Open rebellion against God

[Candidus]

And I would strongly suggest that those that do backslide and garden their hearts to the degree where they are finally lost, are is very rare breed. God's grace is powerful... His love and passion for us infinite... His faithfulness constant and personal, so while it is possible for a man to be lost after having known the truth, I don't think it would be inevitable or easily accomplished. It has to be a conscious deliberate decision. That cannot be easy.

Is it hard to come to faith? Is it difficult to deliberately believe? Is it difficult to become a Christian?

If there is a way in to becoming a Christian, logically the way out is similar. If it is easy to become a Christian; it is just as easy to become an unbeliever. God expects a person to see that sin is rebellion against a Holy God, it is an expression of unbelief. Scripture is consistent in telling us that our final salvation is conditioned upon a present tense faith in Jesus Christ. That "faith" assumes that rebellion has stopped, that we have repented (turned away) from those things that separate us from God, and that God will change us and free us from those things that would separate us from Him. If we rebelle and sin, that is anti-faith. While the Bible is optimistic about the continuance of the Believer in the faith, the concept of falling from the faith being somehow "difficult," is wishful thinking.

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." It is not the falling into sin that is ultimately fatal, but the continuance therein. While the "wages of sin" is still death... It is not so much the initial stumbling and falling; but the danger of continuing unrepentant. If you continue, God says that there no longer remains a Sacrifice for sins for you. But if the stumble and fall, they get up, repent, confess their sin and move on in faith. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So what happened to "the wages of sin is death'? Now yes, Jesus took sin upon Himself... But even for those who choose to retain and keep it for themselves? What happened to repentance? Or does repentance mean not turning away from sin anymore so long as you "identify" as Christian?

Are you sinless?

if not, what about your sin? Is you sin forgiven and his not

if so, why is your sin ok but his not?

the wage of sin is death, which means by defenitions everyone here deserves death,

are we better than that person who struggles with a sin? Because we do not struggle with that sin? What about our own besetting sin? Do they not make us just as guilty?

it saddens me when believers think they are ok, because they do not commit certain sins.

 

[marks]

So what happened to "the wages of sin is death'? Now yes, Jesus took sin upon Himself... But even for those who choose to retain and keep it for themselves? What happened to repentance? Or does repentance mean not turning away from sin anymore so long as you "identify" as Christian?

Hi Brakelite,

I think what he's talking about is God's faithfulness to His children that He describes in Hebrews 12, that if we are His sons, He will chasten us, that is, to train us according to how a child is trained, literally.

I've tasted some myself. Chastening is not joyful, but grievous. But without it it we aren't sons.

Nothing 'happened' to repentence. God works in each of us to conform us to Himself, and He does this in many different ways I think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Scripture knows nothing of being a half Born-Again, half-regenerated, half-Christian. Walking around as a powerless, unconverted

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is the walk of the unregenerate. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9.​

Hebrews 12
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.''

If you endure chastening, God deals with you as sons. God chastens us for our profit. What do these things mean to you?

Seriously!

Are you a son whom God chastens? Or not? If yes, Why? If not, Why? How does this passage relate to your life. Or does it?

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

funny to me how preoccupied with sin believers are, even when i was a believer. Isnt that just another way to realize being "under the law?" After all, if there is no complaint (law ref), there is no sin, right?

 

[marks]

Open Rebellion . . .

@Not me , good topic, and a lightening rod to certain ones . . . would you say?

I find it pretty interesting, it just seems to me, that the more emphatic a person gets about how real Christians never commit any sins, the more they seem to misrepresent the views of others.

I just read this bit of nonesense acribing the idea that "sins get born again to not be sin", and giving the idea that this is what we believe! @Candidus

I'm astounded not only that this would even be written, that the writer wouldn't know better, but, what, that there is an expectation that this would actually be believed? That this somehow is a reasonable refutation? That this accurately represents the views of others?

And this is to represent the side of sinless righteousness? Saying such things?

I mean, how can someone read for 2 minutes on this or other threads, and think that you, or I, or someone else is saying that.

Is it merely sloppiness? A truly misguided understanding? Or something else. Something intended to tear down and destroy?

