Fear God or Presume acceptance

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@marks

We are way past my post to you #633. Did you miss it?

Maybe.

:)

 

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I assume he did, seeing as he prophesied that she would join him. If you don't want to assume, that's fine. If God told Peter some things, why not everything.

I make it a point to find and weed out any assumptions I might be making. I want to stick as much as possible to exacty what is written.

I think it's from @Willie T that eloquence is saying all that's needed and nothing more. I like that! And I want to hear from God everything He says, and nothing that He doesn't.

Much love!

 

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I'm talking about any situation in which the power of God was seen through the apostles.

Let me go look again. Maybe it WAS Peter...

Acts 5

 

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He knew the same way Jesus could say, I saw you under the fig tree. He knew because he saw. Because he was in the Spirit.

That Ananias was about to die?

 

[marks]

So how can you say He was teaching them the Law? What He taught on the Mount they couldn't accomplish - yet.

He was teaching them about the Law.

You've heard it said don't murder, but I'll tell you what murder really is. You've heard it said don't commit adultery. But here's what adultery really is. NOW how righteous are you!

But what we don't agree on is the fruit of the Spirit has to develop and grow. What has to be pruned are trespasses, that you don't agree with me on.

What has to be pruned are the intrusions of the flesh. The lapses of our active moment by moment trust, in which we stop looking to Jesus, begin looking to ourselves, act on our own, and whatever results from that, it's sin.

So God allows contrary circumstances into our lives to train us to trust Him for everything as we see Him overcome all things, and as we also see what happens when we aren't willing to endure the trials.

If we take matters into our own hands, maybe we see something more contrary, until we give up on ourselves, release ourselves into His care, and by that constant moment by moment trust in Him, we walk in His Spirit. And then of course we find what we've wanted all along.

Maybe, because you push away the Sermon on the Mount and the Lord's Prayer thinking them to be of the LAW.

Push them away? That's loaded language.

No, I don't push them away, I keep them in their context.

The higher level laws of God is what Jesus taught and are accomplished in the born again Christian.

That higher level of law is Love. Two commandments. Trust Jesus and love others. Everything is comlete in those. And aiming for something else will necessarily be less. Not to say you should break the 10 Commandments, for instance, but if that's your rule of thumb, then its a lessor rule than the rule of love. All the law we need really concern ourselves is with the law of love.

And seriously . . . as we've been freed from sin, why not go on to just concern ourselves with making sure we fulfill love to each other? I can check myself against the Mosaic Covenant Law, but I can easily fool myself that way, thinking, OK, I'm doing this, not doing that, but what about love? And what about letting Jesus be the judge? Because seriously, the standard is an awful lot higher than what can be written down I think.

We are all different, in different circumstances, and in this situation, a certain thing is love, and other things are not, and if I am loving as God intends me to be, then I'm resting in Him, He's working through me, because I'm sacrificing myself, and what I might want to do.

No written code will specify that I write this way or that way. But we all know there are ways to say things to get our little digs in. But real love doesn't even go there.

I'm on borrowed time now, gotta run!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That Ananias was about to die?

Oh, I think I see what you are magnifying down on. You are saying it cannot be known that he knew God would strike ananais dead and can only be known for sure that he knew God would strike Saphira dead?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Training? In what way? I'm not sure I know what you're saying. Explain what you mean by "righteousness that is by faith." Do you mean imputed righteousness like a covering over us, but that we are not actually righteous underneath? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; just I've heard others who mean that.

The righteousness that is by faith is when God deems a man as righteous because he trusts God, believes God. God does not look on trust as filthy rags. We are saved by the kindness of God THROUGH that trust. Otherwise, the apostle would would not have added "through faith."

But men have done hideous things to this. Like...they say they only have to trust they will live forever. They do not think that subsequent disobedience of trust (eg: worrying over money, or a lack of it, which is not trusting what our Lord says when tested) is serious. They say, nope, if God could reject me for any subsequent disobedience of trust, if that is a possibility, then He is going back on His word that He saves men through trust. So...continued and growing trust is not necessary to salvation. So they use the trust to "get saved" but then discard it. It's very lawyerly.

Israel trusted, God saved them when they stepped under the water in trust, then they did not continue in trust. This displeased Him and so they never entered into what was promised. We repeat the same mistake but think that because Jesus died, we wont face that same fate, even if we do the same exact thing they did - not continue in trust. Was trusting God once, in one thing, enough for Israel? No. He became displeased because they didnt continue in trust. But today, men say that same lack of continued trust in us nets a different result. Israel sure did get the wrong end of the stick, huh?

He will annul this "deal to cheat death." It is a falling away from the faith(trust.)

 

[CharismaticLady]

Push them away? That's loaded language.

No, I don't push them away, I keep them in their context.

I mean you believe it is part of the law which doesn't apply to you. That is one reason why you don't accept the lower sin of trespasses.

I'll read the rest tomorrow. This quote is as far as I got. Off to beddy-by.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote.

Where do I speak against obedience to God? I don't think that is where we differ. We both, I think, believe in obeying God. But we do not both believe that our obedience justifies us.

"By one man's obedience the many are justified."

I've hoped for real and honest discussion, however, attributing ridiculous ideas as if they were mine does not advance that. And we can call each other's doctrine "wanky" or whatever all day long, but can't we do better?

I think there is a lot more in common between us then may appear. I'd love to reach the unity.

You dont outright say you are against obedience to God. You say that obedience is not necessary. Do you see trust as an obedience? I know it begins as a gift, a seed. But do you see how trust becomes an obedience? Like ...when you're tempted to sink down into worries, but are learning to stand firm and refuse them.

Amazingly, it even says that Jesus learned the obedience of trust/faith. And Jesus said the one thing God wants from us is that we believe in/trust Himself, the one God sent.

