclined to believe the Church will go through the Tribulation ... though it is possible the elect (the overcomers in the Church - Rev 2 & 3) will be removed from the earth as Elijah was.

The only way I can reconcile the pre & post Tribulation arguments is to posit that there are two different groups as in the parable of the ten virgins.

And yes, some have told me that sitting on the fence one can lose his balance

 

[Lambano]

I see Mat 25 as the final judgment which does not apply to those who are born of the Spirit.
There are millions (billions probably) who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel during the past 2000 years.
I would say this is the group we see being judged in Mat 25.

I see here the possibility that the Son of Man may vindicate non-believers who nevertheless treated "the least of these my brothers and sisters" with compassion. That's apparently very important to Jesus.

I also see the frightening possibility that Christians who thought their belief in the death and resurrection of Christ would save them but who did not treat "the least of these my brothers and sisters" with compassion will be told "Go away; I never knew you."

We've been warned.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I did read the link you posted
Q386 : Does 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 Preclude a Pretribulational Rapture?

I think it helps to keep in mind that God allowed Paul (and all his servants) to think Jesus' return was imminent ... the epistles to the Thessalonians were possibly Paul's first epistles and he seems to think Jesus would return in that generation ("we who are alive and remain").

Another point is that we tend to think that an event like the second coming is instantaneous (sudden) when it may well be a process over time. The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come suddenly (Malachi 3:1).

What I am saying is that Jesus' return could be a process over time beginning with a resurrection and rapture which initiates the chain of events culminating in Revelation 19.

Having said that, I am inclined to believe the Church will go through the Tribulation ... though it is possible the elect (the overcomers in the Church - Rev 2 & 3) will be removed from the earth as Elijah was.

The only way I can reconcile the pre & post Tribulation arguments is to posit that there are two different groups as in the parable of the ten virgins.

And yes, some have told me that sitting on the fence one can lose his balance

""Another point is that we tend to think that an event like the second coming is instantaneous (sudden) when it may well be a process over time""
...
sudden/instant
1 Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
VERSUS
Process/gather
Matt 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
..
""I am inclined to believe the Church will go through the Tribulation""
Yes a 'church' will.
eg In that tribulation believers can lose their salvation c/- what they do or don't
eg Matt 25:41-46
Where does Paul teach the same for 'today' c/- not performing as in Matt 25:41-46