The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Phoneman777]

We base every choice on the exact reason God uses to control us.

God controls no one except they who submit to that control. He’s not a despot, he’s a kind Divine Gentlemen.

Has He not given us the MARRIAGE covenant to demonstrate that as the man loves his wife as Christ loved the church and is willing to die for her and she in reciprocation voluntarily submits to his love - so our relationship with Him is to be entered voluntarily?

 

[Dave L]

God controls no one except they who submit to that control. He’s not a despot, he’s a kind Divine Gentlemen.

Has He not given us the MARRIAGE covenant to demonstrate that as the man loves his wife as Christ loved the church and is willing to die for her and she in reciprocation voluntarily submits to his love - so our relationship with Him is to be entered voluntarily?

You freely choose for the reason God uses to control you. If this is not true, God is not God because he gives movement to all.

 

[Phoneman777]

I think most of the arch evidence you mention first has been debunked or called into question, I'm aware that a much smaller enclave has been substantiated, but the "chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea" thing got tossed a while back I think.

Anyway, I agree that the Egyptians would have sought to erase them in a literal Exodus scenario, but then archaeologists have means to detect that kind of thing too. Anyway, if you seek a literal Exodus I guess you will find one, but I suggest that if you go seeking without any premises you will find a different kind of Exodus, "God of the Vowel People" will be relevant there.

Bc we are also taught that "Hebrew has no vowels," right? Which is a lie, YHWH (a bad transliteration, as it turns out) are their vowels, you might even google "Hebrew has no vowels" or any of the other phrases in here and...test the theory, if you like. If you find any holes let me know if you would, ty

that isn't the direction I meant to go here, but I'll leave it for now

Beware the higher critics, bro. They are all too anxious to be revered as genius by the many godless “intellectuals” who think questioning the status quo is an irrefutable sign of it.

Whether we’re dealing with OOPARTS, Paleocurrents, Polonium Halos, Sweitzer’s Dino Bones, or whatever, Satan’s servants will stop at nothing to “blind the minds of them which believeth not”.

BTW, I think Red Sea chariot wheels are legit...and since archeologists are bankrolled so often by those who’d prefer the Bible be disproven, we’ve got to be doubly cautious.

 

[Phoneman777]

You freely choose for the reason God uses to control you

We first choose by awakened love for Him to submit to His control before He begins exercising loving control over us, in the same way the wife lovingly submits to the husband.

BTW, both she and we can throw off that control at any time.

 

[Dave L]

We first choose by awakened love for Him to submit to His control before He begins exercising loving control over us, in the same way the wife lovingly submits to the husband.

BTW, both she and we can throw off that control at any time.

Only if it it God's will and he causes you to choose doing that.

 

[friend of]

Deuteronomy 30:6 Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

However, He's not going to forcibly do this against the will of those who are obstinate, otherwise Israel wouldn't have rebelled 100000x in the OT.

We base every choice on the exact reason God uses to control us.

You may choose this or free will; you cant have both.

Man cannot resist the power of God. Theses verses do not have any options to resist in them; they simply say that God does things and humans respond.

I'll admit that string of verses does appear to support your doctrine.

As for Acts, this verse actually shows the need for the I in TULIP. If this is the state of the unregenerate man, as you claim it is, then how could anything BUT Irresistible Grace save men? If these men will resist the power of God, how can they in and of themselves be saved?

Why did Paul bother preaching to these people in Acts 4 if they were just going to blow him off? Why would Paul ask "why do you always resist the Spirit?" wouldn't Paul be fully aware that they resist because God hasn't called them? I think we can both agree that being rhetorical with these people would be pointless endeavor on his part. 1 Corinthians 1:22-23

 

[Nancy]

You freely choose for the reason God uses to control you. If this is not true, God is not God because he gives movement to all.

Dave,
Is our God not good enough and all knowing enough to USE our choices for His good will? Does He have to force one to believe or not in order to show His Glory? Does God not want us to love Him on on our own, does He HAVE to force someone into it. That is not the God of the Bible I know. Since He knows the end from the beginning, everything in "time" has already happened. He knew already who would "Choose this day whom you will serve" Sure sounds like a "choice" there. There are myriad scriptures proving free will to choose. God turns all bad into good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...and what is His purpose? He "wishes" that none should perish, yet, many will because they did not CHOOSE life.
How can you say that Jesus shed blood on the cross covers only an elite few?
How do you interpret this scripture: 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." ? It seems very clear that He died for ALL people.

