For WHAT purpose Does the Lord Descend FROM High Heavens TO lower Heavens Clouds?
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1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Glory to God,
Taken
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Glory to God,
Taken
Acts 1:10-11
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?
this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Being "caught up" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) is for the saints in their resurrected bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52, Philippians 3:21) to meet Jesus Christ in the realm we call heaven.
Jesus "descends" to meet us in His resurrected body ... He descends from the realm where God alone can dwell (1 Timothy 6:15-16).
God is an invisible Spirit (1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Corinthians 15:45) so we can only see Him when He manifests His presence in a corporeal form in the realm (or dimension) in which we will dwell (Colossians 1:15).
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
To fetch his bride.
Mat 25
Vivid depiction of the bride meeting the groom, then going to the fathers house.
Mat 25
Vivid depiction of the bride meeting the groom, then going to the fathers house.
John 14:1-3
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so,
I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also."
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so,
I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also."
ScottA
Well-Known Member
The image or description is a parable or allegory, not real in the sense that we should expect to actually look up and see Jesus coming in the clouds we see regularly in the sky. That goes for a lot of other scripture also.
So, God being "higher" and the world being "lower", is rather a defining point of His greatness compared with our simple nature. Between Him and us, the great divide or gulf, the veil as it were, is perhaps better described as a dimensional difference--but that too makes for errors in understanding and some taking it literally--so, don't go there either. God is just greater and beyond our own realm of--well...just everything. Between us then, He describes a separation that needs to be "cross"ed, as if it were a cloud of mystery...and some have even called the crossing a rapturous experience, and rightly so--because it is the difference between Heaven and Earth, and time and eternity. So, a "cloud" it is.
But the "purpose"...is that after us metaphorically descending into darkness and sin, God comes down to rescue us, that where He is we might be also.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Here you make it sound like we shall not "be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect", but will remain some lower form of "corporeal", "resurrected body"; not One with Him, but some hybrid physical being?
The purpose of the Lord to descend from the high heavens to the lower heavens/ Clouds is …
For the Lord to Receive / UP to Him…
* The Prepared…(soul, spirit, body)
* The Saved By, Through, Of Christ…
* AKA, His Church, His Bride…
Glory to God,
Taken
Perfect, as in sinless, yes ... but I do not believe we will ever be as God in His omnipotence, omniscience, & omnipresence.
We will always remain a "lower form" than God, worshiping and serving Him throughout eternity.
Not sure what you mean by "hybrid physical being" ... but I believe our soul/spirit will eternally dwell in a resurrected body "like His glorious body" (Phil 3:21).
I like the way the way the Amplified Bible expands on Rev 22:3
"There will no longer exist anything that is cursed [because sin and illness and death are gone]; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve and worship Him [with great awe and joy and loving devotion]".
I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this matter.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Your first sentence above is a "belief" statement--and that's okay, it's just not correct. We are to be One with the Son and the Father, no longer servants (John 17:21 and 15:15). Which leaves only the angels as servants for eternity, meaning servants also to us in God.
"Like His glorious body" does not refer to Jesus' body after He rose from the grave, of even as He ascended, but rather His body when He returns--which is "the glory of His Father" who "is spirit" (Matthew 16:27 and John 4:24). Meaning therefore: He returns in spirit. That is how it is written.
So are you saying we will be equal to God in every way?
I disagree with your interpretation of Rev 22:3-5 being angels.
All the pronouns ( they, their) refer to "his servants" who "reign forever and ever".
"No longer will there be anything accursed,
but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it,
and his servants will worship him.
They will see his face,
and his name will be on their foreheads.
And night will be no more.
They will need no light of lamp or sun,
for the Lord God will be their light,
and they will reign forever and ever."
Do you believe that Jesus literally ascended in His resurrected (glorified) body?
How do you understand the words in Acts 1:11
“Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven?
This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,
will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
ScottA
Well-Known Member
We're splitting hairs.
Indeed, the body is never the Head, and thus looks to the Head and does the will of the Head. But being One, means no separation and doing the will of the Head is without servitude. "As the angels" has its own meaning also. But does not mean "as the angels" separate in the way that the angels will always be--which is to be our fate also as His body.
Revelation 22:3-5 uses language that are easily seen as us separate--but that is only baby-talk or world speak for the sake of what is yet only imagined. But the rest of scripture speaks of a Oneness uniquely as One and the Same with the Son and the Father. Just as the Son now serves the Father, but then will be served with the Father, we who are in Christ (in the Son) will no longer serve in the same way as we might now define it.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
It's a matter of interpretation.
