Is BAPTISM MANDATORY for SALVATION...

[OzSpen]

....but SALVATION IS ALSO CONDITIONAL. (Paul speaks of salvation.).

Now you have to understand that this has always been a DEVISIVE TOPIC, and always will be.

My title of this thread and my explaination here are my HEART FELT beliefs from scriptures, but not meant to be forced on anyone here.
You all have the right to your own beliefs, and I'm just sharing mine as another choice you may consider after reading my post.

I am not a "GLADIATOR coming here to the "COLISEUM of Christian WARFARE.
I don't fight - I DISCUSS.
Thank you God!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42 years ago when I gave my life to Christ, Christianity was much different than today.
Romans 14"22 Says, "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.
Happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he approves".

Some of what was believed at the time when I was Born Again 42 years ago, I still hold as true, while there are many other teachings, I have discovered through my studies and prayer life, and leading of the Holy Spirit, I found that there are false teachings of major bible doctrine at every church I have ever attended.

I have spent 42 years not only reading, studying, and researching the bible, but I have studied the history of the bible and church history from the beginning.

I am 76 years old and have had 17 years of retirement, and have spent thousands of hours in my studies, so I feel confident that I am at least right for myself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me "Believing" is not a point of salvation, but is a beginning point where we are lead to a conditional state of being saved, where the process of salvation begins, when at our time of baptism before we are baptized, we confess our faith in Christ by proclaiming "WE BELIVE in Christ as our Savior, and we repent of our sins and ask God for forgiveness of our past sinful life, Acts 2:38 and once we are "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST" Romans 6:3, and are forgiven of our sins Acts 2:38, and receive the "GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT Acts 2;38.
When studied out in the original Greek language , the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT is conditional, as told to us in 2nd Corinthians 1:21-22,'Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, is God:
22)Who has "SEALED (arrabon or sphragizo) us (A temporary or conditional mark of ownership that we can give up in rebellion) and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a "PLEDGE" or"EARNEST" (arrabon or sphragizo Down payment ,temporary guarantee, deposit earnest agreement as in buying a house, that we must fulfill).
Same as 2nd Cor, 5:5 says, "Now he who prepared us for the very purpose of eternal life(See verse 4) is God, who Gave to us the SPIRIT as a PLEDGE.
Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God who you were sealed by (sphragizo or arrabon) unto the day of redemption.

So as 2nd Cor. 5:17 says, "if any man IS IN CHRIST (You have to be in CHRIST) he is a new creation. "

How do you get into Christ??
Back to Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all who have been "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"...have been BAPTIZED into His death.

6:5) "For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death (Through baptism), certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection .
5:11) "...so consider yourself to be dead to sin, but alive to God "IN CHRIST"

Again, how do you get into Christ? - Romans 6:3 "YOU ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"!!

Romans 8:1," There is therefore no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS."

Again, how do you get into Christ Jesus - Romans 6:3 , "YOU ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"

Romans 8:9, "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to God."

Again, How do we get the Spirit of Christ? - Acts 3:38, "We are baptized and receive the GIFT of the Holy spirit.

We can be freed from sin - in BAPTISM - Romans6:7,"...for he who has been BAPTIZED is FREED FROM SIN."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same and there is only one way to receive either - that's through BAPTISM

So is baptism MANDATORY?
You can ask for forgiveness of your past sins - BAPTISM
You can be forgiven - BAPTISM
You can repent of your sins - BAPTISM
You can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - BAPTISM
You can be in Christ - BAPTISM
You can be freed from sin - BAPTISM
Romans 6:7,"For he who has been BAPTIZED is freed from sin."
You can receive an earnest or down payment on eternal life. - BAPTISM.

Where else in the bible do you get all this in one act of obeying God about our starting place and foundation for being saved and salvation????

Salvation is also conditional on observing the Sabbath
Salvation is also conditional on obeying the 10 Commandments
Another day!!

There is so much more, but I'm close to writing a small book.
God bless you all
My name is OLIGOS

SeasonedbyGrace,

So is baptism necessary for salvation?

Oz

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

SeasonedbyGrace,

So is baptism necessary for salvation?

Oz

YES-WATER BAPTISM, for a DOWNPAYMENT on your ongoing process of salvation.

This is a physical baptism in water where you confess Christ as your savior, receive forgiveness of your sins, and the endwelling of the Holy Spirit, and God becomes a personal part of your life to help you and guide you through the bible and just through your daily life.


