Why Christians Call Mary the Mother of God.

[David1701]

Good question.
So do we go with that
or with what scripture states?

YOU are the one presenting all sorts of problems with the CC because it does not use scripture but adheres to its own teachings.

You are doing what you accuse the CC of doing.

Scripture states that Matthias was chosen as an Apostle.

Acts 1:21-26
21“So now we must choose a replacement for Judas from among the men who were with us the entire time we were traveling with the Lord Jesus— 22from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus’ resurrection.”

23So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they all prayed, “O Lord, you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen 25as an apostle to replace Judas in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and Matthias was selected to become an apostle with the other eleven.


° They chose from among those who were with the Apostles the entire time of traveling with Jesus.
° They all prayed. Prayer was always offered to God...not just after Pentecost.
° Matthias was selected to become an Apostle with the other eleven.


Skimmed through.
It does not have to be a choice between Paul and Matthias.
It could be both.

SMH!

Never mind...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here is list of reasons why Paul is far more likely to have been God's replacement than Matthias.

"Factors Which Question the Actions of the Apostles

(1) The action taken was prior to Pentecost, before the Holy Spirit had come upon the apostles to guide them.

(2) The apostles were “taking action” when Jesus had specifically commanded them to wait, until the Spirit had come on them.

(3) Jesus had chosen all of the other apostles (cf. 1:2), and He had given them no command to choose a replacement for Judas.

(4) While there is a minimal reference to “the twelve” later on, Matthias is never again specifically referred to in the New Testament. Why is so much attention giving to the choice of a man who is then ignored throughout the rest of the New Testament?

(5) The context surrounding this incident does not suggest that it was a decision prompted by a command of the Lord, a biblical imperative, or the guidance of the Spirit. I have mentally labeled this section, “Doing What Comes Naturally.” It seems that the apostles were, along with the rest, acting on their own, apart from any clear imperative or command. In the immediate context, the disciples seem preoccupied, and Jesus had to turn their attention toward things other than what they had in mind. The angels had to spur the group on, rather than to stand on the mount, looking into the sky. The immediately preceding context suggests that the apostles still had things out of focus, while the immediately following context (Pentecost) informs us that the Spirit’s coming was not yet, and thus suggests that the apostles were acting on their own initiative, and not that of God.

(6) The motivation of the apostles might seem suspect, when considered in light of their past thinking and actions. You will recall from the Gospel accounts that the disciples were eager for the kingdom to come, but from a motivation of self-interest, from a desire for position, power, and prestige. They were even competitive with one another. Why then the urgency for the position of the twelfth apostle to be filled? It could be suggested that it was because the disciples felt the kingdom could not come until there were twelve apostles in place, so that there would be twelve thrones filled in order that the twelve tribes could be judged. This would be a reasonable conclusion, based upon our Lord’s words to the disciples in Luke 22:30, spoken shortly before His betrayal, arrest, and crucifixion.

(7) While Peter’s interpretation of the Old Testament Scriptures to which he referred may well have been sound, the inferences he drew from them are possibly more suspect. Jesus Himself linked Old Testament prophecy to His betrayal by Judas. He cited Psalm 41:9 in John 13:18 and 26. Peter seems to allude to the text in Psalm 41:9 cited by our Lord, but he specifically quoted from two passages from the Psalms. The first citation was from Psalm 69:25; the second was from Psalm 109:8. If Peter’s interpretation of these two texts as being prophetic is correct, I am not certain his interpretation necessarily follows from them. In the first citation from Psalm 69, the text Peter cited is this, “LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE, AND LET NO MAN DWELL IN IT.”

(8) Now from the account of the fate of Judas, which Luke has given to us parenthetically in verses 18 and 19, who was it that made the homestead of Judas desolate? It was surely not the disciples nor was it anyone else who consciously did what they did in order to obey this prophecy. God fulfilled this prophecy. And so, when we come to the second statement, “HIS OFFICE LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE,” should we assume that there is anything called for here on the part of the apostles? I think not. If God fulfilled the first “LET …” from Psalm 69, why should the disciples feel obliged to fulfill the second “LET …” from Psalm 109? If the second citation were fulfilled in the same way the first was fulfilled, the disciples would not need to have done anything. I am not certain the Old Testament text requires anything of the disciples, but Peter and the others felt it did.

