Poll. Will we be judged when we die?

[PinSeeker]

Yep, there's some I'd image that just got wet and nothing more.

Even back when I was a young believer we were always taught that you get born again first and then because you just got born again you go get baptized.

Some that are teaching the act of being baptized is being born again then they run the very real risk that all they are doing is dun king people in the water and not actually getting them born again.

Water baptism is the New Testament period equivalent of the act of circumcision, which was to be performed on male children at eight days old, as the sign and seal of the promise. It is a bit veiled, so to speak, but if you look at Colossians 2:11-12, you should be able to see this truth:

"In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised Him from the dead."

This sign was an outward visualization of the act of conferring salvation which can only be given by God. Circumcision was an act done in faith that God would work in the child at the time of His choosing and thereby confer salvation upon the child at some time in the future, during his life. It is the same now, except that the sign is now, as I said, water baptism, but it is done in faith that God will work in that child's heart at some time in the future and call him or her to be His.

In the Book of Acts people only got baptized after they believed (born again).

In acts 2:38, Peter was talking to all men who were present, probably thousands of men, telling them to repent and be baptized, "you and your children and all who are far off..." ~ so their entire households. Ostensibly, some of these men had infant children... <smile> Parents should have their children baptized as early as possible in their lives, because the promise is for them, too. <smile> They should not be excluded just because they cannot yet make a credible profession of faith. The prayer is that they would never know a day when they do not know Christ Jesus as their Savior. But still, it is about the parents' faith that God's promises are true, namely they God will draw that child to Himself at some point ~ cause him or her to be born again by His Spirit ~ Ephesians 2:4-10; 1 Peter 1:3-5) ~ and thus , as Paul says in Romans 2:29 ~ "circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit."

Water baptism is a public acknowledgement of entering in to covenant with the Lord...

It's a sacrament, Randy, and as such a sign of the saving work of the Lord. And again, should be given as early in one's life as possible, regardless of whether that person has expressed belief or not. Public profession of belief, and even belief itself, is not, or are not, prerequisites to water baptism.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[RandyDawson]

In acts 2:38, Peter was talking to all men who were present, probably thousands of men, telling them to repent and be baptized, "you and your children and all who are far off..." ~ so their entire households.

Reckon when Jesus said unless a man is born again they cannot enter God's Kingdom He was not telling us correctly?
Must not have been according to some.

If a man gets born again, nobody else in His family has to get born again and they are saved too?
If so, then what Jesus said is wrong and incorrect.

I think I'll continue rolling with what Jesus said.

should be given as early in one's life as possible

No, people only get baptized after they have been born again. As shown in scripture.

Infant baptizing does not toward salvation. All that is doing is getting the kid wet. Nothing more.

 

[PinSeeker]

Reckon when Jesus said unless a man is born again they cannot enter God's Kingdom He was not telling us correctly?

No, I don't reckon that,, Randy. <chuckles>

Must not have been according to some.

Sure, people believe what they want to believe...

If a man gets born again, nobody else in His family has to get born again and they are saved too?

Uh...what? What kind of question is that, Randy? Wow.

If so, then what Jesus said is wrong and incorrect.

Yeah, so not so, and what Jesus (Who is God, of course) said is... not wrong, and not incorrect.

I think I'll continue rolling with what Jesus said.

Um... good, me, too, but I'm not sure you really know what Jesus said...

No, people only get baptized after they have been born again. As shown in scripture.

Disagree. Scripture does not show that people have to be believers before they are baptized. Now, for many folks this is how it works out, because their parents did not have them baptized as infants, but they do it on their own at some point in their lives, and probably because they believe. But believe is not a prerequisite for getting baptized. You will notice that when Peter says, in Acts 2:38, men to have their whole household baptized, he does not say "but only if they believe" or "only if they're old enough and have given a credible profession of belief."

Infant baptizing does not toward salvation.

Right, I said no such thing. And by that same token, neither does baptism of any person at any age, whether they have expressed belief or not.

All that is doing is getting the kid wet. Nothing more.

<chuckles> Just physically speaking, that's true of any person; water baptism does not confer salvation on the person, regardless of age or ability or expression of belief.

But, like I said, it is an outward sign of the promise of God ~ just as circumcision was in the Old Testament ~ so a sacrament, and as such a visible reminder that of the only thing that is salvific, the working of God, that He promises to do it, in the person in the person of His Holy Spirit... baptism with the Spirit, which is administered, or given, by Jesus. John says: "...He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is He Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God." (John 1:33-34). And as such, everyone is eligible, even infants. The earlier the better, even at eight days old, like circumcision, according to the commandment of God to Abraham (Genesis 17:12, 21:4) in the Old Testament.

