Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Episkopos]

Amen

And that their performance could in some way be in a place where they earn the gift of life..

Actually...we can become worthy of a continuing life based on what we did with God's mercy and gift. That's the truth. So people will have a rebellious attitude towards it. It's only "natural."

 

[marks]

You have plainly stated that it is Jesus obedience that makes God call a man righteous, not the mans trust.

I hardly know what to say.

God chooses to justify the ungodly when they believe Him, trusting Jesus, and He immerses us into Christ, into His obedient death. And through being immersed into Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection, we are reborn, born from God, a new creation. This is our justification, that we are dead to who we were, the man of flesh born from Adam, and alive unto God in Christ. We are separated from our sins, completely and fully forgiven, and separated from the power of the flesh, and are no longer subject to sin's rule in our lives. We have been recreated sharing God's very own nature, righteous, and holy.

We are no longer in the line of Adam's humanity, but are a new humanity in Christ.

God gives us life to share with Him and to overcome the flesh and the world.

To say that our obedience, while required for the abundant life, and not to the Law, but obedience to Christ Himself personally, to say that this will determine our salvation at the end, that we are accepted or rejected based on whehter or not we've been obedience - and who is completely obedient? - is to live according to the the knowledge of good and evil, while Jesus came to give us life, abundant life.

Living according to the knowledge of good and evil, constantly judging, and if done honestly, self-condemning, because we all know when we disobey. Constantly wondering, never knowing, never resting.

Living according to life in Christ is liberty from labor, is to rest in Him, come to Me, and I will give you rest. He who has rested has ceased from his labors. To live according to the Spirit of Life, Who wells up with life inside us, to spill out from us, to shower all around us with blessing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Actually...we can become worthy of a continuing life based on what we did with God's mercy and gift. That's the truth. So people will have a rebellious attitude towards it. It's only "natural."

Is this to say then that receiving a continuing life is based on your having become worthy of it?

 

[Episkopos]

Is this to say then that receiving a continuing life is based on your having become worthy of it?

That's the whole idea of grace. This life is like a changing room...getting on our robes of righteousness. And we are given time to do that...if we are permitted into the race for any length of time.

Grace is not an eternal looking the other way. Grace is for a time. Nobody is going to be judged by grace....but against the grace we have received.

So ten the question is...what has grace made you become? Are you Christ-like? How do you fit in with holiness? Righteousness?

Do you love as Jesus loves?

 

[CharismaticLady]

The righteousness that is by faith is when God deems a man as righteous because he trusts God, believes God. God does not look on trust as filthy rags. We are saved by the kindness of God THROUGH that trust. Otherwise, the apostle would would not have added "through faith."

Hi Grace,
Thanks for responding. And thanks for the paragraphs, I'll answer in order.

I agree with this, but would like to expand it further to what I believe happens. I believe this because it is not only scriptural in Acts 2:38, 2 Peter 1:2-4, and Romans 6 and 8, but because it is what I experienced in my first encounter with Jesus on 2/9/77 when I had no power in myself to let go of my relationship with a married man, and knew I would go to hell if I couldn't overcome this sin that I loved.

When we realize we cannot be righteous in our own power, but want to very much even out of fear, we cry out to Jesus to do it for us. It is at that point we are cleansed of every sin and weakness, and even given a new nature that IS righteous, because it is indwelt with God. That night I prayed Psalms 51:10, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit with in me." I knew it because it was the first line of a song I knew. Long story, short, I felt being filled with the Holy Spirit from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. And instantly I was clean, and the weight of my sin lifted. I felt light as a feather, even looking at my feet to see if they were still on the floor. The purity of Jesus was inside me, and He made ME righteous, and gave ME His power over sin, and even gifts of the Spirit I still have. One of those gifts lets me know God's will to pray effectively to have all my prayers answered. But even though I am righteous, I know it is all because of my precious Jesus and His righteousness who abides in me. With just my old nature, I was pond scum before that.