(9) The process used to choose Judas’ replacement seems somewhat suspect. At best, one can say that the selection of Matthias was carried out in an Old Testament fashion by the casting of lots. This method was never given to the disciples, nor is it ever found again in the New Testament as a means of determining who God has chosen to hold any office. The casting of lots allowed for a decision to be reached totally apart from divine intervention. Of course God can and does determine the outcome of the casting of lots (Proverbs 16:33), but is this the way God intended this decision to be made? The candidates were nominated, and the two candidates put before the Lord were chosen by the group, based on the requirements they themselves determined. They allowed God to choose between the two candidates. Somehow this seems sub-standard to me. The method employed by the group seems to put God in a box and to limit Him to the options men have placed before Him.

(10) Luke’s argument in Acts seems to challenge this action, because in Acts Paul’s apostleship seems to be affirmed at the expense of that of Matthias. Paul constantly stressed that his apostleship was the sovereign will and purpose of God, and not of man. He also spoke of himself as an equal with the rest of the apostles.3 And remember, Paul was also a witness of the resurrection of Christ, for he was stopped short by a vision of the Lord Himself, risen from the dead. If Paul’s apostleship is affirmed and Matthias’s apostleship is ignored, there is good reason to question the legitimacy of Matthias’ apostleship. There is at least some evidence to challenge the action taken by the apostles due to this emphasis on Paul’s apostleship."

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-getting-ahead-god-acts-11-26

Uhhh, NOT exactly.
Paul waasn't the ONLY one apart from the 12 who was called an "Apostle" . . . .

- In Acts 14:14, we see that title of “Apostle” given to both Paul and BARNABAS.
- in Gal. 1:19, Paul refers to JAMES (adelphos of the Lord) as an “Apostle”.
- In Phil. 2:25, EPAPHRODITUS is called an "Apostle" of the Philippian church.

Paul was NOT the successor of Judas. Matthias was.

Acts 1:14 tells us that they “gathered together CONSTANTLY in prayer”.
Their choice of Matthias was ordained by GOD from the beginning.

Sounds to me like you FORGOT that they received the Holy Spirit prior to this ono the night of Jesus’s Resurrection:
John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he BREATHED on them and said to them, “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

This was PRIOR to Pentecost.
What they didn’t do until Pentecost was to work miracles . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have never said that Mary is not the mother of God (in the sense that Jesus is God and man). That, as I've explained, is not the problem that I have with the R.C. expression "Mother of God".

Then, what IS your problem with it?

Seems pretty basic to me:
- Jesus is God.
- Mary is His Mother.
Ergo, Msry is the Mother of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have never said that Mary is not the mother of God (in the sense that Jesus is God and man). That, as I've explained, is not the problem that I have with the R.C. expression "Mother of God".

What is the problem David?
Mary was referred to as the mother of God even in the early church.
We have evidence of this in writings found in about 250AD.

Maybe it's just discriminatory?

 

[JimKnox]

Of course I know those things; but, they are irrelevant to this discussion.

Peter's criteria for being an apostle included:

Acts 1:21,22 (KJV)
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Paul had obviously not companied with the apostles; in fact, he persecuted them! There is also no evidence that Matthias was a witness to anyone about anything; but, Paul's witness is in much of the N.T..

This is one reason why it's risky to get your doctrine from Acts, without comparing the epistles: Acts is, primarily, an inspired record of events, not a doctrinal book. The apostles sometimes made mistakes (e.g. Peter had to be rebuked openly for hypocrisy; and there was a sharp contention between Paul and Barnabas, leading to them splitting up their ministry partnership).

Why are you so determined to be wrong and ignore Scripture?
The Holy Spirit listed Mathias as among the Apostles and disciples who accompanied Christ from the beginning and tight up to His resurrection.
You are openly claiming that the Holy Spirit made a mistake?
Check yourself, friend.

 

[Rockerduck]

Why are you so determined to be wrong and ignore Scripture?
The Holy Spirit listed Mathias as among the Apostles and disciples who accompanied Christ from the beginning and tight up to His resurrection.
You are openly claiming that the Holy Spirit made a mistake?
Check yourself, friend.

Peter made the mistake. Jesus plainly told them that He chose them. (John 15:16)and(John 6:70). Peter and the eleven presented God with two, that they chose. Think about it, Peter telling God they made the choice between two and asking God to pick one of their choices. Jesus chose Paul, not Matthias. Only Jesus can choose. Peter usurped the authority of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Peter made the mistake. Jesus plainly told them that He chose them. (John 15:16)and(John 6:70). Peter and the eleven presented God with two, that they chose. Think about it, Peter telling God they made the choice between two and asking God to pick one of their choices. Jesus chose Paul, not Matthias. Only Jesus can choose. Peter usurped the authority of God.