You're... an interesting feller, Randy. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[RandyDawson]

Uh...what? What kind of question is that, Randy? Wow.

You said this:
In acts 2:38, Peter was talking to all men who were present, probably thousands of men, telling them to repent and be baptized, "you and your children and all who are far off..." ~ so their entire households.

Some people claim this means when a man gets saved, all the others in his house hold have no need to get born again and they are all saved because he got saved.

Disagree. Scripture does not show that people have to be believers before they are baptized.

Well then don't read the Book of Acts.
People can go jump in the lake all they want and that does not make them born again.

baptized as infants

Jesus and His Apostles never taught anybody to baptize babies nor do we see babies being baptized in scripture.
This false teaching came from the reformers who had a lot of other false teachings to go with it.

Peter says, in Acts 2:38, men to have their whole household baptized, he does not say "but only if they believe" or "only if they're old enough and have given a credible profession of belief."

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After hearing Peter preach they asked what should they do. He told them. They obviously already believed and now he's telling them to repent from their sin and get dunked. These people got born again when they believed.

Dude, you gotta let the Holy Spirit teach you what the scripture is saying!

 

[Earburner]

Um, I don't disagree with what you say here, really, but... who's "Religion"...? Are you referring to another poster here, or... Or maybe you're differentiating between "religion" and true Christianity, but... Yeah, meh. <smile>

The latter.

Do you think the thief crucified on Jesus's right was referring to Malachi 3? If so, that I would strongly disagree with. In what He says... or rather his simple request, we see his belief in Christ, which is a product of the faith he's been given.

The "repentant thief" was born "under the altar" of the OC., and evidently he understood what was meant by being one whose names would be "remembered" in the "book of Remembrance that was written before God.

According to the NT scriptures, NO ONE [including Abraham, Moses etc.] WAS ever given the PERMANENT indwelling of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, UNTIL AFTER the shedding of Jesus' innocent blood.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is absolutely untrue, even just by definition. This we know: "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Who do you think that assurance and conviction comes from, Earburner? Ourselves? If so, that's no assurance at all, but only something along the lines of wishful thinking.

No, this faith comes from outside of us... is given to us by God, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2: ~ "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..."

What you're doing here, Earburner ~ albeit unintentionally, I guess ~ is:

1. making faith out to be a work of man
2. making man out to be at least partially responsible for his own salvation... and thus himself praiseworthy
3. making God's grace, His unmerited favor, out to be something other than grace
4. adding ~ ironically, because of what you yourself railed against in your own post 175 above ~ "steps" and "conditions" to be accomplished and/or met in order to be saved

Salvation is of the Lord. As Jesus told Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:3-8) And as John said in John 1:13, we are "born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."


We believe, Earburner, because we have been born again and are at that point of God. If you say belief is a work of man, I absolutely agree, but it is (they are, regarding works) a product of, even the outward evidence of, our having been born again ~ by God ~ and the faith we've been given ~ again, by God Himself. James puts it well: "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead... I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:17:18).

Calm down. I never said anything diifferent!
Yes!!!! By faith we have received the "work of God".
As you quoted: "For by [God the Father's] grace you have been saved through faith [in the work ofJesus]. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of [our] works..."

Grace and peace to you.

Same to you!

 

[PinSeeker]

You said this:
In acts 2:38, Peter was talking to all men who were present, probably thousands of men, telling them to repent and be baptized, "you and your children and all who are far off..." ~ so their entire households.

Some people claim this means when a man gets saved, all the others in his house hold have no need to get born again and they are all saved because he got saved.

Okay well if so, those are not smart people. <smile>

People can go jump in the lake all they want and that does not make them born again.

I agree. <chuckles>

Jesus and His Apostles never taught anybody to baptize babies...

And they never taught otherwise.

nor do we see babies being baptized in scripture.

But we do read of adult men who are, oh, highly encouraged to have their entire households baptized... "you and your children and all who are far off..." That's Peter, you know, and he.. was... an apostle... <smile> And as I say, baptism has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant... that particular sacrament, and circumcision was required ~ by God ~ to be given to male children eight days old.

This false teaching came from the reformers who had a lot of other false teachings to go with it.

Some people think so, but I'm not quoting the reformers, here, Randy. <smile>

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After hearing Peter preach they asked what should they do. He told them. They obviously already believed and now he's telling them to repent from their sin and get dunked.