This is long, so I'll post the next paragraph in a separate post.

 

[marks]

Grace s not an eternal looking the other way. Grace is for a time.

Grace rather is the power of a new life, the life of Jesus in us.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But men have done hideous things to this. Like...they say they only have to trust they will live forever. They do not think that subsequent disobedience of trust (eg: worrying over money, or a lack of it, which is not trusting what our Lord says when tested) is serious. They say, nope, if God could reject me for any subsequent disobedience of trust, if that is a possibility, then He is going back on His word that He saves men through trust. So...continued and growing trust is not necessary to salvation. So they use the trust to "get saved" but then discard it.

I agree, but I think it is due to a lack of understanding and a misinterpretation of the word "grace." God's Grace is not unmerited favor, the word "unmerited" having been added to favor. God is favoring us with His own POWER. We are free from the power of sin, and now have the power of righteousness as a free gift from our repentance unto Christ. It is our turning our whole life from then on over to Christ, and He then empowers us with His own Spirit to live as He lived. We are given the mind of Christ as part of our born again new nature that partakes of the divine nature of Christ.

Israel trusted, God saved them when they stepped under the water in trust, then they did not continue in trust. This displeased Him and so they never entered into what was promised. We repeat the same mistake but think that because Jesus died, we wont face that same fate, even if we do the same exact thing they did - not continue in trust. Was trusting God once, in one thing, enough for Israel? No. He became displeased because they didnt continue in trust. But today, men say that same lack of continued trust in us nets a different result. Israel sure did get the wrong end of the stick, huh?

He will annul this "deal to cheat death." It is a falling away from the faith(trust.)

Yes, I agree. Hebrews 10:39 says if we turn back, My soul has no pleasure in him ... they fall back to perdition. (hell).

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's not why at all.

My reasoning is entirely contained in my understanding of justification, that it is a complete release from sin in all respects.

Much love!

Your understanding of justification, doesn't take into account all scripture.

1 John 3:4-5 shows the type of sin that is taken out of our nature - willful sins of lawlessness. Sins against the royal moral law.

1 John 1:7 shows a person who has gone through becoming a Christian of 1 John 1:9, but do you see the blood of Jesus is still cleansing him of all sin? What sin? According to you - none. I asked the same question, and my eyes were opened to the right questions. So 1 John 1:7 what kind of sins can one commit while walking in the Spirit? Answer??? Well, it is not willful sins of lawlessness. IOW not sins unto death, due to rebellion against God, Himself. There is a hint inside the verse. "We have fellowship with one another." If you read the whole Bible we already know they are unintentional and even willful sins of debt against EACH OTHER. They need to be forgiven and can be as we forgive others, and close the gap to reconciliation. Matthew 6:14-15 tells us they are trespasses.

 

[marks]

Your understanding of justification, doesn't take into account all scripture.

1 John 3:4-5 shows the type of sin that is taken out of our nature - willful sins of lawlessness. Sins against the royal moral law.

1 John 1:7 shows a person who has gone through becoming a Christian of 1 John 1:9, but do you see the blood of Jesus is still cleansing him of all sin? What sin? According to you - none. I asked the same question, and my eyes were opened to the right questions. So 1 John 1:7 what kind of sins can one commit while walking in the Spirit? Answer??? Well, it is not willful sins of lawlessness. IOW not sins unto death, due to rebellion against God, Himself. There is a hint inside the verse. "We have fellowship with one another." If you read the whole Bible we already know they are unintentional and even willful sins of debt against EACH OTHER. They need to be forgiven and can be as we forgive others, and close the gap to reconciliation. Matthew 6:14-15 tells us they are trespasses.

You say that my understanding of Justification doesn't take in all of Scripture, but then you start talking about things other than our justification.

Perhaps if you were to tell me your understanding of "the one who has died is justified away from sin", from Romans 6.

What does that mean to you, to be "justified away from sin"?

"but do you see the blood of Jesus is still cleansing him of all sin? What sin? According to you - none."

