Face to face vs Darkness

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VictoryinJesus

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1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

What is this "but then"? To get a clear picture one must start at the beginning: the envy and Jealousy of man. Just like "pleasure" by definition of God is nothing similar to the "pleasure" of corruptible man (pleasure used by God in reference to heaven/the pleasure of man used to reference feeding of ones appetite), likewise...Jealousy: God's Jealousy which is pure and Holy, is far different from man's jealousy which again feeds man's own lustful appetite.

Genesis 4:4-9
[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: [5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. [6] And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? [7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. [8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. [9] And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Cain's countenance fell. "fallen" a darkness entered in. Cain was put outside of God's countenance (light) to stumble within the darkness of something apart from the presence of God. When God hides His face from man, we are troubled. without God's countenance shining light on the truth, we stumble as in the night. (Psalm 104:29)

We are instructed to seek His face. To seek His Kingdom. To seek His light. To seek that straight and narrow path which is truth. Proverbs 7:15
[15] Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

So that God's face will shine upon us. Face to Face. As Moses sought God and Moses countenance was changed so that it shined from the light (presences) of God. It is this light we should seek. God's countenance and favor to shine upon us.

Numbers 6:25-27
[25] The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: [26] The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. [27] And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Exodus 33:11
[11] And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

1 Samuel 16:11-13
[11] And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither. [12] And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the Lord said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. [13] Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Genesis 32:29-30
[29] And Jacob asked him , and said, Tell me , I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. [30] And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Have you seen God face to face, and your life is preserved? Have you seen God "face to face"? Does His countenance shine on you to light a path to walk therein? Is there peace and trust?

Psalm 31:16
[16] Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake.


Isaiah 64:7-8
[7] And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. [8] But now, O Lord , thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jeremiah 7:19
[19] Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord : do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

It is a heart condition. A heart either in the dark, or in the light of truth. That is where God wants us, walking in the light of His countenance where He promises we will not stumble as in the night but walk as in the day. Are you in the dark to where there is confusion of your own face?

Proverbs 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

Daniel 9:8-9
[8] O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. [9] To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;


As with Cain: Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God : God is not in all his thoughts.


Psalm 44:3
[3] For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

There are too many verses to post here, especially in the New Testament where we are instructed to walk in the light but please consider them. We do not walk in the dark. We are not children of the night. We are the children of "face to face" Genesis 32:29-30
[29] And Jacob asked him , and said, Tell me , I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. [30] And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Psalm 89:15
[15] Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord , in the light of thy countenance.

Daniel 9:17
[17] Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.


Luke 1:76-80
[76] And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; [77] To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, [78] Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, [79] To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. [80] And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

2 Corinthians 3:18
[18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

beholding the light, the countenance, the glory of the Lord...are changed by His light, His countenance, His glory.

Proverbs 16:11-15
[11] A just weight and balance are the Lord's : all the weights of the bag are his work. [12] It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness. [13] Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right. [14] The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it. [15] In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.

A sobering truth we must be willing to embrace:

1 John 3:15
[15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Christ does not abide in the dark. Away from the God's countenance, but the Lamb IS that Light. (Revelation 21:23).

1 John 4:20-21
[20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? [21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 2:8-11
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. [9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. [10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. [11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


Genesis 4:8-9
[8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. [9] And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
 
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aspen

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1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Monastic spirituality works towards reconcilliation of the false self with the true self, rather than creating a dichotomy - purging the the false self. Dedicated Monks and Sisters undertake a life journey to overthrow the illegitimate leadership of the will/ego/false self/old man and follow the co-leadership of God/true self; the focus is on acknowledging the chaos of false self leadership and bring the ‘wayward child’ back into the fold. We do not have to cut corners anymore; no more wandering and self shepherding.