Of course I've seen this a lot, being on Christian forums for decades now.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. And somewho those who claim the most righteousness, well, when I read some of these posts, I'm just astounded.

Probably enough reality for the moment.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." It is not the falling into sin that is ultimately fatal, but the continuance therein. While the "wages of sin" is still death... It is not so much the initial stumbling and falling; but the danger of continuing unrepentant. If you continue, God says that there no longer remains a Sacrifice for sins for you. But if the stumble and fall, they get up, repent, confess their sin and move on in faith. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

You don't get to have it both ways.

If you stumble into sin, then you are not a Christian, isn't that what you teach? No sin? Or some sin?

 

[marks]

If there is a way in to becoming a Christian, logically the way out is similar.

Really?

Is there an equally logical way to become unborn as a human?

 

[marks]

God is not obligated to bring a believer back when he sins any more than he is obligated to save him in the first place, but he has promised he will do so. Turning someone over to Satan is not salvation, but a believer who is turned over to Satan does not lose his salvation. First Corinthians 5:5 says, "You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

I think that understanding God's love is not something easily done.

I seems there is this idea that while God made us to have us for His family, that once we became corrupted by sin, now God is using a fine strainer on us so that only the purest of us can get through and be with Him.

When in reality, God has left the flock of holy ones, and gone searching for me, and you, and each of us, sweeping and lighting every corner, searching for His beloved, who in fear hide from Him.

When we can see His love for us, and stop being afraid to come to Him, we can be made new.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

funny to me how preoccupied with sin believers are, even when i was a believer. Isnt that just another way to realize being "under the law?" After all, if there is no complaint (law ref), there is no sin, right?

Maybe that's the problem too many lawyers?

 

[marks]

Appealing to a murderer and rapist in connection of what John writes to justify sin and sinning is clearly not exegesis, or even sound theology.

OK, who exactly is trying to make sin be right?

Seriously! Please. Point to the place where sin is being justified. Made right. Who is saying sin is not sin?

And "appealing to a murder and rapist"? Seems to me that you are attempting to use the most inflammatory languange you can come up with trying to get an emotional momentum to win your argument.

 

[Not me]

Open Rebellion . . .

@Not me , good topic, and a lightening rod to certain ones . . . would you say?

I find it pretty interesting, it just seems to me, that the more emphatic a person gets about how real Christians never commit any sins, the more they seem to misrepresent the views of others.

I just read this bit of nonesense acribing the idea that "sins get born again to not be sin", and giving the idea that this is what we believe! @Candidus

I'm astounded not only that this would even be written, that the writer wouldn't know better, but, what, that there is an expectation that this would actually be believed? That this somehow is a reasonable refutation? That this accurately represents the views of others?

And this is to represent the side of sinless righteousness? Saying such things?

I mean, how can someone read for 2 minutes on this or other threads, and think that you, or I, or someone else is saying that.

Is it merely sloppiness? A truly misguided understanding? Or something else. Something intended to tear down and destroy?

Of course I've seen this a lot, being on Christian forums for decades now.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. And somewho those who claim the most righteousness, well, when I read some of these posts, I'm just astounded.

Probably enough reality for the moment.

Much love!

Thanks marks, as with all truths the Spirit of Christ will bear witness to the truth, if we continue to pursue Him...

Be blessed in the pursuing, a brother in the faith, Not me

 

[Candidus]

OK, who exactly is trying to make sin be right?

Seriously! Please. Point to the place where sin is being justified. Made right. Who is saying sin is not sin?

And "appealing to a murder and rapist"? Seems to me that you are attempting to use the most inflammatory languange you can come up with trying to get an emotional momentum to win your argument.

Every child of God is fully born again and regenerated, but while on this earth he still has his old nature, so he can still sin; he just can't continue to live in sin the way an unsaved person can. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and tried to cover up his sin by having her husband murdered but his conscience bothered him and when Nathan pointed out his sin he repented.

You are correct, I meant "murder and adultery." "Appealing to murder and adultery" to be the actions of saved and redeemed man, is an argument for sin, not against it. This is to make the Bible agree with the devil! But I do not have to be inflammatory... I have already won the argument with Scripture.

I'm sorry if fighting for the truth makes you so emotional.

 

[Candidus]

Really?

