The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

We freely choose what we want based on the reasons God uses to control our choices.

So, in essence you are saying that God is not able to use our free will choices, goo or bad to His Glory? He can only "program" us to achieve His will??

 

[Dave L]

So, in essence you are saying that God is not able to use our free will choices, goo or bad to His Glory? He can only "program" us to achieve His will??

We glory if we choose good. But we only choose good for the reasons God used to control our good choices.

 

[Nancy]

We glory if we choose good. But we only choose good for the reasons God used to control our good choices.

So, why does God ask us to choose??

 

[Episkopos]

We glory if we choose good. But we only choose good for the reasons God used to control our good choices.

Nonsense... What winds of doctrine lead to in loss of all logic and perspective.

 

[Episkopos]

So, in essence you are saying that God is not able to use our free will choices, goo or bad to His Glory? He can only "program" us to achieve His will??

A puny god indeed. Can you imagine Jesus controlling Mary to pour the ointment on His head?! Utter foolishness. Did Jesus make a woman wash His feet? Of course not! Was the centurion mind-controlled into having faith in Christ? Why would Jesus be amazed then?

 

[Phoneman777]

Only if it it God's will and he causes you to choose doing that.

Why would God deliberately cause someone to choose the Lake of Fire when from Genesis to Revelation He pleads with the wicked -- ALL WICKED -- to turn from the way of destruction?

 

[Phoneman777]

I'll admit that string of verses does appear to support your doctrine.

I went through them. Lotsa expression of our Lord's will for us, but nothing that abrogates man's free will.

 

[Phoneman777]

Dave,
Is our God not good enough and all knowing enough to USE our choices for His good will? Does He have to force one to believe or not in order to show His Glory? Does God not want us to love Him on on our own, does He HAVE to force someone into it. That is not the God of the Bible I know. Since He knows the end from the beginning, everything in "time" has already happened. He knew already who would "Choose this day whom you will serve" Sure sounds like a "choice" there. There are myriad scriptures proving free will to choose. God turns all bad into good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...and what is His purpose? He "wishes" that none should perish, yet, many will because they did not CHOOSE life.
How can you say that Jesus shed blood on the cross covers only an elite few?
How do you interpret this scripture: 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." ? It seems very clear that He died for ALL people.

I wonder if Calvinists prefer the risk-free ownership of a pet robot dog programmed to show them affection over a real live dog which is capable of inflicting severe injury but chooses instead to shower his owner with his love and affection...I'll bet a bazillion dollars you'll not find a single one opting for iSpot.

 

[Nancy]

Nonsense... What winds of doctrine lead to in loss of all logic and perspective.

Doctrines of men? ...

 

[Nancy]

Doctrines of men? ...

Or...

 

[Phoneman777]

i read Reed Sea anyway, a diff place

and I wouldn't try to deny the possibility of a literal Exodus even now, but I have found perspectives that seem to fit better, I would say. The Exodus was real, but it was an Exodus from a School of Thought imo, a spiritual Exodus

I've heard of the Sea of Reeds. That account only serves to make the story of the Exodus more outstanding and God even more to be glorified - means He would have had to drown that entire Egyptian army in only a few inches of water LOL

 

[Phoneman777]

Every choice we freely make is based on the reason God used to control us.

So, God intentionally compelled Satan to rebel then?

 

[Phoneman777]

Or...

 

[Nancy]

I wonder if Calvinists prefer the risk-free ownership of a pet robot dog programmed to show them affection over a real live dog which is capable of inflicting severe injury but chooses instead to shower his owner with his love and affection...I'll bet a bazillion dollars you'll not find a single one opting for iSpot.

The Stepford children.

 

[Nancy]

The Stepford children.

...and pets

 

[Phoneman777]

“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22)

One had to become a Jew through circumcision to be in a position for salvation under the Mosaic covenant. Also under the Abrahamic covenant. (women/girls were considered circumcised through their circumcised fathers or husbands). But the promise to Abraham included gentiles after Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. So all believers are saved no matter their ethnicity. In this case "world" and "all men" = gentiles, not just Jews.

"Salvation is of the Jews" doesn't mean "limited to only Abraham's bloodline descendants" - it means "provided for the world through Abraham's bloodline descendants".

 

[Phoneman777]

The Stepford children.

???

 

[Nancy]

"Salvation is of the Jews" doesn't mean "limited to only Abraham's bloodline descendants" - it means "provided for the world through Abraham's bloodline descendants".

Not at all to mention Genesis 22:18 "and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

 

[Nancy]

???

Do you remember the movie "The Stepford Wives"? Where the men had their wives programmed? Oh gosh, am I dating myself?? Lol.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Stepford children.

Oh, i get it. What a dark story! What was it that turned them into zombies?