 

[Dave L]

However, He's not going to forcibly do this against the will of those who are obstinate, otherwise Israel wouldn't have rebelled 100000x in the OT.



You may choose this or free will; you cant have both.



I'll admit that string of verses does appear to support your doctrine.



Why did Paul bother preaching to these people in Acts 4 if they were just going to blow him off? Why would Paul ask "why do you always resist the Spirit?" wouldn't Paul be fully aware that they resist because God hasn't called them? I think we can both agree that being rhetorical with these people would be pointless endeavor on his part. 1 Corinthians 1:22-23

Every choice we freely make is based on the reason God used to control us.

 

[friend of]

Every choice we freely make is based on the reason God used to control us.

How is this then compatible with free will?

 

[Dave L]

Dave,
Is our God not good enough and all knowing enough to USE our choices for His good will? Does He have to force one to believe or not in order to show His Glory? Does God not want us to love Him on on our own, does He HAVE to force someone into it. That is not the God of the Bible I know. Since He knows the end from the beginning, everything in "time" has already happened. He knew already who would "Choose this day whom you will serve" Sure sounds like a "choice" there. There are myriad scriptures proving free will to choose. God turns all bad into good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...and what is His purpose? He "wishes" that none should perish, yet, many will because they did not CHOOSE life.
How can you say that Jesus shed blood on the cross covers only an elite few?
How do you interpret this scripture: 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." ? It seems very clear that He died for ALL people.

We only respond to the reasons we base our choices on. God created them along with us as part of his plan for us.

 

[Dave L]

How is this then compatible with free will?

We freely choose what we want based on the reasons God uses to control our choices.

 

[Nancy]

We only respond to the reasons we base our choices on. God created them along with us as part of his plan for us.

So, how do you interpret 1 John 2:2?

 

[Dave L]

So, how do you interpret 1 John 2:2?

"Whole world" to a first century Jew = gentiles and not just Jews.

 

[Nancy]

"Whole world" to a first century Jew = gentiles and not just Jews.

Um, okay but...I never mentioned Jews but ALL people and that only includes Jews AND gentiles = ALL people.

 

[Dave L]

Um, okay but...I never mentioned Jews but ALL people and that only includes Jews AND gentiles = ALL people.

Salvation was only of the Jews. That's why the NT writers stress whole world in fulfillment of Abraham's promise that the gentiles would be heirs of salvation.

 

[friend of]

Does He have to force one to believe or not in order to show His Glory? Does God not want us to love Him on on our own, does He HAVE to force someone into it.

This^^^

 

[bbyrd009]

BTW, I think Red Sea chariot wheels are legit...and since archeologists are bankrolled so often by those who’d prefer the Bible be disproven, we’ve got to be doubly cautious.

i read Reed Sea anyway, a diff place

and I wouldn't try to deny the possibility of a literal Exodus even now, but I have found perspectives that seem to fit better, I would say. The Exodus was real, but it was an Exodus from a School of Thought imo, a spiritual Exodus

 

[Mjh29]

Why did Paul bother preaching to these people in Acts 4 if they were just going to blow him off? Why would Paul ask "why do you always resist the Spirit?" wouldn't Paul be fully aware that they resist because God hasn't called them? I think we can both agree that being rhetorical with these people would be pointless endeavor on his part. 1 Corinthians 1:22-23

An endevour is never pointless if commanded by God, no matter how it appears to man. Perhaps there were some in the crowd that would be changed by God, we do not know. But my question is: Do these people seem like the kind of people who could be saved by resistable grace?

 

[Nancy]

Salvation was only of the Jews. That's why the NT writers stress whole world in fulfillment of Abraham's promise that the gentiles would be heirs of salvation.

I am not quite following you here Dave.

 

[Dave L]

I am not quite following you here Dave.

“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22)

One had to become a Jew through circumcision to be in a position for salvation under the Mosaic covenant. Also under the Abrahamic covenant. (women/girls were considered circumcised through their circumcised fathers or husbands). But the promise to Abraham included gentiles after Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. So all believers are saved no matter their ethnicity. In this case "world" and "all men" = gentiles, not just Jews.