The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[marks]

Your posts suggest God is not holy and just.
Your posts attempt to blame God for man's sin.
Your posts error because you attempt to replace scripture with your carnal thoughts
Those who like your posts do the same thing.

In no wise do I say God is not just or holy. But your pov and mine ascribe to God different types of holiness. Your view of God has Him making people for the purpose that they should live forever in pain. I see God as wanting those who will want Him.

I do not blame God for man's sin. I believe that man chooses to sin, and that God gives man choices, and holds him accountable for his choices.

I realize you consider my thoughts carnal and your thoughts spiritual. C'est la vie.

Much love!

 

[marks]

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)

To the ones who received Jesus, to those God gave the right to become the sons of God.

Receiving the right "to become" the son of God must necessarily preceed "becoming" a son of God, would it not?

Do those who do not have the right to become a son of God become a son so that they can receive that right to become a son of God?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

We learn to love Him more and more; as we get to know Him on a deeper level. His characteristics, His ways that are oh so much higher than ours.
In Him,
nancy

Amen!

 

[marks]

They cannot turn to God in a saving way apart from faith which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You confuse the national repentance of the wicked with with salvation and they were two different things altogether.

Actually, I only provided the context to the passage you gave. In reality, the covenant you are quoting from was between God and the Israelites at Sinai.

And you skipped answering my question, to which I'd most certainly like an answer.

Do you think I hate God passionately?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The new birth precedes anything they do. No new birth means no receiving Him, no right to become a child of God.

Hi SG,

Did you notice here, you've said that new birth comes before the right to new birth.

Much love!

 

[Dave L]

Actually, I only provided the context to the passage you gave. In reality, the covenant you are quoting from was between God and the Israelites at Sinai.

And you skipped answering my question, to which I'd most certainly like an answer.

Do you think I hate God passionately?

Much love!

You confuse the legal obedience of wicked unbelievers that kept them from calamity. With salvation based on grace alone. And if you hate God as presented by Paul, Augustine and Calvin, you hate the God of Christianity and the bible with a seeming passion.

 

[Dave L]

Hi SG,

Did you notice here, you've said that new birth comes before the right to new birth.

Much love!

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)

 

[Nancy]

Here's what it says; “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)

To "receive" is to be presented with...will anyone refuse His gift? Yes...tons of people will.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Of course it all begins and ends with God. And, with simplicity that I am, lol...I read His word in the simplest terms and, I see every where in the NT an invitation to agree with God that yes, we are sinners and hopeless without Him and His free gift...

 

[Dave L]

To "receive" is to be presented with...will anyone refuse His gift? Yes...tons of people will.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Of course it all begins and ends with God. And, with simplicity that I am, lol...I read His word in the simplest terms and, I see every where in the NT an invitation to agree with God that yes, we are sinners and hopeless without Him and His free gift...

If you unexpectedly receive a pat on the back, what did you have to do with it?

 

[marks]

You confuse the legal obedience of wicked unbelievers that kept them from calamity. With salvation based on grace alone. And if you hate God as presented by Paul, Augustine and Calvin, you hate the God of Christianity and the bible with a seeming passion.

Man! How many times need I say . . . you brought this passage up, I simply set it into context.

And that is the context. A covenant made with Someone Else. And yes, good description, legal obedience to keep the Israelites from going off the deep end into sin, and therefore causing their complete destruction.

But to my request . . . Thank you!

Because I do not hate God as presented by Paul.

And I do not believe such things as so many say, that God makes people for sin and pain, and others for love and joy. So I am happy to hear that you do not think I hate God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)

and . . . the right to become a child . . . comes before . . . becoming a child.

You cannot become what you are. If you are a child of God, then saying that you receive the right to become a child of God is simply nonsensical.

Much love!

 

[Dave L]

Man! How many times need I say . . . you brought this passage up, I simply set it into context.

And that is the context. A covenant made with Someone Else. And yes, good description, legal obedience to keep the Israelites from going off the deep end into sin, and therefore causing their complete destruction.

