Conversation with An Atheist

[Episkopos]

I've been asking myself that very question.
I suppose I was hoping for something different in terms of answers, I thought that people here might have something to say that I'd never heard before.

I also thought that I might make a few friends and bust the myth that atheists are bad people who 'just want to sin'.
I'm not here to be disruptive or 'do the devil's work'.
I must admit that I've learned things here, I was expecting more of a United front and more agreement between Christians.
It's been a real eye opener.

The Christian faith has been described as a room with an elephant in it...with the lights turned off. People venture in and grope in the dark for what they have been told is an elephant. One person grabs hold of the trunk of the elephant and says to everyone hey, an elephant is long and feels like a big hose.

Another one from the other side of the room who has gotten hold of the tail cries out ...no! ...an elephant is short and like a rope.

So these argue and eventually each create a denomination to the exclusion of the "heretics" who don't agree with them.

If a person has actually seen the elephant or even ridden on one....well, that person's testimony will be seen by ALL as being wrong...being too "inclusive".

The truth is that we each are unique. God is looking to establish a relationship with each of us based on that uniqueness. God allows certain people to only see a certain part of the elephant..or else their understanding can only go so far. God can only show them as much as they are willing to know. An open mind and heart can learn more, but those are few. Most will never budge from their initial encounter or lack thereof.

If you are trying to learn the truth from people, how will you know who is just representing a faction and who is speaking the WHOLE truth? Well, that's on you.

My advice is to look beyond people into something deeper, trying to understand why people are so divided. If this was a fiction then why would people be so divided? God is so much greater than us and it's normal that something so great would have to be divided up according to the limitations of the human mind. The truth is held in a balance that stretches the mind into having a whole other mind....the mind of Christ.
Can people learn the truth without the divisiveness and faulty conclusions?

Not unless one fears the Lord and learns humility. :)

 

[Taken]

I rest my case.

Hi Manchurian…

I fully get your observed point, yet hope you do not give up on that account.

It is puzzling to be curious about a whole group professing to have a common belief, and see the repetitive disagreement amongst them.

Everyone is an individual, and learns at a different pace. Some have gained more knowledge than others and definitely some have arrived at greater understanding than others…And thus, the conflicts.

Your journey is solely About You…and a step by step … curiosity, want, wonderment, desire, to have a one on one relationship with the creator and maker of This World and its creations.

Just taking it down a notch… when YOU have or will conclude you MIGHT want a one on one relationship with one other person…
You don’t require scientists, philosophers, neighbors, politicians, preachers, etc. stats, opinions, platitudes, buzz in your ear debating your interest.

Small steps, bit by bit for accomplishing… getting to “Know” the Lord God…rather than
Multiple Opinions “About” The Lord God.

My settled position IS I DO have a Creator…and I DO have a Maker…and I DID have a curiosity ABOUT EACH…and Over a course of my interest, time, effort…set out on my own personal journey, step by step, to discover a relationship with THEM was possible and being Formed…and bit by bit BY Him, OF Him, THROUGH Him…came into the understanding OF HIM.<—->
Ie.
Beyond the CREATION…(I did NOT Witness, but certainly Can Observe, Creation IS before our Seeing, Hearing, Smelling, Tasting, Touching…)
And The MAKING of Creation Continues…(Manifesting in Knowledge, Discoveries, Experiences, Likes, Dislikes…
Toying in our “logical Carnal Minds”…that change, change, change.
Yet…
The goal, and REAL Truth, Big Picture IS When the “Making”…Becomes Manifested in an individuals OWN Heart …—-> unwavering TRUTH.

And Point IS…again…
It IS about You, Your desire, Your journey.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

I've been asking myself that very question.
I suppose I was hoping for something different in terms of answers, I thought that people here might have something to say that I'd never heard before.

Hmmm. Maybe it’s not the answers. Do you recall The Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed in Matthew 13? Once I came to Christ, I was amazed at how profound Hebrews 4:12 is, the word is alive; passages I read many times suddenly had new meaning, connections and applications. St. Augustine wrote of this in Confessions. It blew my mind over and over again.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.​

I’m not qualified to answer why some have this experience and others don’t. The parable of the seed informs us that the divine answer is simply not received by some. I don’t know why some don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear. It’s a sad mystery.

My best friend has been a believer all his life and was never an enemy of Christ, like I was. Yet, he never had the Holy Spirit seal him, reach out to him, as it did to me. He never experienced Hebrews 4:12 (namely because he never read the Bible). This is frustrating for all and for us believers, we rest in the idea that it is all to God’s glory.

Perhaps one day, you will have a testimony like mine; that you yearned to hear God, stopped believing because it never happened, and later in life, when you weren’t expecting it or looking for it, it happened to you.

I also thought that I might make a few friends and bust the myth that atheists are bad people who 'just want to sin'.

I never heard that myth. In my experience, Atheists think deeply about morality and strive to live good lives. (They just don’t define good as the Bible does, which is, it is impossible to please God without faith).