Peter might have usurped the authority of God even in his letters.

I declare and insist that they be removed from the New Testament.

I think that Jesus had already returned back to His heavenly home when Matthias was chosen....
but I could be wrong...

Have been reading Peter lately.

 

[Rockerduck]

Peter might have usurped the authority of God even in his letters.

I declare and insist that they be removed from the New Testament.

I think that Jesus had already returned back to His heavenly home when Matthias was chosen....
but I could be wrong...

Have been reading Peter lately.

Jesus did ascend back to Heaven, but that didn't stop Jesus from choosing Paul on the road to Damascus. Just think, He knew exactly where Paul was and where he was going and the time of day. He sees the same thing in all of us and knows what we will do before we do. Let go, and let God do His work in you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus did ascend back to Heaven, but that didn't stop Jesus from choosing Paul on the road to Damascus. Just think, He knew exactly where Paul was and where he was going and the time of day. He sees the same thing in all of us and knows what we will do before we do. Let go, and let God do His work in you.

Actually, I let go many years ago.
You might not have been around for me to inform you.

It's very dangerous to say that Peter was mistaken about something.
His letters are in the NT.
Do you think he might have made some mistakes there too?

There are 15 Apostles mentioned in the New Testament.

POSSIBLY another 2 but there are doubts.
(Andronicus and Junia)

We either trust scripture or we do not.

 

[Rockerduck]

Actually, I let go many years ago.
You might not have been around for me to inform you.

It's very dangerous to say that Peter was mistaken about something.
His letters are in the NT.
Do you think he might have made some mistakes there too?

There are 15 Apostles mentioned in the New Testament.

POSSIBLY another 2 but there are doubts.
(Andronicus and Junia)

We either trust scripture or we do not.

The only Apostles are who Jesus personally chose Himself. Peter made mistakes, denying Christ 3 times and telling Jesus He won't die on a Cross, only to be loudly rebuked by Jesus and saying "get thee behind me Satan". Matthew 16:23. All this is in the Scriptures and you can trust them. They are in plain sight to read.

 

[GodsGrace]

The only Apostles are who Jesus personally chose Himself. Peter made mistakes, denying Christ 3 times and telling Jesus He won't die on a Cross, only to be loudly rebuked by Jesus and saying "get thee behind me Satan". Matthew 16:23. All this is in the Scriptures and you can trust them. They are in plain sight to read.

OK RD
So I'll trust scripture
just not what Peter wrote since he made so many mistakes.

 

[Rockerduck]

OK RD
So I'll trust scripture
just not what Peter wrote since he made so many mistakes.

To be fair, Peter made his mistakes before Pentecost. After he received power from the Holy Spirit, he turned out alright. Especially his last letter before his death.

 

[GodsGrace]

To be fair, Peter made his mistakes before Pentecost. After he received power from the Holy Spirit, he turned out alright. Especially his last letter before his death.

That's good to know since history teaches that Peter was the Bishop of Rome...
the other 4 Bishops of other areas,,,always referred to HIM when there was a question about doctrine.

He also declared that new conversts were not to be circumcised.
And James and the others agreed.


Acts 15:6-11
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

 

[Rockerduck]

That's good to know since history teaches that Peter was the Bishop of Rome...
the other 4 Bishops of other areas,,,always referred to HIM when there was a question about doctrine.

He also declared that new conversts were not to be circumcised.
And James and the others agreed.


Acts 15:6-11
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

This is the Jerusalem council. I always wondered why the Apostle Peter waited till after there was "much debate"V7, before he spoke up and not sooner.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is the Jerusalem council. I always wondered why the Apostle Peter waited till after there was "much debate"V7, before he spoke up and not sooner.

Because that’s the way that Councils are handled – to this day.

Councils are usually convened because of an issue that that has arisen in the Church and is being batted around and debated - just like ini the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The Bishop of Rome doesn‘t just automatically rule on the matter without discussion and debate. Otherwise – there would be no need for a Council. He’s not a King – just the successor to the Chief Apostle.

We know that Peter was the Chief Apostle from SCRIPTURE - and NOT only Tradition . . .

- Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).
- Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).
- Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).
- Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2. - even though he was NOT the first chosen.
- Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13).
- Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7).
- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22).
- Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) .
- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11).
- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
- Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
- Peter's name is mentioned more often than ALL the other disciples combined.

ALL of this is evidence of his Primacy . . .

 

[Rockerduck]

Because that’s the way that Councils are handled – to this day.

Councils are usually convened because of an issue that that has arisen in the Church and is being batted around and debated - just like ini the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The Bishop of Rome doesn‘t just automatically rule on the matter without discussion and debate. Otherwise – there would be no need for a Council. He’s not a King – just the successor to the Chief Apostle.

We know that Peter was the Chief Apostle from SCRIPTURE - and NOT only Tradition . . .

- Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).
- Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).
- Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).
- Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2. - even though he was NOT the first chosen.
- Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13).
- Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7).
- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22).
- Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) .
- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11).
- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
- Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
- Peter's name is mentioned more often than ALL the other disciples combined.

ALL of this is evidence of his Primacy . . .

IF the Apostle Peter was all that, then he had the authority to speak first and to end the debate, not wait. Oh, and why was it James who spoke and made the ruling. It appears James was in charge.

 

[Taken]

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, says to Mary:

"And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

In Luke's Gospel, "Lord" is a divine title:

• Luke 1:17 - "the Lord their God"
• Luke 1:76 - "go before the Lord"
• Luke 2:11 - "Christ the Lord"

Later, the Apostle Thomas says directly to Jesus:

"My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

Elizabeth calls Mary "the mother of my Lord."
Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God."

Thomas makes explicit what Elizabeth had already recognized: the child Mary carried is God the Son incarnate.

That is why Christians call Mary the Mother of God.

The title does not mean Mary created God, existed before God, or is greater than God.

It means the one She bore is truly God in the flesh.

Ultimately, "Mother of God" is not primarily a statement about Mary. It is a confession about who Jesus is.

Yet…

Heb 7:
[3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.


Religious institutions Are Tasked with teaching the Truth.

 

[Taken]

Because that’s the way that Councils are handled – to this day.

Councils are usually convened because of an issue that that has arisen in the Church and is being batted around and debated - just like ini the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The Bishop of Rome doesn‘t just automatically rule on the matter without discussion and debate. Otherwise – there would be no need for a Council. He’s not a King – just the successor to the Chief Apostle.

We know that Peter was the Chief Apostle from SCRIPTURE - and NOT only Tradition . . .

- Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).
- Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).
- Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).
- Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2. - even though he was NOT the first chosen.
- Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13).
- Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7).
- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22).
- Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) .
- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11).
- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
- Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
- Peter's name is mentioned more often than ALL the other disciples combined.

ALL of this is evidence of his Primacy . . .

Peter, Peter, Peter…comedic spoof.

 

[JimKnox]

Because that’s the way that Councils are handled – to this day.

Councils are usually convened because of an issue that that has arisen in the Church and is being batted around and debated - just like ini the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). The Bishop of Rome doesn‘t just automatically rule on the matter without discussion and debate. Otherwise – there would be no need for a Council. He’s not a King – just the successor to the Chief Apostle.

We know that Peter was the Chief Apostle from SCRIPTURE - and NOT only Tradition . . .

- Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).
- Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).
- Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).
- Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2. - even though he was NOT the first chosen.
- Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13).
- Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7).
- Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22).
- Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) .
- Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
- Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11).
- Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
- Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
- Peter's name is mentioned more often than ALL the other disciples combined.

ALL of this is evidence of his Primacy . . .

And yet God had Paul write the majority of the New Testament which outlines Church Doctrine.
Peter was NOT preeminent.

 

[BreadOfLife]

IF the Apostle Peter was all that, then he had the authority to speak first and to end the debate, not wait. Oh, and why was it James who spoke and made the ruling. It appears James was in charge.

And therein lies the danger pf everybody interpreting Scripture for themselves – without understanding the differences and nuances of the Biblical languages as compared to 21st century English.

In Acts 15 - James doesn’t say that HE is deciding for the group. He is simply saying that he is giving his OPINION – his “2 cents”, as it were. There are several words for judging and giving opinions.

The usual Greek word for making a judgment or decree (Rom. 2:3) is κριμα (kree'-mah).

The word used in Acts 15:19 is κρινο (kree'-no), which means to give an opinion or a point of view.
James wasn’t making a decree. He was concurring with Peter.

James didn’t make the decision. He simply agreed with Peter’s conclusion in Acts 15:7-11.

Don't just quote Scripture - LEARN what it means . . .