Ah, the mode of baptism... Dunking? Sprinkling? You know, the part of the Jordan where Jesus was baptized was about ankle deep; He was not... "dunked"... The mode of baptism is not important. Aside from that, though, yes Peter told them to repent and be baptized, and regarding baptism, not just them but... yeah, their entire households, including their children. Not their children who believed, Randy, but their children. And again, considering the number of men hearing Peter's sermon, there surely were men there with infant children.

These people got born again when they believed.

You quoted it yourself... they were pricked in their heart, which is the Holy Spirit doing His thing. This is how we are saved, just as God says through Ezekiel (11:19-20; 36:25-27):

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."​

So those guys in Acts that Peter was talking to... they were converted to Christ in that very moment. Faith comes by hearing, you know, as Paul says in Romans 10:17. So born again of the Holy Spirit, and as a result, they were given faith ~ God's assurance of salvation and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts (Hebrews 11:1) ~ and thus believed.

Oh, and hey, about what God says in Ezekiel, you noticed He said something about sprinkling clean water on us, yeah? <smile> I mean you know if you or anyone just insists on "dunking" or it's just not effective, that's... okay, I guess... <smile>

Dude, you gotta let the Holy Spirit teach you what the scripture is saying!

Ah, well obviously, right back atcha. Dude. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The latter.

Okay. Yeah meh. <smile>

The "repentant thief" was born "under the altar" of the OC., and evidently he understood what was meant by being one whose names would be "remembered" in the "book of Remembrance that was written before God.

I think there's absolutely no way to know that. And I would doubt it highly. I would say, though, that the Spirit led him in such a way that what he said on his cross harkened back to what you're talking about in Malachi.

According to the NT scriptures, NO ONE [including Abraham, Moses etc.] WAS ever given the PERMANENT indwelling of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, UNTIL AFTER the shedding of Jesus' innocent blood.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Right, but that does not mean the Holy Spirit was not at work in those days. I mean the Holy Spirit was very present and at work in Genesis 1 even before creation, right? Yeah, "hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2)... But read Hebrews 11, Earburner. You will see... or should, anyway, that, beginning with Abel (Adam's son), and including Abraham, and on and on and on... we are all saved the same way, through faith. which according to Hebrews 11:1 is God's assurance of salvation and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts. Surely you would say with me that what Jesus told Nicodemus, that one must be "born again to see the Kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" was not just applicable to New Testament believers... Right?

Calm down.

LOL! You know, everybody gets worked up occasionally, but-tuhhh... Yeah no, not me here... <chuckles>

I never said anything diifferent!
Yes!!!! By faith we have received the "work of God".
As you quoted: "For by [God the Father's] grace you have been saved through faith [in the work ofJesus]. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of [our] works..."

Good. Or, as John says, we are "born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God," and Paul says of our being one of God's elect, "(God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy." Yeah, cool, bro.

Well, one correction ~ which you may be of the same understanding ~ but rather than "by faith," I would say "through faith," which you quote there in Ephesians 2. There's a difference between 'by' and 'through,' as they are used there. Again, you may agree, and not be insinuating otherwise, and that's fine, but I think if we say 'by faith,' there, the very possible inference is that we manufacture our own faith, which cannot be. Faith, by definition (as given to us by the writer of Hebrews) is, again, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," and this can only come from God. Only He can assure us and convict us of these things. It cannot be a self-assurance of things unseen, and it cannot be a self-conviction, because that's no assurance or conviction at all, but merely something like wishful thinking. Saving faith is an absolute surety. Yet again, you may know all that, I'm... you know, just sayin.' <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dryhn]

The latter.

The "repentant thief" was born "under the altar" of the OC., and evidently he understood what was meant by being one whose names would be "remembered" in the "book of Remembrance that was written before God.

According to the NT scriptures, NO ONE [including Abraham, Moses etc.] WAS ever given the PERMANENT indwelling of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, UNTIL AFTER the shedding of Jesus' innocent blood.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Calm down. I never said anything diifferent!
Yes!!!! By faith we have received the "work of God".
As you quoted: "For by [God the Father's] grace you have been saved through faith [in the work ofJesus]. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of [our] works..."

Same to you!

""According to the NT scriptures, NO ONE [including Abraham, Moses etc.] WAS ever given the PERMANENT indwelling of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, UNTIL AFTER the shedding of Jesus' innocent blood.""

Good observation Eb which is confirmed by the teachings of Christ via Paul and nowhere does Paul teach that the HS seal can be broken/taken away

A person is SEALED with the HS once they trust, hear & believe the gospel of salvation
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,