Renouncing My Faith

[Enoch111]

So then do you feel that our faith may be renounced?

Did I even hint or suggest such NONSENSE?

I showed you the Scriptures which tells us how saving faith is generated in unbelievers by the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit (and all of which you were not able to connect). And those who are saved are kept by THE POWER OF GOD. Furthermore, faith is a FRUIT of the spirit, as well as a gift of the Spirit AFTER salvation.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi Stumpmaster,

I'm of the mind that only the seed in the good ground brings salvation.

Much love!

Absolutely, marks, and many are the tests of faith that await the babes in Christ to bring them to maturity.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Pe 1:3-7
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you,
(5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(6) Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
(7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[Renniks]

The only way this could be possible is if this faith is something you generate.

But you and I know that faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, generated fromGod.

I wonder why there are a multitude of warnings about falling away from the faith, then?

 

[Waiting on him]

I wonder why there are a multitude of warnings about falling away from the faith, then?

Ok, feel free to post the multitude and we’ll address it.

 

[marks]

Did I even hint or suggest such NONSENSE?

Nope!

:)

Just another 'back to topic' effort . . .

Furthermore, faith is a FRUIT of the spirit, as well as a gift of the Spirit AFTER salvation.

Excellent!

:)

 

[marks]

Ok, feel free to post the multitude and we’ll address it.

One by one, as needed.

:)

 

[bbyrd009]

still not bothering with all that manna jazz huh
ok

 

[Renniks]

One by one, as needed.

:)

I've heard it all before, usually from the Calvinists. Doesn't matter, I still can't read the falling away passages as something else. Just the fact that Jesus says to remain in him mean we can choose not to, to any logical person.

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"
"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."

"then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

"you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."

"brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Wait, you can save someone's soul by bringing them back to God? Nevermind, the OSAS will find a way to wiggle around the obvious meaning.

 

[marks]

I've heard it all before, usually from the Calvinists.

To be clear . . . I'm not Calvinist.

 

[FollowHim]

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

While we are saved through faith, salvation is not found in faith itself.

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"

Faith brings us to Jesus. In Jesus Christ we receive every spiritual blessing.

Our salvation is immersing into Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;"

Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

By faith this becomes possible, but rebirth is from God. In Christ we are a new creation, made free from sin.

And by then it's too late to talk about renouncing your faith.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What keeps us is not our faith, we are kept by the power of God. This does not say we are kept by faith in God's power. We are kept by God's power, which works in our faith.

His keeping power is such that it is "unto salvation", not unto the great question. He keeps us by His power through faith unto salvation.

Galatians 2
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Kept by the power of God through faith . . . whose faith?

It's Jesus' faith!

Much love!

What is your faith and what is Jesus's faith?
One can get caught in semantics. The faith that dwells in us is very real.

I live by faith in the Son of God
Gal 2:20

Faith in Christ, the revelation He is the Messiah, the Christ, is a gift from God.
But it is our faith, that keeps us in Christ.

Your description could easily be interpreted that if we fall away it is Gods fault, and He alone has responsibility to keep us in Him.
Peter when told he would deny Jesus, Jesus told him when he came back to encourage the brothers.

31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
Luke 22:31-32

We are in a free will relationship with Jesus and He calls us onward, Amen.

 

[marks]

What is your faith and what is Jesus's faith?
One can get caught in semantics. The faith that dwells in us is very real.

I live by faith in the Son of God
Gal 2:20

Faith in Christ, the revelation He is the Messiah, the Christ, is a gift from God.
But it is our faith, that keeps us in Christ.

Your description could easily be interpreted that if we fall away it is Gods fault, and He alone has responsibility to keep us in Him.
Peter when told he would deny Jesus, Jesus told him when he came back to encourage the brothers.

31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
Luke 22:31-32

We are in a free will relationship with Jesus and He calls us onward, Amen.

His faith, and our faith, to me, the lines get blurry.

It's like in Romans 8 . . .

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit, by which we cry . . . my spirit and God's spirit bearing witness together, we are His children. Where does His Spirit end and mine begin? I find I can't tell.

I think it's the same with faith. God has given to each a measure of faith. We mix that faith with His Word, and live. We believe, with the faith from Him.

31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you (Plural 'you') as wheat.
32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your (singular 'your') faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
Luke 22:31-32

Jesus warns Simon that Satan has asked to sift as wheat all the disciples. Jesus assures Simon that He has prayed that Simon's faith not fail. And in faith that this will be so, His prayer answered, Jesus tells Simon, when you've returned, strengthen the others.

Peter couldn't stand the idea, I think, of following Jesus to crucifixion, at least, not yet. But even the misery of denying his Lord out of whatever state he was in that would bring him to do that, Peter did not stop believing in Jesus, at least, not so far as I can tell.

Jesus prayed that Peter's faith not fail, and Peter went the distance.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

One among us, unknown, until they go out. These didn't go the distance. Because they were never true.

Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

This is about going the distance. IF we hold our faith to the end. If we do, we are 'made partakers' of Christ, which is a perfect tense, showing something that was done, and remains done. Like a bell. You cast a bell, hang it with a clapper, but no one has rang it yet. You walk over, swing the clapper, Bing! Now this is a "rung bell". It will always be a rung bell, it never goes back to being "unrung".

Paul uses the same tense when he says, Have I not seen the risen Christ? He is one who has seen the risen Christ, and forever that remains true.

IF we hold our confidence to the end, we have become partakers of Christ, in this same way. It was done, remains done, we will evermore be partakers of Christ. If it's real, it lasts.

