Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

D

Dave L

Guest
You can inject the trinity anywhere you like, but it proves nothing.
You cannot look at Jesus' baptism and honestly say the three persons of the Godhead were not present. If so, it makes highly questionable any other view of scripture you might have.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
That's what makes the Trinity doctrine completely incoherent. I've learned over the years that the most logical and simple interpretation is usually the correct one. There's nothing logical or simple about the Trinity.

You haven't answered any of my questions. Is there a reason for that? Is it that, "you can't?"
One God in three persons is not difficult to understand unless you think of God materialistically. Which he is not. God is Spirit.
 

Malsi Si Live

Active Member
Dec 29, 2018
62
25
28
hacinsack
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Philippians 2:5-9 KJV
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Tecarta Bible PremiumHe’s the advocate. Is he not telling me to follow his model. Or shall I come at you with a rod?
Most Trinitarians can't agree on the interpretation of 2:5 Phil. That verse simply states that Jesus was equal in appearance and glory. FORM is the word morphē and it implies the external appearance, NOT internal attributes.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
 

Harvest 1874

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2018
1,100
573
113
62
Tampa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. And all three persons were present during Jesus' baptism. You cannot have a Son without a Father, or a Father without a Son.


You can inject the trinity anywhere you like, but it proves nothing.
I was going to say the same thing.
 
Last edited:

Malsi Si Live

Active Member
Dec 29, 2018
62
25
28
hacinsack
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
One God in three persons is not difficult to understand unless you think of God materialistically. Which he is not. God is Spirit.
It's incomprehensible and most Trinitarians will tell you it cannot be understood!

You haven't answered any of my questions.

IF the holy spirit was ONE person equal to God and Jesus, he would have a name, and he would be found in or around the Throne of God. IF the Trinity was true, it would be clearly expressed in the bible. It's not. There is no Trinitarian formula in the bible. Here is the Throne of God, Jesus is there, the Father God is there, where is the holy spirit? Can you tell me?

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

________________________________________________________________________

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
 

Blueberry

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2018
340
277
63
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If the Father, Jesus, and the holy spirit were co-equal, Jesus would not have said the Father is greater



Is it not possibly to be co-equal in deity and yet Jesus be subordinate to the Father in hierarchy? As an essential part of His role and mission? Particularly while incarnate.

Here Christ's claim of equality seem straightforward...
"I and [my] Father are one." John 10:30



blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other...

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



Not necessarily. God can choose to reserve a more harsh punishment for offending His more sensitive Self. This seems like a harsh policy for insulting a mere impersonal 'energy' or force.



Three persons? The holy spirit is not ONE person but many persons. The holy spirit emanates from the Throne of God and is the seven spirits of God. Why doesn't 'he' have a name?


No name? "Helper", "Comforter", "Guide"?? He/it teaches, comforts, guides, reminds, works through us. These all seem to me as personality functions.

Regards.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
It's incomprehensible and most Trinitarians will tell you it cannot be understood!

You haven't answered any of my questions.

IF the holy spirit was ONE person equal to God and Jesus, he would have a name, and he would be found in or around the Throne of God. IF the Trinity was true, it would be clearly expressed in the bible. It's not. There is no Trinitarian formula in the bible. Here is the Throne of God, Jesus is there, the Father God is there, where is the holy spirit? Can you tell me?

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

________________________________________________________________________

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
God is Spirit. You will never understand the trinity using material concepts.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
1. Where in the Scripture does it say that God is unitarian? (or that God exist as one person?)

Note: Nowhere in Scripture is God defined as one person, but rather as one Being: mono (from monos, meaning, alone or only one) and theism (from theos, meaning, God). Oneness adherents (along with Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses) wrongly assume that the concept or word “one” when referring to God (e.g., Deut. 6:4) has the strict denotative meaning of absolute solitude. Arguing unipersonalism (unitarianism) assumes a conclusion that is meant to be proved. 10 Questions to ask Oneness PENTECOSTALS

Any takers?
 

Malsi Si Live

Active Member
Dec 29, 2018
62
25
28
hacinsack
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
God is Spirit. You will never understand the trinity using material concepts.
What material concepts are you referring to? I'm looking at Jesus' own words and at the text in the original text. You are providing nothing but empty words.

You will never understand there is NO trinity believing teachings of others.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
What material concepts are you referring to? I'm looking at Jesus' own words and at the text in the original text. You are providing nothing but empty words.

You will never understand there is NO trinity believing teachings of others.
You still have not explained Jesus' baptism revealing the three persons of the Godhead all present at once. This alone refutes everything you've said so far.