No . . . cleansing us of all the sin that still lives in our flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

while walking in the Spirit? Answer??? Well, it is not willful sins of lawlessness.

Sins while walking in the Spirit? I would answer that we do not sin if we are walking in the Spirit. Does walking in the Spirit produce "minor sins"? I don't think that.

I believe sin only results when we stop looking to Jesus for all we need and are and everything, and look somewhere else. Start to wonder, to doubt, to stop walking towards Jesus, and start thinking that maybe I Will drop through these waves!

Those who do not know Jesus have no opportunity to trust Him this way, therefore, all they do is sin. Even the things that look good to us don't look good to God. Because He sees what we don't, the corruption from which those things come from. Dead humanity.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Grace,
Thanks for responding. And thanks for the paragraphs, I'll answer in order.

I agree with this, but would like to expand it further to what I believe happens. I believe this because it is not only scriptural in Acts 2:38, 2 Peter 1:2-4, and Romans 6 and 8, but because it is what I experienced in my first encounter with Jesus on 2/9/77 when I had no power in myself to let go of my relationship with a married man, and knew I would go to hell if I couldn't overcome this sin that I loved.

When we realize we cannot be righteous in our own power, but want to very much even out of fear, we cry out to Jesus to do it for us. It is at that point we are cleansed of every sin and weakness, and even given a new nature that IS righteous, because it is indwelt with God. That night I prayed Psalms 51:10, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit with in me." I knew it because it was the first line of a song I knew. Long story, short, I felt being filled with the Holy Spirit from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. And instantly I was clean, and the weight of my sin lifted. I felt light as a feather, even looking at my feet to see if they were still on the floor. The purity of Jesus was inside me, and He made ME righteous, and gave ME His power over sin, and even gifts of the Spirit I still have. One of those gifts lets me know God's will to pray effectively to have all my prayers answered. But even though I am righteous, I know it is all because of my precious Jesus and His righteousness who abides in me. With just my old nature, I was pond scum before that.

This is long, so I'll post the next paragraph in a separate post.

If we cant be righteous in our own power, how was abraham righteous? How was Job righteous? For that matter how did the man who prayed have mercy on me, a sinner, go away justified/righteous, according to God? He was a sinner and yet he went away deemed righteous by God.

Please bear in mind that I am talking about the righteousness that is by trust that a man can do. When I say I am not righteous like God is righteous, it does not mean that I cannot learn more humility and more honesty and grow in trust as I am led by the Spirit. But i will not lie and say i am just as righteous and holy as Jesus when i can plainly see i am not. What would be the point of lying? I would rather walk in the truth and humble myself before God. It's the smart thing to do.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That higher level of law is Love. Two commandments. Trust Jesus and love others. Everything is comlete in those. And aiming for something else will necessarily be less. Not to say you should break the 10 Commandments, for instance, but if that's your rule of thumb, then its a lessor rule than the rule of love. All the law we need really concern ourselves is with the law of love.

Here is what I didn't get to last night. Took a while to find it. LOL

I agree. When you love someone, you forgive them, and are not sarcastic against them. That is perfect love. This is where I believe we have to work a little harder to not grieve or quench the Spirit. If you are already there, great. I try to be like Jesus and not speak at all in my defense when it is obvious there is no hope of getting through, and just leave, lest I say something less than perfect love. I have a situation (in real life, not forum life) that I still need to reconcile. I don't think reconciliation means I'll hang out with that person, or go back to his Bible study. Forgiveness, doesn't mean trust, and put yourself in the same situation of abuse. Just not holding on to a grudge. What do you think. I need help. I think I may tell his mother-in-law to tell him I forgive him, and leave it at that. Just so he knows so he can feel healing. It seems that even though no one in the Bible study group came to my defense or said a word and just let him yell on and on, the Bible study seemed to end after years of meeting every Thursday night. I didn't go back, but found out that no one else did either. Personally, from experience, when something like this happens at a leadership level, God's hand of blessing lifts.

