Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

[bbyrd009]

jumped to the conclusion that so-and-so "never will" come to the truth?

well, we are just talking, and the Arab thing was more like an illustration of the results, from the other side iow, but imo we are surely all susceptible to "having" expectations of others I guess. Um but if you want to see magic today one powerful way to do that is to lose your expectations of others.

A mother might shield one of their kids from engaging in certain roles that they have shown some weakness in, rather than intentionally putting them in that role again the very next day, or even not display a fearful countenance at a black guy walking up to them in a parking lot after dark maybe. Tv even uses these expectations to produce comedy or tragedy? They might even only be Assumptions too I guess?

And we have to make many assumptions every day I guess, in order to even function; the "ass out of you and me" thing makes a cute joke but likely isn't very pertinent except when applied to invalid assumptions. The tourist couple in the one-room schoolhouse at the end of Thunderbolt and Lightfoot were victims bc of their assumptions, and might even have died or really suffered had they displayed them to diff people I guess

edit--another way of perceiving the concept is "projection" I guess, the spirits we project maybe w/o realizing it?

 

[bbyrd009]

Saying things are facts because they come from the bible before the bible has been demonstrated to be from god or true is fallacious.



I studies the bible, was in bible classes for years at my church, read many apologetic books, videos and websites etc. I found the arguments sufficient at that time. Such as the argument from design, cosmological argument, ontological argument, seemingly answered prayer, I had a dream once where an angel spoke to me, I believed that my faith was proof as well. I believed the eyewitness accounts in the bible of the resurrection etc. I believed god spoke to me in my thoughts so to speak or with impressions. These are some of the reasons I believed.



I am not put out because people are skeptic of my intentions, I an put out because my ideas are misrepresented all the time here. Such as I deny god exists.

This needs o be confirmed or demonstrated in some way.

I sincerely sought and believed for many years.

nice, I guess I pretty much agree

so, what would you like to see happen here Vince, are you looking for suggestions on how to find faith, or sympathy for your loss, or what exactly?

 

[bbyrd009]

Saying things are facts because they come from the bible before the bible has been demonstrated to be from god or true is fallacious.



I studies the bible, was in bible classes for years at my church, read many apologetic books, videos and websites etc. I found the arguments sufficient at that time. Such as the argument from design, cosmological argument, ontological argument, seemingly answered prayer, I had a dream once where an angel spoke to me, I believed that my faith was proof as well. I believed the eyewitness accounts in the bible of the resurrection etc. I believed god spoke to me in my thoughts so to speak or with impressions. These are some of the reasons I believed.



I am not put out because people are skeptic of my intentions, I an put out because my ideas are misrepresented all the time here. Such as I deny god exists.

This needs o be confirmed or demonstrated in some way.

I sincerely sought and believed for many years.

and maybe more importantly now, why have you repeatedly avoided the question?

important for you though ok, idc particularly now, as you have cherry-picked me to realization here now, even admitting I am not the most patient person in the world by any stretch. And best of luck, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Hypocrites, wanting evidence of God's "existence"

Matthew 12:39 Lexicon: But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

 

[Vince]

It's look at me giving and look what I did ! that's the Atheist point of view.

Atheists don't have a point of view on giving they only have a lack of belief in god. The only thing that atheists have in common is a common lack of belief in gods. There are plenty of atheists out there doing good without anyone knowing about them.

But from the Christian point of view it's not me that did any giving, it's the response due to Jesus not me, but Jesus only, I do not claim anything of my self and I do not tell anyone what I did or done ever or want recognition.

Good for you. Atheists do the same.

Atheists are a rabble that have more gods than you can poke a stick at regardless of what they may claim, they are only just too ignorant to know the fact.

Name them please.

Look at all the Socialist and wealthy right wing extremist clowns, they have gods that they peddle and worship 24/7.
Communism is a god don't you know, that moronic idiots follow, just as it is with Socialism and it's Political Correctness gods that you must follow ? or they will deal with you ! so as to make sure you follow such madness, or they will willingly work to destroy you and your family career etc etc in a heart beat and you are not allowed to think for yourself as that is forbidden, as you are just truly only seen as a nigga to them, enslaved like cattle that they do as they please with, that's the difference the Government owns you and they are your god and the poor stupid atheist does not know he is only a poor stupid foolish nigga enslaved by his own pathetic degenerate ignorance.

This has nothing to do with atheism. Like I said atheists believe a lot of different things, the only thing we share is a lack of belief in gods.