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)
 

Malsi Si Live

Active Member
Dec 29, 2018
62
25
28
hacinsack
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
1. Where in the Scripture does it say that God is unitarian? (or that God exist as one person?)

Note: Nowhere in Scripture is God defined as one person, but rather as one Being: mono (from monos, meaning, alone or only one) and theism (from theos, meaning, God). Oneness adherents (along with Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses) wrongly assume that the concept or word “one” when referring to God (e.g., Deut. 6:4) has the strict denotative meaning of absolute solitude. Arguing unipersonalism (unitarianism) assumes a conclusion that is meant to be proved. 10 Questions to ask Oneness PENTECOSTALS

Any takers?
Sure.

Sometime the word God is in the plural, sometimes in the singular. Strong's has a trinitarian slant to his pages and when doesn't expose it when it's SINGULAR. Take a look at the Textus Receptus on 1 Peter and go to verse 23 and look at the word God. It's in the singular...

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1pe1.pdf

In fact, Peter uses the word God often and you can look in any verse here...
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

And confirm it here...

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

That the word is almost always singular.
 

Harvest 1874

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2018
1,100
573
113
62
Tampa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Philippians 2:5-9 KJV
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Phil 2:5-8

This the common or authorized translation of the text is the most wretched, entirely perverting the sense of the passage and the context, as agreed by all competent authorities on the Holy Scriptures.

Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” This appears to say that Jesus was equal with God and did not consider it wrong to be so, that he did not consider such equality as robbing God of anything. Again we sense something is wrong and ask, “Is this scripture correctly translated?

Going back to the original Greek, we find that the King James Version has added one small word and omitted one small word, completely reversing the meaning of the text.

Thus the expression “thought it (added word) not robbery to be equal with God,” should read, “Thought not by (omitted word) robbery, to be equal with God.” Accordingly, the Diaglott correctly renders the text: “Who, though being in God's form, yet did not meditate a usurpation to be like God.” Here Jesus, the humble and obedient Son of God, is contrasted with the arrogant and disobedient Satan, who is quoted as saying:

I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.”--Isa 14:13, 14

The Revised Standard Version states it so, "Who, though he was in the form of God (a spirit being), did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Can anyone try to be equal with himself?

Rather, Jesus did not strive by vainglory to grasp God’s preeminence. Phil 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death."

If Jesus were God, whom would God have to become obedient to? No one! Therefore, this must be another entity, namely, his only begotten Son, clearly distinguishable from the Heavenly Father.

The scriptures state that God has highly exalted our Lord. Had he been on equality with God before, how could he have been highly exalted after? Why should a third party exalt him when he could just as easily exalt himself?

This whole line of reasoning is unsound, and those who ascribe to it give evidence of a lack of the “spirit of a sound mind”.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Sure.

Sometime the word God is in the plural, sometimes in the singular. Strong's has a trinitarian slant to his pages and when doesn't expose it when it's SINGULAR. Take a look at the Textus Receptus on 1 Peter and go to verse 23 and look at the word God. It's in the singular...

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1pe1.pdf

In fact, Peter uses the word God often and you can look in any verse here...
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

And confirm it here...

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

That the word is almost always singular.
So God as plural disproves your one person theory? I agree.
 

Malsi Si Live

Active Member
Dec 29, 2018
62
25
28
hacinsack
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
You still have not explained Jesus' baptism revealing the three persons of the Godhead all present at once. This alone refutes everything you've said so far.

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)
Either you don't understand the Trinity doctrine or you're simply in denial. That proves absolutely NOTHING about a co-equal trinity. You provide empty words.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
2. If God is unitarian, how do you explain passages such as Genesis 19:24 where Yahweh (“LORD”), rained brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven?

Note: there are many places in the OT where God is presented as multi-personal (e.g., plural nouns, verbs, nouns, prepositions, and plural adjectives were used of God, i.e., “Us,” “Our,” in Gen. 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7-9; Isa. 6:8; 54:5; Prov. 30:3; John 14:23]; Yahweh to Yahweh and Elohim (“God”) to Elohim correspondences in passages such as Gen. 19:24; Ps. 45:6-7; Hos. 1:6-7; etc.). 10 Questions to ask Oneness PENTECOSTALS
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Either you don't understand the Trinity doctrine or you're simply in denial. That proves absolutely NOTHING about a co-equal trinity. You provide empty words.
We still haven't tackled Jesus' baptism and the three persons of God then present.