Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

[Davidpt]

If heaven is timeless, is perhaps an argument, for example, then the conversation between God and the martyrs in Revelation 6:10-11 makes zero sense.

The question--the souls under the altar cry out---How long, O Lord....

Obviously, how long is an explicit measurement of passing time. If they were in a timeless state, they wouldn't experience duration, and they wouldn't ask a time based question.


The answer---God does not reply---time doesn't exist up here--instead, He gives them a time based answer---they should rest yet for a little season... Obviously, a season (chronos in Greek) dictates a specific, bounded segment of passing time. And that they are expreiencing it in heaven by resting during the duration of it. Their resting clearly parallels the duration of the little season back on earth. That equals heaven is in sync with the timeline on earth below. It is profoundly absurd to argue it isn't. Therefore, heaven is obviously waiting for earthly events to finish.


The text ties the timeline of heaven to the chronological timeline of earth---...until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls in heaven are on a literal countdown clock that is entirely dependent on sequential events happening back on earth. They are waiting for the tally of martyrs to fill up. You cannot wait for a future earthly event to finish if you are in a completely atemporal, timeless void.

Revelation 20 Uses sequential time language---Till the thousand years should be fulfilled(verse 3)---And after that he must be loosed a little season(verse 3)---And when the thousand years are expired(verse 7)---And shall go out to deceive(verse 8)

Therefore, if heaven is out of sync with earth, then words like till, after, when, and shall go out completely lose their meaning. God used chronological markers for a reason---obviously, in order to give us a sequence.


If heaven is timeless, why are the souls experiencing the passing of time? Why are they asking how long? Why does God tell them to wait for a little season until specific events on earth are finished?

Therefore, if anyone is using timelessness as a theological rescue device because their timeline math broke---the text clearly shows that heaven is completely aware of and waiting on earth’s timeline. And Amils still haven't answered the question---logically if the millennium is expired and in the past, how can a new arrival enter it when they get to heaven?

 

[rwb]

If heaven is timeless, why are the souls experiencing the passing of time? Why are they asking how long? Why does God tell them to wait for a little season until specific events on earth are finished?

Because they cried out to God in heaven from the bosom of Abraham, which is the place where faithful saints after physical death went; IOW the resting place for the physically dead saints of Old. They want to know how long before they will be with the promised One in heaven and set free from bondage to the grave. God does not give them an exact time but assures them their waiting will not be much longer, because that is how "little season" is defined, certainly NOT One thousand years.

Therefore, if anyone is using timelessness as a theological rescue device because their timeline math broke---the text clearly shows that heaven is completely aware of and waiting on earth’s timeline. And Amils still haven't answered the question logically---if the millennium is expired and in the past, how can a new arrival enter it when they get to heaven?

This entire reply is about as clear as mud. What does whether or not there is timelessness in heaven have to do with time, whether a little season, or a thousand years of time on earth? Why do you not reply to what I've actually said? I make no mention of timelessness in heaven, even though from the abundance of Scripture I understand heaven does not exist in time, how could it since it is the dwelling place of Immortal God?

 

[Davidpt]

The Old Covenant faithful souls slain for the Word of God and their testimony were not crying out to God from heaven. They could not go to heaven after being killed until the promised One came to make atonement for sin and defeat death. These OC faithful souls cried out to God from the bosom of Abraham, which was what the place of the faithful dead was called in days of Old. (Lk 16:22-23)

They died waiting for the promised Messiah to come with the Kingdom of God. To be under the altar was to be covered by the sacrificial atoning blood through promise. When Christ came with the Kingdom of God is when the souls cried out for vengeance. That's when they were given white robes, signifying righteousness of the saints, (Rev 7:9-17) and told "they should yet rest for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Therefore, time (little season) for them began when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. The little season for the faithful saints then would be finished when Christ went to the cross and resurrected from the dead. That would be about 3-3 1/2 years later.

The fellowservants and their brethren I believe were Old Covenant Hebrew faithful who, like Abraham, heard the gospel preached through the prophets of Old, and according to grace through faith they believed God. (see Gal 3:8) I believe they are called the elect remnant of God from the Old Covenant nation of Israel reserved for everlasting life by God (Ro 11:4). And their brethren also, I believe is Christ our Lord. (Mt 12:46-49)

The fellowservants killed as they, are depicted as those who are the many (spiritual) bodies of the saints who came out of the graves after the resurrection of Christ (Mt 27:52-53). Before ascending to heaven after His resurrection, Christ first descended to the lower parts of the earth, (graves of Old called the bosom of Abraham) to set the captives free (Eph 4:8-10). The fellowservants also included those Hebrew saints living under the Old Covenant who believed in Christ through the preaching of John-the-Baptist, who went about telling first century Jews the good news, preaching repentance for the One they were waiting for had come.