If you do not know Jesus Christ you are just a slave ! and nothing that you do is worthy of God.
If Jesus Christ is not truly in the picture, such is worthless.

Maybe to your god but not to the people they help or as you call them pets.

 

[Vince]

Vince, idc if you want to call yourself an atheist, I was mostly testing your resilience, your willingness to bend a little, ok. Fwiw I'll say that I already know for a fact, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the "Christian" god we are presented with today does not exist; and I am hardly alone in this I don't think

ag·nos·tic
/aɡˈnästik/
noun

1. 1.
   a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
   synonyms: sceptic, doubter, questioner, doubting Thomas, challenger, scoffer, cynic; More
   
   Now in that context you might reply to some of the last questions?
   What do you expect to get from CB?

I am not an agnostic because per your definition they don't believe anything can be known about the existence or nature of god. I think that if a god exists we should be able to know about the nature of that god.

My expectations here have nothing to do with the arguments for the existence of a god.

 

[Vince]

ex·ist
/iɡˈzist/
verb

1. 1.
   have objective reality or being.
   "there existed no organization to cope with espionage"
   
   See, God does not "exist" at all, in a very real sense. Attempting to attribute existence to God is a fool's errand, wadr. This is exactly why early Christians were deemed Atheists, the very thing you claim to be right.

1. Nope. The early Christians believed god existed, I have not made that claim.

Although this has been warped now I guess, and many "Christians" and even Muslims might confidently say that they are going to tell God stuff "when they meet Him" or whatever...do you think you might change their minds?

On whether god exists? I don't know, I don't know the future.

I could tell you how to be sure about God in a week, or surely less than two;
but wadr I don't think you are ready to go there. Christ is much more accessible, even through Nehushtan, ok. Christ you are already quite fam with, see

Right. You can prove to me god exists but you won't. Whatever.

 

[Vince]

No. When "I" say Fact. When "I" say Scriptural Source. "I" am revealing "I" trust Scripture as a "Factual Source".
Regardless if MY source is acceptable to an other.

That is "MY" Bellief, "MY' testimony. Period.

You have made it CLEAR, "YOU" Do not Trust Scripture as a VIABLE SOURCE for yourself.

Ok, I don't believe that facts are true for one person and not for another. Facts are true whether anyone thinks they are or not. But I understand what you are saying.

Thank you for sharing...
What you have shared is...akin to what many other men do, and ALSO created "angels".

Hearing, Listening, Reading, the word of God, OF men Debating and Arguing the word of God, OF men Debating and Arguing Scientific Leaning....

Perhaps you would Consider this:

"EVERYTHING" (scripture, scientists, news outlets, politicians, teachers, parents, friends, salesmen, spouses, heavenly spirits, evil spirit etc.) you hear, listen to, read...
"IS INTENDED TO INFLUENCE YOU".

WHAT and WHEN and WHY you choose to Believe what YOU will, IS EXPRESSLY "your Choice"

I disagree. No one chooses what they believe. They are either convinced or not based on the information they have. Could you choose to believe the moon is made of cheese? You could act like you did but you would not really believe it is. I did not choose to believe in god, I did believe in god because the informative I had I thought was convincing. I really did believe in god for many years. Once other evidence and reason was introduced to me I started to see why my reasons for believing were flawed and I became unconvinced that god exists. If god wants to provide other evidence that would convince me he does exist he is free to do so.

And there are CONSEQUENCES FOR "WHAT" and "WHOM" you FREELY CHOOSE to Believe.

This is a fundamental disagreement we have. You think you can choose what you believe I don't.

YOU freely Choose to BELIEVE;
A spouse, A politician, A teacher, A salesman, Scripture, etc....OR NOT.

YOU freely have the Congnative Ability to Cipher "IF" the spouse, politician, teacher, salesman, Scripture, etc.....
IS Information and Knowledge, that IS APPLICABLE to YOU Specific....OR NOT.

YOU freely have the Congnative Ability to Cipher "IF" the spouse, politician, salesman, Scripture, etc....
Tricked you, Lied to you, Defrauded you, etc.

YOU freey have the CHOICE to WALK AWAY, and not INVEST your time and effort "IN" an other who has Tricked you, Lied to you, Defrauded you, etc.

All of this is based on evidence and my beliefs follow how I interpret that evidence. I cannot believe a politician is telling me the truth if I have evidence he is lying. It is not a choice, the choice is what to do about it what you believe.