And seriously . . . as we've been freed from sin, why not go on to just concern ourselves with making sure we fulfill love to each other? I can check myself against the Mosaic Covenant Law, but I can easily fool myself that way, thinking, OK, I'm doing this, not doing that, but what about love? And what about letting Jesus be the judge? Because seriously, the standard is an awful lot higher than what can be written down I think.

Of course it is higher. The Ten Commandments were so easy to keep. You just didn't let your hate evolve to murder, or your lust to actual adultery, or your coveting to actual theft. Willpower, even in the carnal nature. Just knowledge. That is why I believe the Sermon on the Mount was about how the New Covenant is so much higher than the "you have heard it said of old..." Don't get me wrong. The Ten Commandments was based on the eternal law of love, but it left out the Spirit of Love. It merely had to do with outward actions, not what you may fantasize in your heart.

We are all different, in different circumstances, and in this situation, a certain thing is love, and other things are not, and if I am loving as God intends me to be, then I'm resting in Him, He's working through me, because I'm sacrificing myself, and what I might want to do.

True love that is part of our new nature, doesn't even want to. That is where we have to work out our own salvation. Look at the list in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Love is the last thing that becomes an actuality toward perfection; whereas it is the first fruit of the Spirit given. That would be a great study to discuss on here. You are given the power to love, but it needs many trials to be perfected.

No written code will specify that I write this way or that way. But we all know there are ways to say things to get our little digs in. But real love doesn't even go there.

Wouldn't it be great if everybody on here practiced that, including myself? LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

If we cant be righteous in our own power, how was abraham righteous? How was Job righteous? For that matter how did the man who prayed have mercy on me, a sinner, go away justified/righteous, according to God? He was a sinner and yet he went away deemed righteous by God.

Even children trust their parents. I think that was the kind of relationship God built with Abraham. Abraham believed every word out of the mouth of God. And yes, we can do that in our own power. I trusted that Jesus was stronger than I was. But just knowing that didn't save me. I had to act on that. When you act on what God says, say, over your earthly father, that is righteousness.

Please bear in mind that I am talking about the righteousness that is by trust that a man can do. When I say I am not righteous like God is righteous, it does not mean that I cannot learn more humility and more honesty and grow in trust as I am led by the Spirit. But i will not lie and say i am just as righteous and holy as Jesus when i can plainly see i am not. What would be the point of lying? I would rather walk in the truth and humble myself before God. It's the smart thing to do.

Perfect love is perfection. I'm not there yet, even though I have the Holy Spirit indwelling me and empowering me. I just wrote about this to our friend, marks, above. Read it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You say that my understanding of Justification doesn't take in all of Scripture, but then you start talking about things other than our justification.

Perhaps if you were to tell me your understanding of "the one who has died is justified away from sin", from Romans 6.

What does that mean to you, to be "justified away from sin"?

"but do you see the blood of Jesus is still cleansing him of all sin? What sin? According to you - none."

No . . . cleansing us of all the sin that still lives in our flesh.

Much love!

Romans 6 is in the middle of Paul's 8 chapter teaching on THE LAW. Thus, willful sins of lawlessness - sins unto death, is what Paul is talking about.

When you read Paul's list of sins of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21, I don't find anything there I do, or even want to do.

I think the sins we still commit while walking in the Spirit, are just lack of perfection. Anything less than perfection is some type of sin, wouldn't you say?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sins while walking in the Spirit? I would answer that we do not sin if we are walking in the Spirit. Does walking in the Spirit produce "minor sins"? I don't think that.

I do. Even though I believe all our sins of lawlessness are taken out of our nature and we are justified and sanctified, I believe we go through the process of glorification that leads to perfection - if you live that long... But, still, if you are on that road, even if you die without full knowledge you are saved as long as your conscience is clear. 1 John 3:21-24.

I believe sin only results when we stop looking to Jesus for all we need and are and everything, and look somewhere else. Start to wonder, to doubt, to stop walking towards Jesus, and start thinking that maybe I Will drop through these waves!