Is there an equally logical way to become unborn as a human?

I suppose when you need to mail a letter you take your cancelled stamps to the Post Office and have them "un-cancel" them!

A non-existent argument is no argument at all. There is no such thing as "un-born", yet as sure as the Bible is true, it says the wages of sin is death! You are in poor company when you side with the devil, like Adam and Eve did he did in the Garden and saying, "Surely, you shall not die!"

 

[marks]

Every child of God is fully born again and regenerated, but while on this earth he still has his old nature, so he can still sin;

Now I'm confused. Seems to me you've been saying that the one born of God does not commit any sin. So maybe I've misunderstood you?

Just read your post again . . .

Every child of God is fully born again and regenerated, but while on this earth he still has his old nature, so he can still sin; he just can't continue to live in sin the way an unsaved person can. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and tried to cover up his sin by having her husband murdered but his conscience bothered him and when Nathan pointed out his sin he repented.

You are correct, I meant "murder and adultery." "Appealing to murder and adultery" to be the actions of saved and redeemed man, is an argument for sin, not against it. This is to make the Bible agree with the devil! But I do not have to be inflammatory... I have already won the argument with Scripture.

I'm sorry if fighting for the truth makes you so emotional.

You are sorry if I'm getting emotional? Is that what I said? Or is that a twisting of my words to turn the meaning around. It's a twisting of my words.

I guess you don't like it pointed out that you do this. Use inflammatory language, and then twist someone's words to try to hide it?

Won the argument? Hm.

 

[marks]

I suppose when you need to mail a letter you take your cancelled stamps to the Post Office and have them "un-cancel" them!

A non-existent argument is no argument at all. There is no such thing as "un-born", yet as sure as the Bible is true, it says the wages of sin is death! You are in poor company when you side with the devil, like Adam and Eve did he did in the Garden and saying, "Surely, you shall not die!"

That's exactly true. There is no such thing as undoing birth.

Something to consider.

 

[marks]

I suppose when you need to mail a letter you take your cancelled stamps to the Post Office and have them "un-cancel" them!

Why would you suppose such a thing as that?

I suspect you don't suppose such a thing at all, and merely wish to sling ridicule.

 

[Brakelite]

Are you sinless?

,'groan,.'... Here we go...

are we better than that person who struggles with a sin?

If he's struggling, he's going to be alright. But @Not me didn't say the dude was struggling. He said he had hardened his heart... In other words he was resisting the reasons of the Spirit to repent... He was preferring there state of rebellion than the state of communion and peace. God will give him what he wants.

Hi Brakelite,

I think what he's talking about is God's faithfulness to His children that He describes in Hebrews 12, that if we are His sons, He will chasten us, that is, to train us according to how a child is trained, literally.

I've tasted some myself. Chastening is not joyful, but grievous. But without it it we aren't sons.

Nothing 'happened' to repentence. God works in each of us to conform us to Himself, and He does this in many different ways I think.

Much love!

The dude @Not me was talking about was not accepting that chastening, but hardening his heart and resisting it. If he was accepting the chastening as you described there would be no issue. He wasn't. He was continuing in sin... Was enjoying it... Preferring it.

 

[Not me]

,'groan,.'... Here we go...

If he's struggling, he's going to be alright. But @Not me didn't say the dude was struggling. He said he had hardened his heart... In other words he was resisting the reasons of the Spirit to repent... He was preferring there state of rebellion than the state of communion and peace. God will give him what he wants.

The dude @Not me was talking about was not accepting that chastening, but hardening his heart and resisting it. If he was accepting the chastening as you described there would be no issue. He wasn't. He was continuing in sin... Was enjoying it... Preferring it.

I think a closer reading of what was written in the OP, will bring forth it was the same thing that scripture does..

That the believer that chose to live in sin, was to be turned over for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved, etc...

If the believer repents, as this one did, he was to be welcomed back, but if not, his spirit was nevertheless to be saved...

That’s not what I say, that’s what
scripture says..

Be blessed in the understanding...

A fellow servant of His, Not me

 

[Brakelite]

, but if not, his spirit was nevertheless to be saved..

And here is where we would disagree. Can you quote scripture for that conclusion?