But to my request . . . Thank you!

Because I do not hate God as presented by Paul.

And I do not believe such things as so many say, that God makes people for sin and pain, and others for love and joy. So I am happy to hear that you do not think I hate God.

Much love!

If Calvin was right about God, you and others on this board hate him with a passion.

 

[Nancy]

If you unexpectedly receive a pat on the back, what did you have to do with it?

Not a single thing. And, neither can WE do a single thing to earn salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Not a single thing. And, neither can WE do a single thing to earn salvation.

But you say the passage teaches free will when John says salvation is not of free will.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Not a single thing. And, neither can WE do a single thing to earn salvation.

You undo your above "Statement of Faith" once you begin preaching your "gospel" of "freewill." It's not unusual though, many have a "Statement of Faith" and undo what it says once they begin teaching what they believe, including entire churches.

You need to read Scripture more closely and get some godly preachers to help you understand the true Gospel.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Some on here think they need to try to get God off the hook for his electing grace given to whose whom he chose by trying to blame it on man not doing something: choosing.

Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 slow, and carefully, for days if you need to. Months even. Nothing in there about you choosing. Read Matthew 11:25-30. Read it and weep. Nothing in there about God revealing himself to everyone, or the Son doing so either. But it does show he does this to whom he wills, THEN he calls them to take his yoke upon them, and ONLY them.

This trying to say you had nothing to do with salvation is contrary to what you actually teach. Sorry, that's a logical fallacy and a false dichotomy. You didn't choose God (if you're converted). He chose you.

God isn't on any hook for saving and choosing to save any whom he wills, and it isn't every single person ever that he wills to save. If it were, all would then be saved.

Instead of doing this trick to get God off the hook in your own minds because you deem this and HIM unfair, you all ought to open your Bibles and tremble before God for this fact.

He can, and does, exercise justice on whom he wills at his will. He exercises mercy on whom he wills, at his will and purpose.

NO ONE chooses themselves into heaven by their will or determination. Stop robbing God of his glory and trying to domesticate him, and get him off some proverbial hook because you think it, and he has to be "fair" in your own mind.

 

[Nancy]

But you say the passage teaches free will when John says salvation is not of free will.

I do not see that at all. I see many scriptures but, what right now sticks out to me is “But as many as received him gave He..."!

 

[Dave L]

I do not see that at all. I see many scriptures but, what right now sticks out to me is “But as many as received him gave He..."!

I received a letter the other day. And had something I never had before.

 

[marks]

If Calvin was right about God, you and others on this board hate him with a passion.

So . . . is this what you think?

Be bold.

 

[marks]

Some on here think they need to try to get God off the hook for his electing grace given to whose whom he chose by trying to blame it on man not doing something: choosing.

Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 slow, and carefully, for days if you need to. Months even. Nothing in there about you choosing. Read Matthew 11:25-30. Read it and weep. Nothing in there about God revealing himself to everyone, or the Son doing so either. But it does show he does this to whom he wills, THEN he calls them to take his yoke upon them, and ONLY them.

This trying to say you had nothing to do with salvation is contrary to what you actually teach. Sorry, that's a logical fallacy and a false dichotomy. You didn't choose God (if you're converted). He chose you.

God isn't on any hook for saving and choosing to save any whom he wills, and it isn't every single person ever that he wills to save. If it were, all would then be saved.

Instead of doing this trick to get God off the hook in your own minds because you deem this and HIM unfair, you all ought to open your Bibles and tremble before God for this fact.

He can, and does, exercise justice on whom he wills at his will. He exercises mercy on whom he wills, at his will and purpose.

NO ONE chooses themselves into heaven by their will or determination. Stop robbing God of his glory and trying to domesticate him, and get him off some proverbial hook because you think it, and he has to be "fair" in your own mind.

So this is cherry picking. You can't find it in this verse, and you can't find it in that verse, so it doesn't exist.

Not so, since this message is in many places. But just the same, as this debate once again reveals, some will not stay to the meanings of the words, and want to redefine them according to their doctrine.

Much love!