It took me a while to learn that anxiety or worry was a sin. When that knowledge was truly revealed to me, I stopped worrying. I even go to bed during tornado warnings. Besides, I know where I'll be if I get killed. It is also why I stayed in a dangerous marriage. Same reason. But worry is not the only weakness that produces sin. I'm sure more and more will be revealed to me that I'll have to work on and God will keep perfecting me. Being quicker to forgive is one thing I'm working on. What's next, Lord? I'm sure He'll tell me.

Those who do not know Jesus have no opportunity to trust Him this way, therefore, all they do is sin. Even the things that look good to us don't look good to God. Because He sees what we don't, the corruption from which those things come from. Dead humanity.

That's a given. I agree.

 

[marks]

Here is what I didn't get to last night. Took a while to find it. LOL

I agree. When you love someone, you forgive them, and are not sarcastic against them. That is perfect love. This is where I believe we have to work a little harder to not grieve or quench the Spirit. If you are already there, great. I try to be like Jesus and not speak at all in my defense when it is obvious there is no hope of getting through, and just leave, lest I say something less than perfect love. I have a situation (in real life, not forum life) that I still need to reconcile. I don't think reconciliation means I'll hang out with that person, or go back to his Bible study. Forgiveness, doesn't mean trust, and put yourself in the same situation of abuse. Just not holding on to a grudge. What do you think. I need help. I think I may tell his mother-in-law to tell him I forgive him, and leave it at that. Just so he knows so he can feel healing. It seems that even though no one in the Bible study group came to my defense or said a word and just let him yell on and on, the Bible study seemed to end after years of meeting every Thursday night. I didn't go back, but found out that no one else did either. Personally, from experience, when something like this happens at a leadership level, God's hand of blessing lifts.



Of course it is higher. The Ten Commandments were so easy to keep. You just didn't let your hate evolve to murder, or your lust to actual adultery, or your coveting to actual theft. Willpower, even in the carnal nature. Just knowledge. That is why I believe the Sermon on the Mount was about how the New Covenant is so much higher than the "you have heard it said of old..." Don't get me wrong. The Ten Commandments was based on the eternal law of love, but it left out the Spirit of Love. It merely had to do with outward actions, not what you may fantasize in your heart.



True love that is part of our new nature, doesn't even want to. That is where we have to work out our own salvation. Look at the list in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Love is the last thing that becomes an actuality toward perfection; whereas it is the first fruit of the Spirit given. That would be a great study to discuss on here. You are given the power to love, but it needs many trials to be perfected.



Wouldn't it be great if everybody on here practiced that, including myself? LOL

Excellent post! I want to reread a few times before making more of a response.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And in trying to win God's acceptence, or to convince Him to keeps us, that replaces, rather than enhances a true life lived in Christ.

Because Christ in me is not trying to make sure that I'm accepted by God. God accepts me because I'm His child, in Christ born from above. And now we can live! But if I'm spending my life trying to make sure I'm accepted . . .

It's kind of like George Soros spending his days scraping two rocks together hoping to get enough metal out to sell so he can pay his bills. How much money does that guy have? Yet even this example falls short!

Much love!

God purchased us with a price..

To deny us as the word says is to deny himself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Mark's said obedience was not necessary.

he does?

He thinks obedience to Gods word in the gospel is not necessary?

Marks did you say this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We first receive His life and Spirit by sheer mercy. Nobody deserves mercy or grace. But then what we do with it can either be good or bad. So we will all be judged at the end for what we have done for what we have been given.

The longer we have to live out the Christian life, the more fruit will be expected.

so again, how do you know if you made it?

Do you live your life in fear hoping you make it. or do you know

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually...we can become worthy of a continuing life based on what we did with God's mercy and gift. That's the truth. So people will have a rebellious attitude towards it. It's only "natural."

so we can become worthy of eternal life?

please explain how. and where it gives us these conditions in the word