Not baptism in the Spirit as that disappeared a long times ago

OzSpen my friend.
it was nice to have you here and ask questions.
Anything else you need to know, just ask and I'll try to help you out.

God bless you as you spend some time here, and may God bless you.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[OzSpen]

YES-WATER BAPTISM, for a DOWNPAYMENT on your ongoing process of salvation.

This is a physical baptism in water where you confess Christ as your savior, receive forgiveness of your sins, and the endwelling of the Holy Spirit, and God becomes a personal part of your life to help you and guide you through the bible and just through your daily life.


Not baptism in the Spirit as that disappeared a long times ago

OzSpen my friend.
it was nice to have you here and ask questions.
Anything else you need to know, just ask and I'll try to help you out.

God bless you as you spend some time here, and may God bless you.
My name is OLIGOS

Seasoned by Grace,

You gave no Scripture hear to support your position.

So, was the thief on the cross - who wasn't baptised - saved or damned?

Oz

 

[Candidus]

Acts 8:37-38,
As Philip and the eunuch traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of me being baptized.37-38) And the eunuch gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went DOWN INTO THE WATER, and Philip BAPTIZED HIM.

Acts 10:47-48, "Surely, no one can refuse the WATER for these to be BAPTIZED who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he? And he ordered them to be BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ.

I hope this helps you, and may you be blessed.
My name is OLIGOS

So, by evading the passage in question, you jump to another. I will take it that there is no immersion to be found in that passage.

Acts 10:47-48 says nothing about immersion either. I have stepped into (eis) many a puddle, and have stepped from out of (ek) the same puddle, and with shoes on I never got wet. Without shoes I may never has gotten my ankles wet. They were traveling in a desert, and it was a surprise to find water (8:36), how much water is unknown. If going into and out of the water is immersion, then who baptized who? Are you "baptized" if the preacher is not immersed along with you? For BOTH went into the water, and BOTH came out. If (eis) and (ek) are immersion, then you are saying that they both went in under their heads, performed a water ballet of baptizing in Jesus Name, and then returned to the shore. The act of going in and out of the water indicates nothing in the way of immersion. The Baptism in the passage is distinct from going in and out from the water. One can imply that because they were "in the water, that there was sufficient water to immerse, and because they came "out of" the water, they were immersed, is purely assumptive. Going in and out of water is not baptism, as the passage tells us.

Acts 10:47-48 speaks of not refusing water for the purpose of baptism. It sounds like the water is coming to the person to be baptized in this instance; not an immersion. This is in light of them having "received the Holy Spirit" (Salvation has occurred). The symbolism would reflect the substance, right??

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Seasoned by Grace,

You gave no Scripture hear to support your position.

So, was the thief on the cross - who wasn't baptised - saved or damned?

Oz

What verse definitively states the thief had never been baptized? Why could he not have been among all those of Mark 1:5 baptized of John?

 

[Truther]

....but SALVATION IS ALSO CONDITIONAL. (Paul speaks of salvation.).

Now you have to understand that this has always been a DEVISIVE TOPIC, and always will be.

My title of this thread and my explaination here are my HEART FELT beliefs from scriptures, but not meant to be forced on anyone here.
You all have the right to your own beliefs, and I'm just sharing mine as another choice you may consider after reading my post.

I am not a "GLADIATOR coming here to the "COLISEUM of Christian WARFARE.
I don't fight - I DISCUSS.
Thank you God!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42 years ago when I gave my life to Christ, Christianity was much different than today.
Romans 14"22 Says, "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.
Happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he approves".

Some of what was believed at the time when I was Born Again 42 years ago, I still hold as true, while there are many other teachings, I have discovered through my studies and prayer life, and leading of the Holy Spirit, I found that there are false teachings of major bible doctrine at every church I have ever attended.

I have spent 42 years not only reading, studying, and researching the bible, but I have studied the history of the bible and church history from the beginning.