I hope one day soon we consider each other friends. 3 decades ago I taught religious education for teens. Made up my own syllabus of what I wanted to teach them. It was a combination of moral issues and different schools of thought. While it was a Protestant church (UUA), I had one class led by a Christian in the church, another by my friends mom, who was a Catholic deacon, and another by my friend who was an Atheist, a devotee of Ayn Rand’s philosophy of Objectivism.

I must admit that I've learned things here, I was expecting more of a United front and more agreement between Christians.
It's been a real eye opener.

With some 40,000 denominations, one must admit there is actually tremendous diversity of thought among Christian sects. (I consider this a divine flowering of the Holy Spirit. More on that later). I’m grateful there is not a doctrinal purity test in the Bible. (The closest thing to it might be Romans 10:9.)

As I’ve grown in my faith, I’ve been deeply troubled by IDOLATRY ubiquitously ingrained in Christendom. For years, I struggled understand the 2C. Then I realized, it is putting anything manmade above God. In the non-Christian world, the 2 great IDOLS are sex and money. (We can discuss how sexuality in relationships is manmade later but everyone knows ‘sex sells.’) In Christendom, the great IDOL is doctrine. This is the negative side of 40K denominations. I have a funny joke involving doctrine and an atheist, if you’re interested.

 

[Laurina]

I have a funny joke involving doctrine and an atheist, if you’re interested.

I'd like to hear it!

 

[Mancunian]

The Christian faith has been described as a room with an elephant in it...with the lights turned off. People venture in and grope in the dark for what they have been told is an elephant. One person grabs hold of the trunk of the elephant and says to everyone hey, an elephant is long and feels like a big hose.

Another one from the other side of the room who has gotten hold of the tail cries out ...no! ...an elephant is short and like a rope.

So these argue and eventually each create a denomination to the exclusion of the "heretics" who don't agree with them.

If a person has actually seen the elephant or even ridden on one....well, that person's testimony will be seen by ALL as being wrong...being too "inclusive".

The truth is that we each are unique. God is looking to establish a relationship with each of us based on that uniqueness. God allows certain people to only see a certain part of the elephant..or else their understanding can only go so far. God can only show them as much as they are willing to know. An open mind and heart can learn more, but those are few. Most will never budge from their initial encounter or lack thereof.

If you are trying to learn the truth from people, how will you know who is just representing a faction and who is speaking the WHOLE truth? Well, that's on you.

My advice is to look beyond people into something deeper, trying to understand why people are so divided. If this was a fiction then why would people be so divided? God is so much greater than us and it's normal that something so great would have to be divided up according to the limitations of the human mind. The truth is held in a balance that stretches the mind into having a whole other mind....the mind of Christ.
Can people learn the truth without the divisiveness and faulty conclusions?

Not unless one fears the Lord and learns humility. :)

I'm going to take your advice.

 

[Mancunian]

I'd like to hear it!

Me too!

 

[Wrangler]

Atheism isn't a faith.

The Supreme Court ruled Atheism is a faith, a religion. Certainly, it is a world view, guiding one’s thoughts.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm going to take your advice.

Peace to you and may the Lord bless you in your travels.

 

[Wrangler]

I have a funny joke involving doctrine and an atheist, if you’re interested.

I'd like to hear it!

Me too!

There was a man (M1) on a ledge of a 10-story building ready to jump to his death when a second man (M2) opened a nearby window to talk him out of it.

M2. What are you doing on the ledge young man?

M1. It’s a cruel, cruel world and I can’t take it anymore.

M2. What do you mean? You have so much to live for!

M1. Like what? What do I have to live for?

M2. Well, are you a believer or an Atheist?

M1. I’m a believer.

M2. Well, thank heavens, so am I. Are you a Pagan or Christ follower?

M1. Christ follower.

M2. Same as me, friend. Are you Protestant or Catholic?

M1. I’m a Protestant.

M2. Well, that is indeed a relief. So am I son. Are you a Baptist or non-Baptist.

M1. I’m a Baptist.

M2. Thanks be to Mary, Joseph, Peter and all the saints. We’re practically brothers! Do you belong to the Baptist Convention of 1848 or the Convention of 1878.

M1. I belong to the Baptist Convention of 1848.

M2. Die Heretic! (As he hurls him off the ledge to his death).

 

[Taken]

The Supreme Court ruled Atheism is a faith, a religion. Certainly, it is a world view, guiding one’s thoughts.

Ya well… we know Court rulings of men, are simply Opinions of an exclusive group in black robes … not much different that a panel sitting in a news station rendering their Opinions for interested viewers.

In my sideline Opinion…
I’m thinking if we had availability of a panel come down to us from Heaven wearing white robes … their Opinions would all agree…

Gods Divisions from the beginning have been complete opposites…
up / down
in / out
yes / no
with / without

belief / no belief
faith / no faith

It’s the journey, whereby each individual discovers their own standing… or easily any man can “attach to themselves, whatever LABEL society offers.”