The little season for the souls of them that were slain of Old came to an end when Christ came to earth a man. And that is when a/the thousand years for Satan to be bound began. When the thousand years have ended, then Satan will also have a little season of freedom from the pit, (Rev 20:3,7) because that's when preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ will be fulfilled, salvation ended.

We have no way of knowing how much time Satan will be given in the days when the seventh trumpet begins to sound (Rev 10:5-7). But, if we gage his time according to the little season for the souls of Old, we know it will not be ONE thousand more years of time once the last trumpet begins to sound.

Not that I agree, but thanks for clearing that up. My bad then by me assuming you had souls in heaven before Christ died and rose. Clearly, you don't, and I get that now. Once again, sorry for the strawman I was building. I just assumed everyone agrees the scene is heaven where they are crying out from. Therefore, I wasn't trying to build a strawman purposesly, it was an honest misunderstanding on my part. At the time I didn't even realize I was building a strawman.

Now that we are on the same page regarding your specific timeline, let’s look closer at the text of Revelation to see if the 5th seal can actually fit into a 30–33 AD window in Abraham's Bosom.


When we examine the structural and chronological data inside Revelation and the Gospels, this view runs into several major hurdles.


You mentioned that to be under the altar means to be covered by atoning blood down in Abraham's Bosom (the lower parts of the earth). However, the book of Revelation explicitly defines the location of this altar, and it is never placed in the underworld.

Every time the altar is described, it is located in the heavenly temple directly in front of God's throne.

Revelation 8:3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 14:17-18: An angel comes out of the temple which is in heaven, and another angel comes out from the altar.

If the altar is structurally located before the throne inside the heavenly temple, then the souls under it must be in the throne room of heaven, not in the old covenant place of the dead.



You rightly connected the white robes given to the 5th seal martyrs to the imagery in Revelation 7. But look at where Revelation 7 places the people wearing those exact robes.

Revelation 7:9----clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Stood before the throne, and before the Lamb...

Revelation 7:15---Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple...

If the white robes signify the righteousness given to these 5th seal martyrs, and the white robed multitude is standing before the heavenly throne and inside His temple, it binds the 5th seal scene to heaven, not Abraham's Bosom.



Your timeline requires the brethren and fellow servants to be martyred during Jesus's 3 to 3.5-year earthly ministry (30-33 AD). But if we look at the Gospels, there was no massive, sweeping wave of saints being martyred during Christ's earthly ministry to fulfill a prophetic quota.

John the Baptist was killed, but the actual explosion of Christian martyrdom---Stephen, James, the fierce persecutions by Saul, and the eventual Roman persecutions---all took place after the cross, resurrection, and ascension. The NT history simply doesn't support martyrdom trapped entirely between 30 AD and 33 AD.


If the 5th seal represents the souls waiting during Christ's earthly ministry (30-33 AD), then chronologically, the first four seals must take place before 30 AD.

This means the four horsemen of the Apocalypse---which bring total war, global famine, and death to a quarter of the earth (Rev 6:1--8)---had to have already ridden and completed their devastation before Jesus ever started His public ministry. There is absolutely no Biblical or secular historical record of the global apocalypse breaking out during the early reign of Tiberius Caesar.

When the souls in heaven ask How long...? and are told to wait for a little season until their brethren are killed, they are looking forward at a future timeline of events. If the altar is before the throne, the robes are in the temple, and the massive wave of Christian history's martyrs happened after the cross, how can this scene be restricted to the underworld prior to 33 AD?

Do you also think this fits 30-33 AD as well? Probably not, right?---After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hand----These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How can we possibly divorce the little season from that of a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues? Look what Matthew 24 records---for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be---And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

A side note: I am yet to see a timeline by any Amil that makes sense and agrees with the texts involved. Most Amils, if not all Amils, play gymnastics with Zechariah 14 via their timelines, they do it with Daniel 7 as well, and they are doing it with Revelation 20 also, to name a few.

 

[rwb]

You mentioned that to be under the altar means to be covered by atoning blood down in Abraham's Bosom (the lower parts of the earth). However, the book of Revelation explicitly defines the location of this altar, and it is never placed in the underworld.

No problem with confusion David.

Abraham's bosom is the physical grave. In Old Testament times, according to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lu 16, the place of saints who died in faith was separate from the graves of those who died in unbelief. The blood of Christ was not in Abraham's bosom, but the blood of the Lamb; Christ Jesus, through Covenant promise, ordained in heaven from eternity past would cover (under the altar/blood) all faithful saints upon the earth including faithful saints who lived and died long before Christ gave His life to atone for sin. That's why the Bible speaks of Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8; Lk 10:20; Ph 4:3; Rev 17:8) That's why we know the blood of the Lamb according to promise would eternally save every believer regardless of when they lived and died because the promise of Christ as the sacrificial Lamb along with the names of all who would be eternally saved was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

If the altar is structurally located before the throne inside the heavenly temple, then the souls under it must be in the throne room of heaven, not in the old covenant place of the dead.

First, I view all of this from a symbolic point of view. If the souls were already in heaven, why would they be crying out to God for vengeance, asking how long?

You rightly connected the white robes given to the 5th seal martyrs to the imagery in Revelation 7. But look at where Revelation 7 places the people wearing those exact robes.

Revelation 7:9----clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Stood before the throne, and before the Lamb...

Revelation 7:15---Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple...

If the white robes signify the righteousness given to these 5th seal martyrs, and the white robed multitude is standing before the heavenly throne and inside His temple, it binds the 5th seal scene to heaven, not Abraham's Bosom.

I only made a connection with Rev 7 to show white robes signify "righteousness of the saints." (Rev 19:8) But the souls under the altar, who lived and died under the Old Covenant before the cross and resurrection, though they are numbered with the innumerable multitude they are not Old Covenant faithful saints of Rev 6. The reason I know this is because "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

From the Mount of Olives, Christ tells His New Covenant disciples that "great tribulation" would come to faithful saints as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through the name of Jesus "shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come". Old Covenant faithful saints killed for their faith did not preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through the name of Jesus, because none of them knew that name. They knew Him only as the Promised One/Messiah to come, but the name Jesus was not known until that name was given to Him at birth.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Your timeline requires the brethren and fellow servants to be martyred during Jesus's 3 to 3.5-year earthly ministry (30-33 AD). But if we look at the Gospels, there was no massive, sweeping wave of saints being martyred during Christ's earthly ministry to fulfill a prophetic quota.

Their fellowservants and brethren (Jews) who must be killed as they were only included the remnant of faithful Jews who learned of Christ through preaching of the Kingdom of God through the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Those who came out of the Old Covenant and turned in repentance and faith to Christ. There has always been only an elect remnant from Old according to election through faith. (Ro 9:27)

This means the four horsemen of the Apocalypse---which bring total war, global famine, and death to a quarter of the earth (Rev 6:1--8)---had to have already ridden and completed their devastation before Jesus ever started His public ministry. There is absolutely no Biblical or secular historical record of the global apocalypse breaking out during the early reign of Tiberius Caesar.

The seals were opened by the Lamb who, in chapter 5 had been slain. The rider of the white horse symbolizing Christ as going forth conquering and to conquer, as long as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed is building the Kingdom in heaven, Christ is still going forth conquering and to conquer.

The rider seated on the red horse symbolizing the great red dragon (Rev 12:3) who is the one who takes peace from the earth, is still taking peace from the earth.

The rider on the black horse symbolizing scarcity and unequal provisions especially of food. Food is more carefully measured when it is scarce, is still at work upon the earth.

The rider on the pale horse symbolizing death and hell, given power over the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, hunger, death, and beasts of the earth, is still at work upon the earth.

I believe the riders on the four horses have always been operating in the world from the beginning of creation. History tells us everything these riders symbolize has been operating in the world from the fall of Adam & Eve. But with the coming of the rider on the white horse, who is Christ, their presence among mankind was greatly increased. Because Satan and his demonic hosts were cast out of heaven and to the earth with great power symbolized by the red, black and pale horses and riders. While heaven rejoiced, (Rev 12:12) the Devil was filled with wrath because he was not able to prevent the birth of the Man-child; Christ Jesus our Lord. Through Christ salvation for all the nations of the world had come. (Rev 12:10) And "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

All the forces of evil would be used by Satan as he operates in the minds and hearts of mankind trying to prevent the Kingdom of God in heaven from being built. This is why Christ tells His faithful disciples there would be great tribulation such as never before and shall never be again.

How can we possibly divorce the little season from that of a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues?

They aren't divorced; they are simply divided between Old Covenant and New Covenant saints. The remnant from all the tribes of the children of Israel, represented as 144,000, (Rev 7:3-8) from the first advent of Christ are with the innumerable multitude coming out of great tribulation, but those of Old and those of the New did not all live at the same time in redemptive history.

How can we possibly divorce the little season from that of a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues?

The Old Covenant faithful saints lived and died before the advent of Christ. And they could not go directly to heaven in spiritual body and living soul until after the cross and resurrection. As I've already said when Christ finally did come with the Kingdom of God, they were told they must rest a little season to wait for Christ to atone for sin and defeat death. But New Covenant faithful saints are given another amount of time, symbolized a/the thousand years in which they must be born again. Since Christ defeated death, the New Covenant saints go directly to heaven in spiritual body as living souls the moment they physically die. (1Cor 15:44) Which is why Paul longed to be out of his natural body of mortal flesh in death so he could be spiritually alive with our Lord in heaven. (2Cor 5:8)

To be bluntly honest with you David, many Amillennial Christians, including myself, believe it is millennialists like yourself who not only play gymnastics with the Word of God, but also force contradiction and confusion that makes it very difficult at times to follow your logic and reasoning.