Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

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Waiting on him

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Greek: σωφρονισμός
Transliteration: sōphronismos
Pronunciation: so-fron-is-mos'
Definition: From G4994; discipline that is selfcontrol: - sound mind.
KJV Usage: sound mind (1x).
Occurs: 1
In verses: 1Is this definition wrong?
Because I understood that scripture to mean I don’t react in fear, rather self control. You know with love
 

Malsi Si Live

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I do understand the analogy. I just find that husbands and wives aren't always in agreement in the same way I believe Persons in the Godhead are. And I also read where you wrote where you said "Godhead" is a bad translation.

Thanks for the info/opinons. Not so much for the personal shot.

Good day.
The "OH Dear", demanded questioning your discernment. As far as the word Godhead goes, it's used 3 times in the NT and translated as DIVINE, DIVINITY, or DEITY in the interlinear. None of those words imply a co-equal trio of God the Father. Take a look,

Acts 17:29...

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act17.pdf

Romans 1:20

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom1.pdf

Colossians 2:9

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/col2.pdf
 
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Harvest 1874

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Greek: σωφρονισμός
Transliteration: sōphronismos
Pronunciation: so-fron-is-mos'
Definition: From G4994; discipline that is selfcontrol: - sound mind.
KJV Usage: sound mind (1x).
Occurs: 1
In verses: 1Is this definition wrong?

A discipline mind is one which is not prone to mere hearsay nor to the "assumptions" and "opinions" of others, but one which is able to reason for itself (through the divine testimony), it is not blown about by every wind of doctrine or teaching, in this case the doctrine of the Trinity, but is one of self-control. It seeks facts in order to establish doctrine not the vain babblings of men who are constantly contradicting themselves whilst they vainly attempt to prove that which they themselves admittedly profess they don't fully understand.
 

Malsi Si Live

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Harvest said,
We only delved into the root meaning of “spirit” to emphasize that like the “wind” it is an invisible and powerful influence. This spirit proceeds from the Father; it is his holy essence, his holy disposition, thus his spirit, even as the same spirit or disposition is found in Christ and all who abide in his spirit.

This spirit has no personality per say for it is, as stated, a power or influence, not a person.

I agree with that. However, I believe that POWER comes from the seven spirits of God which is likely seven different hierarchies of angels whose power is overseen and executed by archangels. That's the most logical way I can describe it anyway.
 

Malsi Si Live

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A discipline mind is one which is not prone to mere hearsay nor to the "assumptions" and "opinions" of others, but one which is able to reason for itself (through the divine testimony), it is not blown about by every wind of doctrine or teaching, in this case the doctrine of the Trinity, but is one of self-control. It seeks facts in order to establish doctrine not the vain babblings of men who are constantly contradicting themselves whilst they vainly attempt to prove that which they themselves admittedly profess they don't fully understand.
Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book, The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).
He then remarkably concludes, “The fact that it cannot be satisfactorily explained, instead of being against it, is in its favor” (p. 23).
 

Malsi Si Live

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Cyril Richardson, professor of church history at New York’s Union Theological Seminary, though a dedicated Trinitarian himself, said this in his book The Doctrine of The Trinity:

“My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct . . . It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms” (1958, pp. 148-149).
 

Waiting on him

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A discipline mind is one which is not prone to mere hearsay nor to the "assumptions" and "opinions" of others, but one which is able to reason for itself (through the divine testimony), it is not blown about by every wind of doctrine or teaching, in this case the doctrine of the Trinity, but is one of self-control. It seeks facts in order to establish doctrine not the vain babblings of men who are constantly contradicting themselves whilst they vainly attempt to prove that which they themselves admittedly profess they don't fully understand.
Not sure I understand how all you’ve said is in contrast to fear?

Not a spirit of fear, but of a sound mind I’ll pray over it

Thanks
 

Malsi Si Live

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Martin Luther, the German priest who initiated the Protestant Reformation, conceded, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (reproduced in The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, editor, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406).
 

Harvest 1874

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Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book, The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).
He then remarkably concludes, “The fact that it cannot be satisfactorily explained, instead of being against it, is in its favor” (p. 23).

The LAW OF CONTRADICTION states if a rational reason cannot be given in a contradiction, then both cannot be true or false at the same time and in the same sense. If the trinity is a mystery and cannot be reasoned then it is inherent contradiction and cannot be true.
 

101G

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You cannot refute the trinity present in Jesus' baptism. Therein lies your problem.
no Dave, there was no three person at the lord Jesus Baptism.

only the Lord Jesus "the Christ" who is the Diversified "Share of the "Spirit" that descended "LIKE" a dove. that voice is not God from heaven,
Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

the scriptures do not say it is the LORD, or God's Voice, I have pointeded out to you that an angel can speak for God out of Heaven. so it's you who has the problem because you're missing one of your "persons" at the baptism of our Lord Jesus.

the scriptures states "don't add to them, nor take away from them. ".
so your assessment is incorrect, and your doctoral belife is in ERROR.
 

justbyfaith

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I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater. I believe him when he said he doesn't know the day or hour of his return. I believe him when he says he can do nothing on his own.