You have NOT expressed, WHAT YOU TRULY EXPECTED for your having INVESTED TIME in Bible Study Classes, Reading Books, Watching Videos, Having Debates, Etc.

The Lords WAY is SIMPLE...
Seek the KNOWLEDGE "ABOUT" Him.
VERIFY what you HEAR from "OTHERS"...
WITH WHAT HE proclaims, and THAT WHICH actually APPLIES specifically TO YOU...

The WHOLE BIG PICTURE is about An INDIVIDUAL man;
Deciding to HEAR About God, About the Lord..
Deciding to VERIFY what he HEARS...
Deciding to TRUST what he HEARS...
Deciding to CONTINUE even when he LACKS UNDERSTANDING.
Deciding to make a STANDING of COMMITMENT to God, to the Lord.

DO YOU SEE...what JUST HAPPENED?
The "THRID" parties, (teachers, preachers, parents, etc.) were JUST REMOVED from the Equasion....
THEIR INFLUENCE, arguments, dictating, etc....JUST BECAME MOOT...ie IRRELEVANT!

The BIG Picture is IF YOU TRULY DESIRE a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP and STANDING with THEE LORD GOD;
"YOU ALONE," have to DECIDE if you are WILLING TO TRUST "HIM", regardless of WHAT OTHER MEN decide.

Every MORTAL man BEGINS his Natural Mortal Life, USING his SENSES...
Sight, hearing, Logical weighting of what makes sense to his MIND...etc.

God is NOT a salesman, trying to CONVINCE your MIND of ANYTHING.

God DOES NOT PROMISE you, He will Step in and FIX all your DEALINGS with; spouses, parents, teachers, salesmen, etc....that DIDN'T work out as YOU Believed or were Told, or Expected.

Nor WILL God FIX any lies or underhanded things you may have done to Others.

All of YOUR dealings with OTHER PEOPLE, are for YOU to enjoy, and for YOU to suffer the Consequences should they not TURN out as YOU hoped or expected.

All of this is just saying "fake it til you make it." Because no one can choose to believe anything they are not convinced of by the evidence they have.

And ALL of YOUR dealings WITH GOD, are for you to enjoy, and for YOU to suffer the Consequences should YOU back out on what you AGREED TO.

TO the point ~
You reveal your influences.
You reveal you "once" believed.
You revealed you may have claimed to "believe" for the wrong reasons.
You reveal you "have" not seen God.
You reveal you 'have" not heard God.
You reveal you "have" sought through prayer.

I did believe I heard god many time through prayer and dreams.

You reveal satisfaction in dubbing yourself an Ahteist.

I did not say this at all. I just want to be accurately portrayed and not lied about what I believe.

You revealed your frustration.

My frustration comes from people here telling me what I believe when I don't believe those things and have been clear explaining them.

You revealed your solution is for SOMEONE to demonstrate PROOF of Gods existance, it must be PROOF according to YOUR "caveat".

No caveat, I don't require proof just sufficient evidence. No one can know anything for 100% sure. We can only asses the likelihood of truth based on the evidence we have at the time.

You appear, as one who comes to a Forum where Believers gather, to Challenge a Converted man, TO CONVERT YOU.

AGAIN...IT is YOU ALONE, who has to FREELY CHOOSE to HAVE a Relationshiip with God, with the Lord.

There are NO MAGIC Words that Transforms a man from a naturally born man, to a spiritually born man.

It is a PROCESS, BETWEEN YOU exclusively and the Lord.

There is ONLY ONE REASON, to BELIEVE and ONLY ONE REASON to NOT BELIEVE....
ANYONE else....be it a spouse, teacher, parent, God.

PEOPLE BELIEVE...."WHOM THEY TRUST".
People "TRUST"...those WHOM are HONEST with them.

YOU have to DECIDE and be honest with yourself, of WHY you DO NOT TRUST God.

It is not a trust issue it is an evidence issue. I cannot put trust in someone that I don't know exists.

Stop with the superficial mindful "believed, don't believe" and get to the real issue.

God is NOT Listening to YOUR MIND.
Did you READ THAT? STUDY THAT?
Did you DISCOVER "WHAT" God Listens to when A MORTAL Natural Born Man SEEKS after God?

Just saying; men can tell me all day long they have been searching for a car, believed they would find one, no longer believe they can find one....
And then come to find out, they have been searching in a Junk Yard, instead of a Car Lot, I am not a bit surprised at their frustrating conclusion.