Atheism is the complete opposite of Faith…
And Faith, in, of, through, of God…
Is a curious thing…
* Given to men…For the simplicity of Reading His Word…
* Given to men…in measurements. Meaning Read a little, Receive a little Faith.

The curiosity IS… the beginning has nothing to do with “understanding”…

And THAT ^^ is a natural humans Road-block…
Thinking Mindfully…WE should, WE want “understanding”, before we have opened our hearts to the Knowledge.

To Mancunian…
* Scripture is not an Easy or necessarily a satisfying book to read like a novel cover to cover.
* Scripture can be started / read in many ways, to capture and hold your interest.
* A particular topic…ex. sharing, a mans role, a woman’s role, about children, animals, plants, helping, etc.
* A particular person of interest, and learn about them.
* A random eyes closed, flip pages, stop, read, see if you find an interesting nugget that parallels something in your daily life.

Point is; no pressure. No buzz in your ears, no observing this person and that person both claiming virtuous faith while confusingly hurling daggers at each-other.

Glory to God
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Ya well… we know Court rulings of men, are simply Opinions

I agree with this decision. We have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

 

[Mancunian]

Well, I think my time here has been well spent.
I've seen the extreme views and the more liberal ones.
I want to thank you all for your contributions, I need to study more that's for sure and maybe open my mind to things that I've never really considered.
A special thank you to @Wrangler for giving me the opportunity to voice my opinions without the usual response, and good luck to you all in the future.

Chris

 

[Taken]

@Mancunian -

Hey… just a mention, may be or not of your interest to consider…

I have a daughter that was born profoundly deaf, (3rd child) and of course teaching regular daily things was challenging, which paled in comparison of trying to teach her about God / Jesus. Fortunately she learned to read very young and the hundreds of trips to the library and thought I would go broke buying her Toys Books that she constantly wanted more and more.

Point…trying to teach her About God/ Jesus was a fail. She could not relate. Huff at the attempts. Said it was like trying to make her hear, and made no sense.

We were in a resale shop one day. She had a stack of books picked out. I glanced through the books, checking for appropriate material… and to my surprise saw a book, called:
A Case for Christ.
She read it, and for her it made a turning point impact. It didn’t turn her into some kind of mini-prophet or such, but did something to her turn about her consideration / perspective.

Don’t know if you have heard of it… really could be easily read in a few hours, inexpensive.

Just sharing.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[RLT63]

Hi Mancunian,

I too was wanting to converse with you. As I recall, I as a Christian could not partake in some other thread.

Life in this world is very strange to say the least, and the fact that we are born into it with only hearsay to go by, does indeed present its own problems. Sometimes especially the religious hearsay.

I have a place to start that I like to refer to, if it helps:

Imagine that we are all born into a large building or room and no one has ever been outside or seen what is outside. Imagine that in the large room are different people, some born leaders, some followers, some scientists, some learned, some philosophers, some teachers, some mere workers, and many more. Some with big ideas of what is outside beyond the big room--none of whom have ever been or seen outside.​

​

How then would anyone actually know anything about what is outside? Sure...scientists, the learned, and philosophers could speculate and even extrapolate based on their great knowledge of what was inside. But none of them would actually know. How then would any actual knowledge of what is outside ever come to be "known" inside?​

​

The only way...is if the knowledge were to come in from the outside.​

​

And that--is what the Bible includes. Yes, there is a bunch of infighting (within), but there is a reason. Imagine, or suppose someone popped up and claimed-- "I have heard from the outside...and it is this, this, and this. I tell you the truth!" Can you imagine a fight breaking out? I sure can--in fact there are a bunch of those fights right here on Christianity Board!​

​

But I couldn't imagine any of that...unless it happened to me--and it did. Like many in the history of the world, God has actually opened up a view to what is outside--beyond all that we can otherwise know--and we to whom He has, are witnesses. And the Bible is a collection of such witnesses down through the ages.

What about everyone else? Well, not knowing is a test, a way of dividing good from evil amongst the overall mix. It's simply a choice and which we gravitate to. That's it! And then, yes, there is a bunch of information to be learned and understood. But you gotta know, if any of that is true...the answers are not just given out to those leaning the wrong way. That should make sense.

Anyway, I really didn't want to butt into Wrangler's conversation with you. So, let me know it you want to talk further. I am sure if you quote and comment or have questions of others, Wrangler will not object, but may have his own things to say and chime in.

All the best to you!

Allegory of the cave - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rockerduck]

The difference between religions and science is....
Science never stops searching for answers to the big questions... Where did we come from? How did the universe begin?
Religions claim to know the answers already.

There is no difference, both seek something and both of which came from God and was Created by God. Scientists search for answers that already exist and most are ignorant of their findings, then modify it later, then again later.

 

[Taken]

Wrangler, kudos and respect for this thread.
Applause.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken