Salvation is one thing and what we do after is another... the faith which saved us is one thing (eph2:8) but after that faith without works becomes a dead faith..... good answer mailmandan!!
LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU! WAKE UP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!
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What about gal 5:4 are you gonna do the chubby checker “twist and shout” here as well?Yes, and the scripture confirms this regarding 'the faith'
They depart from the external religion, church, the faith, never having been converted by the Spirit on the inside into the New Man
Ephesians 4
The New Man
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Bible Gateway passage: Jude - New King James Version
Greeting to the Called - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. Contend for the Faith - Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you...classic.biblegateway.com
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [b]God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.
Hebrews 10
32 But recall the former days in which, after you were [h]illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on [i]me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your [j]goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves [k]in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He[l] who is coming will come and will not [m]tarry.
38 Now the[n] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to [o]perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Tell how they did not really have grace!
Thks
Did they bring forth fruit by faith alone?There is no eternal security for them that believe not, God saves believers in Him, not unbelievers.
They real test is are you born of God, cause all those born again of incorruptible seed will continue to believe as God is their true Father.
The others will fall away, Jesus demonstrates this in the parable of the Sower.
Out of all the types of people only one was saved, the seed that fell on the good ground.
The good ground is a changed heart, and God is the one who opens and changes the heart, He takes out the heart of stone which is hardened against the truth, and puts in it the new heart which is teachable by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus even explains the meaning of the parable
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13 - New King James Version
The Parable of the Sower - On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower...The Parable of the Sower
1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
The Purpose of Parables
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
All those who deo not bear fruit to God are cut down and cast into the fire!
God in heaven is the one who gives understanding to men. There is no other way to salvation unless God through Christ reveals to you the understanding, He does this by you being enable to be taught by Him teaching you
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 5:19-21 - New King James Version
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life...
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many of your really understand this!
Luke 24:45
And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
Thks
Where does Eph 2 include the supernatural virtue of hope?
It is referring to the general redemption not personal salvation
Thks
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2 does not necessarily need to spell out "hope" in order to figure out that if we have faith then we have hope because we see elsewhere in scripture that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
RandyDawson
Active Member
A half truth is still not the truth.
A little leaven spoils the entire loaf
Let's not forget that satan included some truth in his deception in the garden.
It's what he does is mixes some truth in with his lies to get people to accept his lies.
The blind leading the blind and they both fall in to the ditch - Matthew 15:14
RandyDawson
Active Member
They are trained by the false teachers to protect their fake gospel at all costs so they are required to tell every one these people were never born again which is what being in the faith means. This is a key part of their subterfuge.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The the Lord says this thru the Apostle John:
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
It's no wonder Luther didn't accept what the Lord taught by the Holy Spirit through James and John!
Yes good works the Holy Spirit does through us as we submit ourselves to thew leading of the Holy Spirit.
There are some trying to live under the law of Moses doing good works apart from the Holy Spirit.
Those works are useless.
Each of these describe the reborn, if in fact the person is reborn.
Paul warned that, well, read it for yourself:
1 Timothy 1:18-20 (KJV)
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
What are you thinking would be modified because someone believes that being reborn is permanent? I've lived through a shipwrecked faith, and have been restored.
We can receive this verse exactly as written, without any need to change the ideas from speaking of "faith" - in the passage, or "sin" in your post.
OSAS is faith that the Bible is true. And for those who believe this there seems to be this unending line of people to "belch" in our faces how we just want to sin sin sin sin sin all for freeeeeeeee!
Either it's true or it's not, you should pick one, I think!
And not denigrate others who you do not even know. That's not righteousness, now, is it?
But you say Eph 2 refers to personal salvation and scripture says we are saved by hope?Ephesians 2 does not necessarily need to spell out "hope" in order to figure out that if we have faith then we have hope because we see elsewhere in scripture that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Eph 2 does not say hope so it’s not about personal salvation
Thks
Agree there are many kinds of works
(((Unfruitful)))
(works of the law)
Refer to the works of the mosaic covenant
(works of the flesh)
Listed in Gal 5:19-21 & Eph 5:3-5
these cause the loss of grace and the bar us from salvation in the kingdom of God. the unfruitful works of darkness
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. eph 5:6
(dead works) or (works alone) or (natural works)
Works that are good in and of themselves but are not in union with Christ and grace and have power to accomplish perseverance unto eternal salvation! unfruitful works
Apart from Christ: NOTHING! Jn 15:5
(((Fruitful))
Living works or deeds of rightousness!
(living works) (faith & works)
Supernatural good works (gifts of God) accomplished in union with Christ and empowered by His grace with perseverance to the end of our life unto eternal salvation!
fruitful works! Lk 3:9 Jn 15:5 bear fruit
2 cor 9: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
With Christ & empowered by grace:
I CAN DO ALL THINGS! Phil 4:13
1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Living works:
1 pet 2:15-16 good works
1 pet 2:20 acceptable to God
1 pet 2:21-22 suffer as Christ suffered
righteousness implies & requires acts (volition) of righteousness
just deeds unto faithfulness in the new covenant!
mt 3:15
mt 10:22
mt 25
mt 6:33
mt 7:7
mt 26:41
mt 7:14
Lk 1:75
acts 10:35
rom 3:21
rom 5:21
rom 6:18
1 tim 6:11
1 tim 2:22
2 tim 3:16
heb 11:33
2 pet 2:21
1 Jn 2:29
1 Jn 3:7
1 pet 2:24
mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Practices)
Luke 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
(acts / deeds)
Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: (works of the flesh) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (living works of righteousness)
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, (works of the flesh) or of obedience unto righteousness? (living works of righteousness)
Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; (works of the flesh) even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (living works of righteousness)
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (living works of righteousness)
1 tim 6: 11-14
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Living works of righteousness)
Thks
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2 clearly says saved through faith, which is personal salvation. Its impossible to have faith without hope or hope without faith. You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.
So now you are rejecting the doctrine of “faith alone”?
Eph 2 refers to the general redemption by Christ as it says in vs 1 & 5 quickend or brought us to life, the life of grace Jn 1:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 etc.
Thks
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Actually, I'm not because we are saved the very moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and having done so, we have hope. This is not rocket science.
We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification).
You cannot deny the fact that faith and hope are two distinct and different virtues scripture says so 1 cor 13:13 three are eternal faith, hope, and charity and scripture says we are saved by both faith and hope so the doctrine of “faith alone” CANNOT be biblical! It is false doctrine!
Thks
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Faith is generally anchored in the past and present, representing a firm trust, confidence, reliance in the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Hope is future oriented, representing an earnest anticipation or confident expectation of unseen things yet to come, including the redemption of our bodies at the resurrection. So distinct, yet closely related and inseparable. Once we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and are saved, we now have our future hope.
If you really believe this, then you believe Christ lies.
Cause He tells them I NEVER knew you, but your saying they were saved, and Christ does know those who are His.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
1 Corinthians 3:6-8 New King James Version
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.It is like this herein
Psalm 127
1 Unless the Lord builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the Lord guards the city,
The watchman stays awake in vain.
2 It is vain for you to rise up early,
To sit up late,
To eat the bread of sorrows;
For so He gives His beloved sleep.
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Good works and good fruit are not the same things
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Good works benefit men, not God
But our good fruit we bear to God and that is our salvation, because if you do not bear good fruit to God's works who is working in us, you will be cast into the fire and destroyed. And this
Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Philippians 2:13
For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
I was asking about the gospel, parable of the sower, did he bear fruit by faith alone?
Thks
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