For me, it doesn’t make sense to denying my incomplete nature; indeed, I not longer follow it as leader, but it is still part of who I am and still being nutured under proper management of the Great Shepherd
 
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VictoryinJesus

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VictoryinJesus

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Monastic spirituality works towards reconcilliation of the false self with the true self, rather than creating a dichotomy - purging the the false self. Dedicated Monks and Sisters undertake a life journey to overthrow the illegitimate leadership of the will/ego/false self/old man and follow the co-leadership of God/true self; the focus is on acknowledging the chaos of false self leadership and bring the ‘wayward child’ back into the fold. We do not have to cut corners anymore; no more wandering and self shepherding.

For me, it doesn’t make sense to denying my incomplete nature; indeed, I not longer follow it as leader, but it is still part of who I am and still being nutured under proper management of the Great Shepherd

Aspen, I agree in not denying an incomplete nature. Paul spoke often of his weaknesses. But, for me, God's countenance, favor, light, truth...is not limited to our weakness. My husband(correction not plural o_O) says this all the time: God doesn't choose the qualified. God qualifies the chosen.

What does it mean for God's countenance, favor, light, truth to shine on a person? Stephen would a good example:

Acts 7:48-55
[48] Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? [50] Hath not my hand made all these things? [51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did , so do ye. [52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: [53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. [54] When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. [55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

As the Head, so also will be the body. Keep hearing it. For me, that is what is means to be "chosen"; to have God's countenance/light/favor illuminate His for His purposes. For what purpose? To draw others to that path of light.
 
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Windmill Charge

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"Red herrings

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.

In this context it is not to respond to question that only apply once the person you are talking to has agreed that the logic means there is a God and that it is unreasonable to be an atheist.
 

bbyrd009

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And thr greatest way we can show love to our neighbour is to tell them of Jesus.
16If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

i would suggest showing love without talking fwiw. At the very least if you are going to attempt to "show love" by "telling ppl about Jesus," be sure to include "count the cost"
 

DPMartin

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1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

What is this "but then"? To get a clear picture one must start at the beginning: the envy and Jealousy of man. Just like "pleasure" by definition of God is nothing similar to the "pleasure" of corruptible man (pleasure used by God in reference to heaven/the pleasure of man used to reference feeding of ones appetite), likewise...Jealousy: God's Jealousy which is pure and Holy, is far different from man's jealousy which again feeds man's own lustful appetite.



Cain's countenance fell. "fallen" a darkness entered in. Cain was put outside of God's countenance (light) to stumble within the darkness of something apart from the presence of God. When God hides His face from man, we are troubled. without God's countenance shining light on the truth, we stumble as in the night. (Psalm 104:29)

We are instructed to seek His face. To seek His Kingdom. To seek His light. To seek that straight and narrow path which is truth. Proverbs 7:15
[15] Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

So that God's face will shine upon us. Face to Face. As Moses sought God and Moses countenance was changed so that it shined from the light (presences) of God. It is this light we should seek. God's countenance and favor to shine upon us.




There are too many verses to post here, especially in the New Testament where we are instructed to walk in the light but please consider them. We do not walk in the dark. We are not children of the night. We are the children of "face to face" Genesis 32:29-30
[29] And Jacob asked him , and said, Tell me , I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. [30] And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


beholding the light, the countenance, the glory of the Lord...are changed by His light, His countenance, His glory.


yes but upon us or from us? though its the Lord's Light. that shining came from God through the face of Moses just as the law came from the Lord God by the hand of Moses.

but if as you say this is the way it should be for us I would agree, even if its a "some day". think about it, the exposure to the Almighty as Moses had shows this is what we are to be when as you pointed out, experience face to face with God. even John affirms that when we look upon Him we shall be like Him. so one might think about in this context when as Moses did, walking with this Light of the Lord, you would see no darkness. if light shines from your face then you see no darkness, and thy feet never stumble.


thing is with Cain's countenance, was it toward God or toward his brother? or even both. with the rejection of his offering one could feel as though one is amongst enemies. even though the Lord pointed out to Cain that his brother would be at his service. is this what Cain valued of Abel? one must remember there was Adam Cain and Abel in the earth and the Almighty in communication with them. in this pecking order the subordinate Abel, is in tight with the Most High the Lord God. and Cain, Abel's superior in this pecking order is basically bypassed, and made irrelevant in Cain's possible view of what he should have and be, or Cain's expectations.


Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
 

VictoryinJesus

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yes but upon us or from us? though its the Lord's Light. that shining came from God through the face of Moses just as the law came from the Lord God by the hand of Moses.

Agree "from" would be a better way to say it.

but if as you say this is the way it should be for us I would agree, even if its a "some day". think about it, the exposure to the Almighty as Moses had shows this is what we are to be when as you pointed out, experience face to face with God. even John affirms that when we look upon Him we shall be like Him. so one might think about in this context when as Moses did, walking with this Light of the Lord, you would see no darkness. if light shines from your face then you see no darkness, and thy feet never stumble.

Someone else on another thread said we "reflect" His light. Seems like what you are saying here. Again, more accurate than "upon".

thing is with Cain's countenance, was it toward God or toward his brother? or even both. with the rejection of his offering one could feel as though one is amongst enemies. even though the Lord pointed out to Cain that his brother would be at his service. is this what Cain valued of Abel? one must remember there was Adam Cain and Abel in the earth and the Almighty in communication with them. in this pecking order the subordinate Abel, is in tight with the Most High the Lord God. and Cain, Abel's superior in this pecking order is basically bypassed, and made irrelevant in Cain's possible view of what he should have and be, or Cain's expectations.


Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I am going to say something odd but it won't be the first time. "And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Do you hear any connection to servitude? To rule vs to serve?

Luke 22:15
[15] And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: (His desire toward us and He serves)

Luke 22:25-32
[25] And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. [29] And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [30] That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
 
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DPMartin

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Agree "from" would be a better way to say it.



Someone else on another thread said we "reflect" His light. Seems like what you are saying here. Again, more accurate than "upon".



I am going to say something odd but it won't be the first time. "And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Do you hear any connection to servitude? To rule vs to serve?

Luke 22:15
[15] And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: (His desire toward us and He serves)

Luke 22:25-32
[25] And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. [29] And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [30] That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


in Luke 22:15 that could be simply that the reason for Jesus coming into the world is finally arrived. this moment has been waited for since the Lord said:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. in the beginning was the Word remember. so the desire for the fulfillment of God His Father's will expressed in Him the Word of God isn't to be excluded.

besides its human nature that can chose what nature of the flesh it can and will adopted and execute. and dog pack like pecking order seems to be Cain's expectation, seeing the Lord God addressed the same to Cain. don't put human nature and God's nature (which is what Jesus executed in the flesh) in the same basket. the two do not mix.
 

VictoryinJesus

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in Luke 22:15 that could be simply that the reason for Jesus coming into the world is finally arrived. this moment has been waited for since the Lord said:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. in the beginning was the Word remember. so the desire for the fulfillment of God His Father's will expressed in Him the Word of God isn't to be excluded.

besides its human nature that can chose what nature of the flesh it can and will adopted and execute. and dog pack like pecking order seems to be Cain's expectation, seeing the Lord God addressed the same to Cain. don't put human nature and God's nature (which is what Jesus executed in the flesh) in the same basket. the two do not mix.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, human nature and God's nature. I didn't mean to imply they are the same. In that Christ(God) said, I am among you as he that serveth.

Unlike Cain.
 

DPMartin

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Thank you for your reply. Yes, human nature and God's nature. I didn't mean to imply they are the same. In that Christ(God) said, I am among you as he that serveth.

Unlike Cain.
it was more of a warning on human nature and God's nature, its easy to get caught up in the expectation that human nature is supposed to be more tan it is. I do it all the time, and it is a stumbling block for sure.