Many interpret "in the same way/manner" as He rose from the grave, as flesh. Which anyone considering and reconciling all scripture should not consider true or valid, as it is written "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
Contrary to popular belief, Jesus disappearing into a "cloud" was His leaving behind His flesh and His spirit returning "to God who gave it" as it is also written. This is what we too can expect if we "follow" Him. Which also defines the first and second resurrection: The first being receiving the Holy Spirit while still in the flesh (born again), and the second returning to God in spirit, many after natural death, and others "[we] who are alive and remain" just as Jesus "the firstfruits" did.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
That is against the testimony of Jesus.
If he was not fully deity and fully man,John would still be weeping in Rev 5.
It says " no man was found in heaven or earth worthy to open the seals".
There is no other God- man in the universe.
Jesus is fully God and fully man.
All flesh is resurrected at the GWTJ.
They all enter eternity bodily
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I want to be kind, but what you have said cannot be reconciled with all scripture, which I explained. You echoing what is false but commonly believed doesn't change the truth of the matter: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
It is as I said.
As for Jesus being fully God and fully man--this is true, but not the way you assume. Jesus was God since "before the foundation of the world", but born of a women, He "was made in the likeness of men" which was merely "the image of God" as are we (fully) in the flesh.
As for the resurrection, the [flesh] "dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it", and "all these things will be dissolved." Leaving only the spirit. As it is written, "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
What purpose?
I was thinking this morning that freedom always comes at a cost. And it is also a time of testing and proving one's faith.
When God told Moses to set the children of Israel free from Egypt, they didn't realize the challenges that would be before them to prove them whether they would trust Him or not.
Egypt the symbol today of globalization and control over everything we think and do, would be challenged.
Would we let go of our comforts for freedom?
There were many that complained and wanted to turn back. They complained about the lack of food, the lack of water, the long and winding road.
It didn't have to be 40 years of testing, they brought that on themselves.
All they had to do was Trust God.
Why did God come down in a dark cloud and light upon a mountain to give the people Hiis law and what was expected of them?
Why did they return to the false idolatry of Egypt?
God made a promise. If you believe in me and keep my Word I will lead you to a land flowing with milk and honey.
But in order to get there you will have to go through famine, pestilence, wars and even death.
Think about those 40 years the children of Israel traveled through the wilderness led by one man whom God had chosen, Moses.
A lot of people didn't like Moses. They thought he was leading them into a trap, a death trap.
It was better for us when we were in Egypt. We ate to to the full. We were regarded as slaves and treated as slaves but we knew what the future held and our children's future.
And this man has come with a message from a God we do not know that says he will lead us to freedom.
He will break the chain of Egypt and we will learn to live by God alone.
That's where we are today. Children in the wilderness. Some wanting to return to the ways of Egypt. Comfortable in our own chains of slavery to the system and in debt to a system that was created with the very purpose of keeping us comfortably numb.
The future can be scary if you have no faith.
You might go hungry, have to pay higher for gas or food. Unable to see the end of the tunnel because the darkness is blocking the light.
And so we complain and cry and mourn the loss of our comfortable numbness and are shaken into a reality that real freedom comes at a cost. And that cost is Trust in God.
Have faith.
Hugs
I was thinking this morning that freedom always comes at a cost. And it is also a time of testing and proving one's faith.
When God told Moses to set the children of Israel free from Egypt, they didn't realize the challenges that would be before them to prove them whether they would trust Him or not.
Egypt the symbol today of globalization and control over everything we think and do, would be challenged.
Would we let go of our comforts for freedom?
There were many that complained and wanted to turn back. They complained about the lack of food, the lack of water, the long and winding road.
It didn't have to be 40 years of testing, they brought that on themselves.
All they had to do was Trust God.
Why did God come down in a dark cloud and light upon a mountain to give the people Hiis law and what was expected of them?
Why did they return to the false idolatry of Egypt?
God made a promise. If you believe in me and keep my Word I will lead you to a land flowing with milk and honey.
But in order to get there you will have to go through famine, pestilence, wars and even death.
Think about those 40 years the children of Israel traveled through the wilderness led by one man whom God had chosen, Moses.
A lot of people didn't like Moses. They thought he was leading them into a trap, a death trap.
It was better for us when we were in Egypt. We ate to to the full. We were regarded as slaves and treated as slaves but we knew what the future held and our children's future.
And this man has come with a message from a God we do not know that says he will lead us to freedom.
He will break the chain of Egypt and we will learn to live by God alone.
That's where we are today. Children in the wilderness. Some wanting to return to the ways of Egypt. Comfortable in our own chains of slavery to the system and in debt to a system that was created with the very purpose of keeping us comfortably numb.
The future can be scary if you have no faith.
You might go hungry, have to pay higher for gas or food. Unable to see the end of the tunnel because the darkness is blocking the light.
And so we complain and cry and mourn the loss of our comfortable numbness and are shaken into a reality that real freedom comes at a cost. And that cost is Trust in God.
Have faith.
Hugs
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