I don't hold God responsible for the one who professes faith one day, and another day professes something else.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

While we are saved through faith, salvation is not found in faith itself.

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"

Faith brings us to Jesus. In Jesus Christ we receive every spiritual blessing.

Our salvation is immersing into Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;"

Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

By faith this becomes possible, but rebirth is from God. In Christ we are a new creation, made free from sin.

And by then it's too late to talk about renouncing your faith.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What keeps us is not our faith, we are kept by the power of God. This does not say we are kept by faith in God's power. We are kept by God's power, which works in our faith.

His keeping power is such that it is "unto salvation", not unto the great question. He keeps us by His power through faith unto salvation.

Galatians 2
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Kept by the power of God through faith . . . whose faith?

It's Jesus' faith!

Much love!

Maybe “renouncing my faith” which is dead with dead works...for living Faith which comes down from God above and is alive unto God. (Born and conceived of Him)
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

does God ask us to have faith in us and our ability ...or Faith in Him and His ability to do the impossible.

It is not Christ who has faith in Himself, since He is God. It is the sinner who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and is saved (Acts 16:30,31).

Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

consider “Faith”...does God have Faith in Himself...One who said Nothing is impossible for God. Nothing. That is bold. Not like men say it and it falls through...but God saying “nothing is impossible” who does not lie. Then contrasted with God saying it is impossible with men. Where is God’s Faith then in Himself or in what men can do?

Abraham didn’t even know what he was doing by binding his son Isaac and laying him on the Altar. Abraham believed God would do what He said He would do. Was Abraham’s faith in what men can do or in God?

 

[marks]

Maybe “renouncing my faith” which is dead with dead works...for living Faith which comes down from God above and is alive unto God.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

does God ask us to have faith in us and our ability ...or Faith in Him and His ability to do the impossible.



Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

consider “Faith”...does God have Faith in Himself...One who said Nothing is impossible for God. Nothing. That is bold. Not like men say it and it falls through...but God saying “nothing is impossible” who does not lie. Then contrasted with God saying it is impossible with men. Where is God’s Faith then in Himself or in what men can do?

Abraham didn’t even know what he was doing by binding his son Isaac and laying him on the Altar. Abraham believed God would do what He said He would do. Was Abraham’s faith in what men can do or in God?

Hi ViJ,

Can we say God has faith when He knows? We hope for what we don't yet see, so our walk is by faith and not by sight. God knows all things.

Romans 4 YLT
18 Who, against hope in hope did believe, for his becoming father of many nations according to that spoken: `So shall thy seed be;'
19 and not having been weak in the faith, he did not consider his own body, already become dead, (being about a hundred years old,) and the deadness of Sarah's womb,
20 and at the promise of God did not stagger in unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, having given glory to God,
21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:
22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.

I chose Young's Literal Translation for this quote as he shows the tense of "was strengthened in faith". This is passive voice, it was done to him. Abraham didn't strengthen his own faith, he was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, the One strengthening him.

Dead faith in dead works is the perfect faith to renounce!

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

To be clear . . . I'm not Calvinist.

Then I'm even more perplexed how you can reach the OSAS conclusion. For the Calvinist, it's a logical part of what I call a "closed system", that is, if you believe A., B naturally follows. But, if you don't believe for example, that regeneration precedes faith, and God is doing everything, why would you believe that losing faith would not result in losing salvation?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Can we say God has faith when He knows? We hope for what we don't yet see, so our walk is by faith and not by sight. God knows all things.

it is a good question. I don’t know other than what He said remains? 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Same as “longsuffering” 2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

I’ve always struggled with why is God “long suffering” already knowing the ending. 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

again, it is a good question about faith ...

 

[marks]

I’ve always struggled with why is God “long suffering” already knowing the ending.

He can be patient with us knowing that we are His children. "They will be mine, when I take up my jewels".

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Can we say God has faith when He knows? We hope for what we don't yet see, so our walk is by faith and not by sight. God knows all things.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. [3] For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

He had to have seen the joy to be revealed...which endured such contradiction of sinners against himself. Faith being the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:26-27 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

“the evidence of things not seen” ...Faith being evidence ...Hope Being substance...of him who is invisible? Not faith or hope in all the names cut off but in His Name revealed alone. so I don’t know...does God have or lack Faith in His Name which is above all ...

 

[Nancy]

Then I'm even more perplexed how you can reach the OSAS conclusion. For the Calvinist, it's a logical part of what I call a "closed system", that is, if you believe A., B naturally follows. But, if you don't believe for example, that regeneration precedes faith, and God is doing everything, why would you believe that losing faith would not result in losing salvation?

OSAS or as Calvinists put it "Perseverance of the saints" is not only a Calvinistic doctrine. There are many opinions as to what the scriptures say, and mean. We can come up with scriptures that fit both views.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

He can be patient with us knowing that we are His children. "They will be mine, when I take up my jewels".

Much love!

do get your point. So I’m not arguing it. Signing off. Was Only meditating on God who boldly says He can do the impossible and nothing is impossible for Him. That is all but to me it is major in Whom or Who can endure?
Psalm 12:3-6 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord ; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. [6] The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Revelation 1:13-15 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

“...his feet ...as if they burned in the furnace.” But He knows The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

 

[Renniks]

OSAS or as Calvinists put it "Perseverance of the saints" is not only a Calvinistic doctrine. There are many opinions as to what the scriptures say, and mean. We can come up with scriptures that fit both views.

I know it's not only a Calvinist doctrine, but it only makes sense in a system where free will is absent.