I believe Him when He says those things too. It doesn't change the fact in my mind, that He is God.

I also believe him when he said blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not. If they were the same person blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other. Other issues I have with Trinity is IF the holy spirit is a separate person "why doesn't the holy spirit have a name, and why isn't he found in or around the Throne of God?"

I can tell you why. The Holy Spirit IS the Seven Spirits of God.

The Holy Spirit is not separate but distinct. He is sent in Jesus' Name (John 14:26, Acts of the Apostles 3:20).

It's incoherent to say Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

How is it incoherent?

Saying Jesus is God plays right up into the hands of Atheism. We know God cannot be tempted and He cannot sin. That means that Jesus could not have been tempted or sinned anyway making Jesus a fraud and the cross a hoax to no effect.

Jesus was tempted in His humanity (Matthew 4:2); not in His Deity. He was both human and divine.

The Pharisees believed that because Jesus said God was his Father, to them, that made him equal to God. Jesus never said he was God, never said he was equal to God, and he is never called God the son.

I don't believe the Pharisees.

It wasn't the Pharisees that testified to the fact that Jesus made Himself equal with God: it was the apostle John (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in John 5:18).

After the Pharisees said that, that's when Jesus rebuked them and replied...

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus uses the word Father 14 times in Chapter 5. Over and over again in the NT he proves his subordination to the Father.

It is clear from John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 in my kjv Bible that Jesus is God. He also claimed to be God in John 8:24 and John 8:58; and His claim was not lost on the Pharisees if it is lost on you. They understood that He was, indeed, claiming to be God (John 8:59, John 10:31-33, Exodus 3:14) when He claimed to be the great I AM.

If there are things that you do not understand it is important to start with doctrines that are knowable and essential and learn from there. Jesus was subordinate to the Father because he came down Himself to set an example of what it means to be obedient; and how else do humans created by the Lord operate in obedience other than in dependence upon and surrender to the Holy Spirit?

To say Jesus is equal to God has an overwhelming number of contradiction problems. I go with the least contradictory interpretation. There is no such thing as a Trinity.

That is a lie from the pit of hell. What contradiction problems do you find?

Trinity is a doctrine devised by the Catholic's in the 3-4th century that the Protestants adopted.
It's actually one of the most divisive doctrines in this debacled religion.

Actually, it is those who deny the Trinity who are being divisive.
 
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Malsi Si Live

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You cannot refute the trinity present in Jesus' baptism. Therein lies your problem.
Your problem is you have no depth, no hermeneutic, no understand what the Trinity doctrine teaches, and you haven't bothered to answer even one of my questions. Good job.
 
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Dave L

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Your problem is you have no depth, no hermeneutic, no understand what the Trinity doctrine teaches, and you haven't bothered to answer even one of my questions. Good job.
If you could refute the trinitarian presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism, we could both be doing something more productive. Until then how do you answer this?

3. If God is unitarian, why are there so many plural descriptions in the OT (viz. plural nouns, adjectives, verbs, prepositions) to describe the one God? (as seen above).

Example: in Isaiah 54:5, “Maker” is plural in Hebrew, lit., “Makers”; same with Psalm 149:2 where “Maker” is in the plural in Hebrew. The same can be said in Ecclesiastes 12:1, where the Hebrew literally reads, “Remember also your Creators” (plural in Heb.). Thus, because God is tri-personal He can be described as both “Maker” and “Makers” and as “Creator” and “Creators.” He is one Being, not one Person—a point that is repeatedly brought to bear by the OT authors. 10 Questions to ask Oneness PENTECOSTALS
 
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101G

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"The Father is Greater than I", a common question without KNOWLEDGE.
let's go straight for the jugular. is a servant, "Greater than his master?".
John 13:16 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

so we as servants of the Lord Jesus are we "GREATER THAN" him, our Master?, let's see.
John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

well that just put the plug into the faucet, for if the servant is doing "GREATER" work than his master then the Lord Jesus ERRORED in John 13:16.

so do we have a dilemma here? of course not. one must understand the term "GREATER". as said lets go straight for the jugular.
here in this verse in question is not the word GREAT, but, "GREATER", it's an Adjective, as used here, and not an Adverb, this is very important. the word GREATER is the Greek word G3187 meizon (meid'-zone) adj.
1. larger (specially, in age)
{literally or figuratively}
[irregular comparative of G3173]
KJV: elder, greater(-est), more Root(s): G3173

Dictionary.com as an Adjective, (of a city) considered with the inclusion of the outer suburbs: Greater London. here the definitions are indicating quantity, (MORE), instead of quality, (SUPERIOR).
quantity: "an exact or specified amount or measure".

the key to prove the point is when he, the Lord Jesus said in John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father".

Why is this so important? because when he go to his Father/Spirit, he is Glorified in the Spirit, meaning it is he who dwells in ust to do the "GREATER" works. supportive scripture,
John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it". so if a christian is in New York, and ask Jesus to heal a lame person, at the Same time in Dallas Texas, if asked there to heal a sick Child, it is all done, hence the glorification of the Spirit. everywhere at the same time.