Again you just say believe on faith. That is what this boils down to. Faith is not a reasonable pathway to truth.

 

[Vince]

and maybe more importantly now, why have you repeatedly avoided the question?

important for you though ok, idc particularly now, as you have cherry-picked me to realization here now, even admitting I am not the most patient person in the world by any stretch. And best of luck, ok

My motivations have nothing to do with the truthfulness of the claims that god exists.

 

[Vince]

Hypocrites, wanting evidence of God's "existence"

Matthew 12:39 Lexicon: But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

If you don't have evidence for gods existence then why don't you believe in Allah or Zeus? Why believe in the biblical god?

 

[bbyrd009]

1. Nope. The early Christians believed god existed, I have not made that claim.

On whether god exists? I don't know, I don't know the future.

Right. You can prove to me god exists but you won't. Whatever.

? I thought I had proven that God does not "exist," but ok.
The early Christians did not believe that God existed, sorry, we have a whole chapter on this, but I mean pls you can't even read me ok

you might recall that I began by telling you that you are doing fine, right;
so, I played a tambourine and you didn't dance, I sang a dirge and you didn't mourn; see what that means about the nature of God?

I think that if a god exists we should be able to know about the nature of that god.

My expectations here have nothing to do with the arguments for the existence of a god.

one of these seems maybe close, but they also seem kind of contradictory, written like that anyway.

Would the first one be close enough? Bc that can be known, using the scientific method even. Although God still is not going to "exist" like I'm pretty sure you (and I guess most believers?) are looking for ok. God is Spirit. You are maybe looking for an idol?

 

[bbyrd009]

If you don't have evidence for gods existence then why don't you believe in Allah or Zeus? Why believe in the biblical god?

well, short answer, for the same reason you have chosen to capitalize Allah and Zeus, but declined to capitalize God, would be one answer. Can you hear that?

 

[bbyrd009]

I think that if a god exists we should be able to know about the nature of that god.

So, briefly, God does not "exist," and we can know about the nature of God if we seek that.

 

[Vince]

? I thought I had proven that God does not "exist," but ok.
The early Christians did not believe that God existed, sorry, we have a whole chapter on this, but I mean pls you can't even read me ok

I have no idea what you are talking about. They were persecuted as atheists but they were true believers.

you might recall that I began by telling you that you are doing fine, right;
so, I played a tambourine and you didn't dance, I sang a dirge and you didn't mourn; see what that means about the nature of God?
one of these seems maybe close, but they also seem kind of contradictory, written like that anyway.

What I meant is that it doesn't matter what my reason is for being here because it has no effect on whether the arguments for gods existence are true or not. God exists or he doesn't and has nothing to do with my reasons for being here.

 

[Vince]

well, short answer, for the same reason you have chosen to capitalize Allah and Zeus, but declined to capitalize God, would be one answer. Can you hear that?

You cannot know what my motivations are for my punctuation. The real reason is that Allah and Zeus are proper names and the word god is not. This text editor capitalizes these names but not the word god. It just has to do with proper grammar, that is all. The god of the bible has many names I can use one of those if you like and I will capitalize that as well. I have capitalized Jesus here many times. This is just silly.

 

[Vince]

So, briefly, God does not "exist," and we can know about the nature of God if we seek that.

Your definition of exist is different than mine. We are not talking about the same thing. Can you define exist as you use it here?

 

[bbyrd009]

I have no idea what you are talking about. They were persecuted as atheists but they were true believers.

im just offering you a diff way to perceive there, ok. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the arguments were the same, and those "true believers" are being misrepresented. Believers in Zeus expected to see him someday if their works merited it, whereas the True Believers have made it very plain in Scripture that they do not expect this?

What I meant is that it doesn't matter what my reason is for being here because it has no effect on whether the arguments for gods existence are true or not. God exists or he doesn't and has nothing to do with my reasons for being here.

well, hopefully it has become clear that God does not "exist" in the manner that will suit you, the passages on Wind are maybe a little pedestrian for us now, with our knowledge, but the argument holds I guess

This text editor capitalizes these names but not the word god. It just has to do with proper grammar, that is all.

ok, I'm not aware of any text editor that does that with "God," but I'll take your word for that, no prob.

Your definition of exist is different than mine. We are not talking about the same thing. Can you define exist as you use it here?

ah, this tells me that I am wasting my time here wadr, I already did that?
ex·ist
/iɡˈzist/
verb

1. 1.
   have objective reality or being.