The obedience of trust is, according to the apostle, a race of endurance. We get tired and stumble in it sometimes. We struggle and strive in it and, like the apostle says, we are reaching for the very thing God has grabbed us for and trying to leave all else behind us and to grab (apprehend) the very thing we have been grabbed FOR.

So God is looking for a return on the deposit He has placed. He is looking for it to continue and grow.

So when you say obedience is not necessary, and that subsequent disobedience does not affect your eternal state, it is saying that the trust He saves us by, through His mercy, does not need to continue and grow.

You are so focused on holding onto eternal life that you throw away what God saves us through - trust and the obedience of trust, by saying He does not expect a return on His deposit and will not cut off a man who does not grow in it. This is to bury your talent. It is to risk being cut off and thrown into outer darkness. It is to take the one thing necessary and say it is not necessary. God wants one thing from you and it is what He saves you by, your trust, the obedience of trust, and you have taken that one thing and obliterated it and said it just means trusting you will live forever, at which point, Gods hands are tied now and He cannot go around this loophole men have found, this deal to cheat death. But the entire gospel Jesus preached shows this is not so.

 

[Willie T]

Of course I haven't read all of this humongous thread, but it is still sad to see so many people thinking their Salvation depends upon their own performance.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's so sad that even the trust God saves a man through is now said to not be necessary any longer. At least not past grabbing eternal life for yourself.

 

[Episkopos]

Of course I haven't read all of this humongous thread, but it is still sad to see so many people thinking their Salvation depends upon their own performance.

salvation now is a gift...but we will all be judged by our performance: what we did with what we have been given. Grace is the empowerment to do well so that God can both justify us and even give us a reward....based on what we did with what we have been given.

Otherwise it is up to God to have mercy on whom He wills come judgment day. And for that He will determine a person's worthiness for eternal life based on their works.


So then it is a huge error to think that God gives us something for nothing for all eternity. We are to use the gifts that God gives us today. If we bury our talent we will be rejected by God.

It reminds me of the pagan mind of Constantine., He waited until his deathbed to be baptized as a Christian so he didn't have to do anything or have any fruit...just like the thief on the cross. I think a LOT of modern believers have that same kind of pagan mindset as Constantine. They want the benefits...but without having to bear any kind of good fruit. They hate the idea of having to show a holy performance. So then the modern idea is worse than being like Constantine. At least he didn't seek to change the gospel to suit himself as we now do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not Peter. Paul. And if the righteousness/holiness of God is seen through you, it is Gods righteousness/holiness that is being seen/shown. Paul was...a conduit of Gods righteousness/holiness.

I would think we all would resemble this

It is called letting your light shine through.. The light being Christ

 

[Willie T]

salvation now is a gift...but we will all be judged by our performance. Grace is the empowerment to do well so that God can both justify us and even give us a reward....based on what we did with what we have been given.

Otherwise it is up to God to have mercy on whom He wills come judgment day. And for that He will determine a person's worthiness for eternal life based on their works.


So then it is a huge error to think that God gives us something for nothing for all eternity. We are to use the gifts that God gives us today. If we bury our talent we will be rejected by God.

It reminds me of the pagan mind of Constantine., He waited until his deathbed to be baptized as a Christian so he didn't have to do anything or have any fruit...just like the thief on the cross. I think a LOT of modern believers have that same kind of pagan mindset as Constantine. They want the benefits...but without having to bear any kind of good fruit. They hate the idea of having to show a holy performance. So then the modern idea is worse than being like Constantine. At least he didn't seek to change the gospel to suit himself as we now do.

…. and which of us gets to judge if the other people are "making the grade?"

 

[Episkopos]

…. and which of us gets to judge if the other people are "making the grade?"

That's not our call. We have enough on our plate to get it right ourselves. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...in the knowledge that God doesn't respect persons. He grades us according to what we have been given. No favourites...just a righteous judgment.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why weren't they allowed to enter the place God had prepared for them and so they instead died in the wilderness? Why would God say it was because of unbelief if the obedience of faith wouldnt have allowed them entrance? They believed enough to step out under the walls of water and He saved them. But they didnt continue to trust Him when He let them become very thirsty to see if they would continue in trust. They did not continue in trust. He gave them 40 years to learn the obedience of trust. Only a few learned the obedience of trust and were allowed to enter the place He had prepared for them.

They were not allowed to enter because of unbelief

From the time they left and the time they died. They complained continually. At the river, which Moses through God split. At the rock, Which God provided water At the other rock, where their unbelief made Moses so mad he disobeyed and because of it was not allowed to enter. In the wilderness when they complained about manna. At the mountain, where they had Arron build a golden calf. Remember arrons rod that Budded?

a history of unbelief, Yes the did the motions (walked through the water drank the water, ate the manna) but it is no different than someone going to church and singing hymes and doing other things, yet in reality they are unbelievers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's so sad that even the trust God saves a man through is now said to not be necessary any longer. At least not past grabbing eternal life for yourself.

Not necessary?

who says this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's not our call. We have enough on our plate to get it right ourselves. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...in the knowledge that God doesn't respect persons. He grades us according to what we have been given. No favourites...just a righteous judgment.

so how do you know you "made the grade"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I mean you believe it is part of the law which doesn't apply to you. That is one reason why you don't accept the lower sin of trespasses.

I'll read the rest tomorrow. This quote is as far as I got. Off to beddy-by.

He does?

Where do you get this idea? I have not seem him claim this. is this not an assumption?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course I haven't read all of this humongous thread, but it is still sad to see so many people thinking their Salvation depends upon their own performance.

Amen

And that their performance could in some way be in a place where they earn the gift of life..