I am 76 years old and have had 17 years of retirement, and have spent thousands of hours in my studies, so I feel confident that I am at least right for myself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me "Believing" is not a point of salvation, but is a beginning point where we are lead to a conditional state of being saved, where the process of salvation begins, when at our time of baptism before we are baptized, we confess our faith in Christ by proclaiming "WE BELIVE in Christ as our Savior, and we repent of our sins and ask God for forgiveness of our past sinful life, Acts 2:38 and once we are "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST" Romans 6:3, and are forgiven of our sins Acts 2:38, and receive the "GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT Acts 2;38.
When studied out in the original Greek language , the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT is conditional, as told to us in 2nd Corinthians 1:21-22,'Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, is God:
22)Who has "SEALED (arrabon or sphragizo) us (A temporary or conditional mark of ownership that we can give up in rebellion) and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a "PLEDGE" or"EARNEST" (arrabon or sphragizo Down payment ,temporary guarantee, deposit earnest agreement as in buying a house, that we must fulfill).
Same as 2nd Cor, 5:5 says, "Now he who prepared us for the very purpose of eternal life(See verse 4) is God, who Gave to us the SPIRIT as a PLEDGE.
Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God who you were sealed by (sphragizo or arrabon) unto the day of redemption.

So as 2nd Cor. 5:17 says, "if any man IS IN CHRIST (You have to be in CHRIST) he is a new creation. "

How do you get into Christ??
Back to Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all who have been "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"...have been BAPTIZED into His death.

6:5) "For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death (Through baptism), certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection .
5:11) "...so consider yourself to be dead to sin, but alive to God "IN CHRIST"

Again, how do you get into Christ? - Romans 6:3 "YOU ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"!!

Romans 8:1," There is therefore no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS."

Again, how do you get into Christ Jesus - Romans 6:3 , "YOU ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"

Romans 8:9, "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to God."

Again, How do we get the Spirit of Christ? - Acts 3:38, "We are baptized and receive the GIFT of the Holy spirit.

We can be freed from sin - in BAPTISM - Romans6:7,"...for he who has been BAPTIZED is FREED FROM SIN."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same and there is only one way to receive either - that's through BAPTISM

So is baptism MANDATORY?
You can ask for forgiveness of your past sins - BAPTISM
You can be forgiven - BAPTISM
You can repent of your sins - BAPTISM
You can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - BAPTISM
You can be in Christ - BAPTISM
You can be freed from sin - BAPTISM
Romans 6:7,"For he who has been BAPTIZED is freed from sin."
You can receive an earnest or down payment on eternal life. - BAPTISM.

Where else in the bible do you get all this in one act of obeying God about our starting place and foundation for being saved and salvation????

Salvation is also conditional on observing the Sabbath
Salvation is also conditional on obeying the 10 Commandments
Another day!!

There is so much more, but I'm close to writing a small book.
God bless you all
My name is OLIGOS

I too believe water baptism per Acts 2:38 is to be saved, but keeping the sabbath is not.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As far as "water" baptism goes, I personally do not believe it is a salvific issue.

"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Acts 10:47.
It seems these folks are already saved and have His Spirit living in them...so, seeing as they were not yet "water" baptized had nothing to do with their salvation. Peter then says that nothing should prevent them from celebrating with water baptism.
It seems that in Acts 10, Spiritual birth came first and the outward confession of Christ through water baptism came second. Not to mention the thief on the cross...
At my local body, when we baptize, before being put under the water, the baptizer will ask for a public confession of Christ, tell them that "you were buried in Christ...dunks...then when they come p from the water the baptizer continues by saying "...and raised into newness of Life with Christ. So, I see this as a "confessing with your mouth" in front of witnesses.
Yes, Peter does say that "...baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (water baptism)...but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Christ." 1 Peter 3:21. So yes there is a "type" of baptism that saves and it isn't water IMHO.
" And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38. The Greek for "for" here does not always mean "to obtain"...it is also used for "as a result of", "or because of". It seems that Peter was urging them to repent, believe the truth of the Gospel and to be baptized in water because of the forgiveness through Christ, so freely given. And, we know that being dunked in water does not mean one is baptized in His Spirit.

Very good! Ephesians 5 has an interesting verse too - He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.

Also, Jesus told the disciples, you are already clean because of the words I have spoken to you.

 

[Bobby Jo]

What verse definitively states the thief had never been baptized? Why could he not have been among all those of Mark 1:5 baptized of John?

Don't ja just LOVE people who make up excuses out of their own imagination for circumstances which contradict their "theology"?

THE THIEF WAS NEVER BAPTIZED. But if he had been "baptized" he obviously wouldn't have been hanging on a cross next to Jesus, because OBVIOUSLY baptism prevents us from sinning, and even if we do sin, we can say WE WERE BAPTIZED, and we all know that BAPTISM is more important than OBEDIENCE.