You have to realize that you are not the first believer to suffer a crisis of confidence/faith, right;
so I tell you again that this maybe seems like a bad thing, but it isn't, ok. Leaving the camp is hard, and most believers never get to where you are at right now I don't think. It's healthy, ok. Magical Thinking is a disease of the world

 

[Nancy]

well, we are just talking, and the Arab thing was more like an illustration of the results, from the other side iow, but imo we are surely all susceptible to "having" expectations of others I guess. Um but if you want to see magic today one powerful way to do that is to lose your expectations of others.

A mother might shield one of their kids from engaging in certain roles that they have shown some weakness in, rather than intentionally putting them in that role again the very next day, or even not display a fearful countenance at a black guy walking up to them in a parking lot after dark maybe. Tv even uses these expectations to produce comedy or tragedy? They might even only be Assumptions too I guess?

And we have to make many assumptions every day I guess, in order to even function; the "ass out of you and me" thing makes a cute joke but likely isn't very pertinent except when applied to invalid assumptions. The tourist couple in the one-room schoolhouse at the end of Thunderbolt and Lightfoot were victims bc of their assumptions, and might even have died or really suffered had they displayed them to diff people I guess

edit--another way of perceiving the concept is "projection" I guess, the spirits we project maybe w/o realizing it?

"Um but if you want to see magic today one powerful way to do that is to lose your expectations of others."

Ah, agreed. This has come back to bite me many times. I am learning to have no expectations of anybody anymore. Even if they say they will or will not do a thing...
You would think one would learn after awhile to have NO expectations from anybody. The hard part of that is when it is another person who goes by the Name above ALL Names - should we not be able to "assume/expect" them to NOT do certain things like, lying, stealing, manipulating and using another Christian? "Trust no man"

"And we have to make many assumptions every day I guess, in order to even function"
Yes we do and, we win some and we lose some...lot of lack of common sense around so, I never expect the grocery store checkout clerk to know what a red onion is, or a yam Yes, that is a trivial instance, lol but...you get my drift.
Have not seen Thunderboldt and Lightfoot I guess I can "assume" here, lol...that the tourist couple made an assumption that something was safe but was not?

"another way of perceiving the concept is "projection" I guess, the spirits we project maybe w/o realizing it?"

Agree, it can be seen even walking down a street and when passing someone...most pretty much ignore you anymore. BUT, I have noticed awhile back that when I say hello and smile AND look at them, even the grouchiest ones respond in kind...♥

 

[Vince]

im just offering you a diff way to perceive there, ok. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the arguments were the same, and those "true believers" are being misrepresented. Believers in Zeus expected to see him someday if their works merited it, whereas the True Believers have made it very plain in Scripture that they do not expect this?

Teh first christian believed god existed in some way whether spirit of physical. I do not believe this is reasonable based on the evidence.

well, hopefully it has become clear that God does not "exist" in the manner that will suit you, the passages on Wind are maybe a little pedestrian for us now, with our knowledge, but the argument holds I guess

No, you are just using the word exist differently. Its word games. You believe a God in some form is real, correct?

ok, I'm not aware of any text editor that does that with "God," but I'll take your word for that, no prob.

The etxt editor this forum uses does that.

ah, this tells me that I am wasting my time here wadr, I already did that?

No one is forcing you to have a conversation with me. But in a mature conversation clarification is something good.

 

[Nancy]

I apologize for this. I think I got this mixed up with another thought or post.


I am glad your life is better.

I apologize again.

I have and I am unconvinced.

I don't get angry when someone has a different opinion or comes to different conclusions than me, nor do I get angry if someone misunderstands me. What makes me angry is someone telling me that they know what I believe and how to identify myself. I am not saying you did this. bbyrd009 and others have consistently said that I don't believe god exists and that atheism is claim that a gods do not exist even though they have been showed their error. I have never told anyone that they don't really believe what the say they believe. Others have said that I believe in god but is suppressing that "truth" because of various reasons including that I just want to sin.

I believe you are not here to offend me. I do apologize for my unfair post.

Well, thank you for the graciously written reply ♥
And, I have not seen you ever saying that God does not exist, I only see you stating about evidence.
And, if I said anything in my reply that was unkind I am very sorry I was kind of mad at ya when I wrote it!! LOL. Not anymore though!
You have a good evening.
nancy