Yes, the Spirit is "GREATER" in quantity, (MORE), becaust the Lord Jesus is in flesh in one place at one time, just like us. the Lord Jesus while on Earth in FLESH could only heal those who came in contact with physically, or they had the FAITH to believe.

Conclusion: "GREATER" in quantity, (MORE), instead of quality, (SUPERIOR).
 

Malsi Si Live

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justbyfaith said,
Actually, it is those who deny the Trinity who are being divisive.
Non Trinitarians don't condemn Trinitarians. Trinitarians condemn those of us who reject the false teaching.
Trinitarian's are the divisive ones.
That is a lie from the pit of hell. What contradiction problems do you find?
How many times do I have to post them? I know the typical trinitarian cop out of "That was because of his humanity."

Trinity teaches co-equality in power and knowledge. Jesus said, "the Father is Greater." BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Jesus said he didn't know the day or hour of his return but ONLY the Father knows. Did Jesus forget? Or did he not know in the first place? BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Jesus said blasphemy against him would be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit would not. IF they are two the same blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other! BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Jesus said he can do nothing on his own. BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Jesus is called the “Son of God” more than 50 times in the Bible. Not once is he called “God the Son.” BOOM! Trinity debunked!

Jesus said, “I ascend to my Father and your Father" and..."Jesus called the Father “my God” both before and after his resurrection." BOOM! Trinity debunked!
It wasn't the Pharisees that testified to the fact that Jesus made Himself equal with God: it was the apostle John (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in John 5:18).

The Pharisees believed Jesus was equating hiself with God simply because he claimed to come from God. John simply recorded the conversation. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees afterwards saying, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
Jesus was tempted in His humanity (Matthew 4:2); not in His Deity. He was both human and divine.
That makes no sense. I know he was tempted because he was human, but if he was God, the contradiction exist that God cannot be tempted!
How is it incoherent
How can anyone say it's NOT incoherent/incomprehensible when Trinitarian's themselves agree that it is!

There's nothing logical about the Trinity!
The Holy Spirit is not separate but distinct. He is sent in Jesus' Name
Well then if he is NOT separate then Jesus was just wrong when he said
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 
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Marymog

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yes the sda is just as rotten just read my post to @BreadOfLife should i post again

Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

God bless
Hey dodge ball king.....How about answering my question?

I suspect you didn’t answer because if you did you would reveal how ignorant your statements are.

Patient Mary
 

Malsi Si Live

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If you could refute the trinitarian presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism, we could both be doing something more productive. Until then how do you answer this?

3. If God is unitarian, why are there so many plural descriptions in the OT (viz. plural nouns, adjectives, verbs, prepositions) to describe the one God? (as seen above).

Example: in Isaiah 54:5, “Maker” is plural in Hebrew, lit., “Makers”; same with Psalm 149:2 where “Maker” is in the plural in Hebrew. The same can be said in Ecclesiastes 12:1, where the Hebrew literally reads, “Remember also your Creators” (plural in Heb.). Thus, because God is tri-personal He can be described as both “Maker” and “Makers” and as “Creator” and “Creators.” He is one Being, not one Person—a point that is repeatedly brought to bear by the OT authors. 10 Questions to ask Oneness PENTECOSTALS

Meaningless because God is presented in both singular and plural. Only three times he's presented in the plural in the OT!
 

101G

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3. If God is unitarian, why are there so many plural descriptions in the OT (viz. plural nouns, adjectives, verbs, prepositions) to describe the one God? (as seen above).
if you don't mind Dave I'll answer that.

God in the OLD TESTAMENT speaks in the plural of what to come. the "diversity" of himself in flesh. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come".

God came in person in flesh, better known as the OFFSPRING. hence the US and the OUR.

as for Isaiah 54:5, "thy MAKER" is the Spirit, and that same Spirit shared himself in flesh and "blood" because he is the redeemer as a man. supportive scripture,
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Ecclesiastes 12:1,
Isaiah 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding".
"EVERLASTING?", Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting". THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE IN MATTHEWS CHAPTER 2 CONCERING THE LORD JESUS BIRTH.
Matthew 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Matthew 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

and lastely , the "CREATOR" is thy "MAKER",
John 1:10 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
"made" here is
G1096 γίνομαι ginomai (ǰiy'-no-mai) v.
1. to cause to be (“gen”-erate).
2. (reflexively) to become (come into being).
3. (of events) to happen.

God the Holy Spirit, Jesus, in Flesh is the cause of the world to be, he's the CREATOR.

and yes, he's one BEING, who is ONE PERSON who "diversified" himself, or "SHARED" HIMSELF in flesh, or a body or an earthen Temple.

there is no way around it, ONE BEING, Sharing oneself in another form. this is what the Greeks say is G243 Allos, according to Vine's dictionary, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort.

what's a numerical difference? one... two, and what's a "same" sort, .... NATURE.
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

Form here is "NATURE. and what is GOD nature? Spirit, (John 4:24)a

how simple.
 

mjrhealth

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Hey dodge ball king.....How about answering my question?

I suspect you didn’t answer because if you did you would reveal how ignorant your statements are.

Patient Mary
Patient,, you are the funny one.. Not biting your hooks are laced with poison.

God bless