-- The difference between RELIGION and RELATION --
Bobby Jo

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not baptism in the Spirit as that disappeared a long times ago

So now all we have is baptism in water and baptism with the Holy Spirit doesn't happen anymore?

 

[Nancy]

What verse definitively states the thief had never been baptized? Why could he not have been among all those of Mark 1:5 baptized of John?

Good point...we really do not know for sure.

 

[mjrhealth]

--The Bible already teaches the necessity of water baptism, hence I added nothing to what is already there.

--obedient works in doing God's will (Matthew 7:21) are necessary in order for one to be saved/enter the kingdom. There is no example under the NT gospel of God saving those who remained in impenitent, rebellious disobedience to His will.

--there is no verse that says we are "spirit baptized" into God's kingdom. Again, Matthew 7:21 it takes DOING the will of God to enter the kingdom and those who submit to baptism are the ones doing the will of God.

No it takes faith,
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

 

[Nancy]

Don't ja just LOVE people who make up excuses out of their own imagination for circumstances which contradict their "theology"?

THE THIEF WAS NEVER BAPTIZED. But if he had been "baptized" he obviously wouldn't have been hanging on a cross next to Jesus, because OBVIOUSLY baptism prevents us from sinning, and even if we do sin, we can say WE WERE BAPTIZED, and we all know that BAPTISM is more important than OBEDIENCE.

-- The difference between RELIGION and RELATION --
Bobby Jo

"THE THIEF WAS NEVER BAPTIZED. But if he had been "baptized" he obviously wouldn't have been hanging on a cross next to Jesus, because OBVIOUSLY baptism prevents us from sinning" <--- Jesus, the sinless, was hanging right next to this man. How do you know the thief had sinned at all? We don't know why the thief was crucified. Maybe he stole some bread to feed his family? Could have happened before he was (or wasn't) baptized? And, we know how unjust the Romans and the Pharisees were...it's all speculation here yet, I tend to believe he was not baptized but then...he could have been with the others in Mark 1:5.

 

[mjrhealth]

I came here to accomplish some good for others. Not so sure I accomplished much of anything so far.

My name is OLIGOS

in this case, is adding another yoke around our necks doing anybody snygood

 

[Bobby Jo]

... How do you know the thief had sinned at all? ...

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”​

?Because the thief said so?


Bobby Jo

 

[Enoch111]

What verse definitively states the thief had never been baptized?

The ones who were baptized by John confessed their sins and repented of them. Obviously those two thieves (malefactors would mean more than mere robbers) did not repent, therefore they were crucified. But after being crucified, one on them repented, and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and was saved, and guaranteed Heaven, and an entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Water baptism saves no one. However, it is essential for each one who is saved. The thief died and did not need to be baptized. But on the day of Pentecost about 3,000 were baptized AFTER they were saved.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

One doesn't know the weight that sin puts on us, after being baptized I felt as light as a feather.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... [baptism] is essential for each one who is saved. ...

It's called for and certainly an acknowledgement of salvation, and I'll risk being in the minority -- because I don't believe it's ESSENTIAL. It's simply a tangible display of a new SPIRITUAL life.

For example, which Scripture availability was limited and various Books were pieced out, if one didn't receive the exhortation of Baptism, I think he/she was still SAVED.

IMO,
Bobby Jo

 

[Nancy]

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”​

?Because the thief said so?


Bobby Jo

I guess i should have said "how do we know it was SIN that put the thief on the cross. If you and or your family is starving...

"Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;"
Proverbs 6:30

 

[mailmandan]

So, was the thief on the cross - who wasn't baptised - saved or damned?

Oz

I often hear water-salvationists argue that the thief on the cross may have been converted, was water baptized, yet the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? (highly unlikely)

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

Others will try to argue that the thief on the cross died under the old covenant and water baptism was not necessary for salvation until the new covenant, yet this argument is also flawed because prior to the new covenant, John the Baptist was preaching a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3) which certain water-salvationists will try to use as proof-texts that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. So people can try and make assumptions beyond what is written in scripture, but what is written is all the evidence I need in regards to the death bed conversion of the thief on the cross without having the opportunity to be water baptized.

 

[Enoch111]

...because I don't believe it's ESSENTIAL.

If baptism were not essential for the believer and had some spiritual depth and significance, it would not be (a) a COMMANDMENT of Christ and (b) a COMMANDMENT of the apostles.

In many instances, it makes a huge difference to people who have failed to be baptized, and then realize that it is indeed a commandment, and proceed with obedience to that.